Multiplier/waiver

[Corey90]

I don’t understand this reply to my post. When you quote a message and reply, it’s generally understood that you are replying directly to that message.
Nothing about what you posted has anything to do with what you replied to.
You are a complicated guy

Sorry Dr. wasn’t replying to your post. Replying to one of the guys you replied too.
We’re all good this is fun discussion. We’re all just silly adults trying to give our opinions. In the end we make no decisions on what is going to happen. We’re all keyboard guys.

 

[IceConGuy]

How about instead of a multiplier, the private schools take the enrollment of the school district they are located in? Not sure how that would work for the schools that are in the city. If they can't win x playoff games in y years, they are lowered 1 class from the publics enrollment. I'