Controversy at state softball
- Thread starter kaz36_rivals189319
- Start date
Thank you for this post. And I agree, it's a quirk that does make the game interesting.
Once again, Malcolm did not cheat. The fact that all 3 officials saw it happen is absolute proof that no rules were broken.
I didn't see how far this coach went on Twitter. I'm only aware of the first Tweet that he made in response to the Administrator from Bishop Neumann. I liked that Tweet because he was trying to protect his player by shifting the accountability to himself.
He must have gone on with more Tweets that were a little more questionable.
would like to know what he said as well because all though I dont agree with the strategy It was far from the issue everyone is making it, might be bigger if they would have won but they didnt and I dont think I have every seen this much crying over something has I have on this issue
It's a very "unusual" play that we just don't see very often. It's unusual because it is such a low reward play. To trade a base runner standing on 3rd base for a trick play that SHOULD never work...that's why we almost never see this play.
The coaches Tweets must have been much more controversial than that one I am aware of.
I think, at the end there, we were making progress. You're trying to argue the inarguable. Everyone knows the rules. Everyone knows that the rules forbid missing bases. You're desperately trying to conflate enforcement with legality. The enforcement of that rule never made any sense to me, but that does not change the illegality of missing bases intentionally as this scummy program did or inadvertently. If it wasn't "against the rules" zero controversy. You're intentionally, for whatever motive, trying to muddy the waters. You're wrong. it's cheating.
If it was cheating, the 3 umpires (that all admitted seeing it happen in real time) would have called the base runner out.
Explain to me why none of the 3 umpires called the base runner out. They watched it happen. Why didn't they call the out if it was cheating or against a rule?
I am not muddying the water. I'm trying to explain a very misunderstood rule of the game.
It was 100% intentional and 100% cheating. You can blah blah all you want, it's still cheating. Coach with some integrity
Why didn't the 3 umpires (all admitted that they saw it happen) do something about it? You can blah blah all you want, just answer that question while you are at it.
Integrity, I agree. I would never instruct a player to do this. Respect for the game, integrity, call it whatever.
100% teaching the player to take a short cut, so it would be an infraction of the rules.
Why don’t call it immediately? Because some rules require the appeal to enforce the penalty for the rules infraction. Ex: when a base runner on a sac fly leaves before the ball is caught and the umpires see this happen. Until there is an appeal, the umpires don’t voice that they saw the infraction.
The coach would most likely be working still as the coach for 2023 if he hadn’t bragged about the play. Don’t know the coach and likely never will, but came across here as arrogant and willing to teach ethically shaky is good when his position as a coach would make that seem wrong.
Why don’t call it immediately? Because some rules require the appeal to enforce the penalty for the rules infraction. Ex: when a base runner on a sac fly leaves before the ball is caught and the umpires see this happen. Until there is an appeal, the umpires don’t voice that they saw the infraction.
The coach would most likely be working still as the coach for 2023 if he hadn’t bragged about the play. Don’t know the coach and likely never will, but came across here as arrogant and willing to teach ethically shaky is good when his position as a coach would make that seem wrong.
Excellent explanation. Ethically shaky, sure.
The appeal for a missed base is exactly the same as a base runner leaving early on a fly ball.
anyone have those be interested to see if what he said is why he got fired
Again, you're arguing (and showing your character) about enforcement. The cheating and illegality isn't in question. It is, flat out, cheating, and quite illegal. It isn't a "loophole". It's cheating. I'm glad he got fired.
Softball and Baseball are unique sports in that the opposing team is responsible for upholding some of the rules. Illegal substitution is another example. If you want to send your #5 hitter to the plate instead of your #9 hitter, it's my responsibility as a coach to uphold the rule by appealing to the home plate umpire when this happens. If I don't catch it, play goes on.
You have a problem with these rules, so you cry foul. I get it, and don't necessarily disagree. I wouldn't have liked it either, and said so in my first post.
I'm done arguing with you. I've made my point, and you know it.
Some "point".
I can't wait until I violate a traffic law and the pursuit policies of some jurisdiction prevent pursuit...I can just scream "it ain't illegal". In your time not arguing your...point, you may wish to study up on vocabulary. Maybe start with "cheating" ? With your attitude towards rules, I'm certainly glad I'm not in business with you, or that you aren't anywhere near a classroom. Dude taught cheating, rightfully lost his job. Makes me happy.A coach attempted to score a run on a marginal type of play, happens all the time in other sports, coaches try to get an advantage, a parent from the winning team went crazy and now a coach is out of a job, this is part of what is wrong, discipline the coach internally and move on. Lets move on from this, not the biggest thing in the world. I do wonder if Malcolm schools ties to the NSAA have anything to do with the coach being terminated??
Like others have said, it was the attitude and demeanor of this coach that made his firing inevitable, and, imo, richly justitified. Cheating happens. Everybody looks for an "edge". Generally, though it's done by skirting the rules, not intentionally full out breaking of them. But to gloat about it, to pretend it isn't cheating, to basically give integrity, honesty, sportsmanship, etc. a "screw you, I got away with it and I'll do it again" shout out...yeah, glad he's done. It isn't mortal combat, not life or death. It's HS sports. To cheat is unsavory, to wallow in the cheating is not allowable. I'm glad Malcolm did the right thing.
Nobody agrees with what the coach did and maybe he didn't handle it well. They lost the game, the takeaway is cheating does not win/pay off. Firing is not always the answer but in today's society you are not entitles to a mistake, you have to be canceled. Malcolm probably didn't want to deal with the backlash from private school cancel culture.
Malcolm will be just fine in finding a new coach with their history of success and proximity to Lincoln. In speaking to a buddy his comment was, prior to this none of you paid attention the program, or you'd have an idea that the whole thing was a lot more than 1 play, 1 response, ect. It had very very little to do with cancel culture from a private school that Malcolm plays in several activities. It also had nothing to do with Malcolm's "ties" to the NSAA...did the "ties" to the NSAA have anything to do with things at Gretna, Norfolk Catholic, or any of the other schools where employees have family?
Integrity and teaching kids to play the right way matters. This did not do that and then bragged about it to a mom on social media. Not a good look for the school. Malcolm did the right thing by cutting ties in my opinion. Its about more than wins and losses.
Gretna and Norfolk Catholic used a legal play that was not protested by coaches?Not sure what you are referring to? But maybe your “buddy” told you something. I love how everyone wants to throw the coach under the bus for all kinds of things prior to this play, he made a decision in a game that was not good, but let’s not make it worse than it is.
But also could be a learning opportunity, not everyone has to be fired, give some time to pass and people can be reasonable and realize a mistake was made,
Totally agree. The problem in this case was that no learning was done, nor was it conceivable that any would take place. Bragging about how smart you are when you get away breaking the rules, at best, is completely tone deaf. Dude cheated. Intentionally. Then because he wasn't caught, tried to brag. Pay stupid games, get stupid prizes...
The coach should not have gone to Twitter. The coach represents the school and the school looks bad when it comes to this with a coach going off on social media. That isn't cancel culture, that's Malcolm trying to fix a situation that was caused by the coach. I applaud MPS for doing what they did.
He should be held responsible. I don't blame the Malcolm school district at all for letting him go.
He should be held responsible. I don't blame the Malcolm school district at all for letting him go.
Spot on. If he doesn't spout off on social media he still has a job. It's that simple. He dug his own grave. Further, if he doesn't go on social media most of us never even hear about this. The reason it blew up was because of his posts.
Don't almost all coaches likely at some point in the season have a talk with their players about social media?
People say this all the time, but I think today's society is more dominated by people AGGRESSIVELY doing stupid **** and then bitching about being canceled when called on it. I hear "canceled", I instantly think "excuse." This coach had zero contrition, zero remorse, zero common sense in his actions or response. Didn't show one iota of willingness to learn or modify his behavior. How can it be a learning experience if the individual refuses to acknowledge there was an issue in the first place? All he demonstrated was that he'd absolutely do it again if presented with the same opportunity.
Those schools have NSAA employees with children or family in them. Schools don't make decisions based on "closeness" to the NSAA was the point. Remember the NSAA is a governing body that is operated and run by the member schools.
Excellent point. The schools are making the decisions, the NSAA is simply carrying out their wishes.
Absolutely. This coach could have saved his job if he had stayed away from Twitter.
Exactly. Unless of course, there are things we don't know, the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. If that were the case he simply gave his enemies the rope...
because nobody asked for a appeal, i'm a softball umpire, i have to wait until the coach asks for a appeal before i can do anything about the situation.
That is exactly my point! This play does not become an illegal play until the missed base appeal is granted by an umpire.
Thank You!
By the way, how do you view this from an umpire's perspective? Is it cheating? Is it a legal play that comes with great risk?
Once again, as a coach, I would never try this play.
You are splitting hairs. Given the fact that you would never try this play, I'm not really sure why you want to die on the hill of saying it's not an illegal play. Who cares? I think the results speak for themselves. The guy is LITERALLY fired and you're still over here with your rule book arguing that its a legal play. What would be the "correct" way to use this play since its "technically" legal? Do it and then show the correct amount of remorse and contrition later even though it's legal (because you know you'll be ID'd as a cheating scumbag and you don't want to get fired)? No. The takeaway here is that NO coach EVER should teach or use this play.
I wonder if this is the difference in club or summer ball and a paid position and the expectations of a school job ? I think it is
Interpretation of rules IS splitting hairs.
I would never try it because it is an extremely low percentage of success. The chance of me squeezing a runner at 3rd is probably 20 times better than not getting caught trying this trick play.
Who cares? You do. You replied.
The guy was LITERALLY fired because he crossed a line in his Twitter interactions and was also on borrowed time before the Twitter incident. The school administration clearly stated this.
There is no correct way to use this play. It is a foolish gamble.
The takeaway, I agree with you. I would add to the takeaway by saying that when your team is playing defense, you better be paying attention. You better coach your players to watch their base as runners pass by. You better teach your assistant coaches to watch the bases. This was an obvious case of missing a base, but the rule itself is no different if the base runner had missed the base by 6 inches, or left 1/2 a step early on a Tag Up. If the missed base had been appealed, none of this would have ever happened.
You misunderstand - I absolutely care when someone is making a ridiculous hair-splitting argument. It's hilarious to me that your argument is 100% the same as the fired coach whose statement said the play "breaks zero rules." He doesn't get it, and neither do you. So to clarify, what I don't care about is whether the play is technically legal or not. If the only reason you wouldn't use the play is because you don't like the odds of success then you probably shouldn't be coaching either.
To do something like this on purpose and hoping to not get caught is wrong. In my opinion it is also wrong to not teach your infielders to keep an eye on baserunners to ensure that they touch the base. It is also wrong to not educate your players how to appeal when a baserunner misses a base.
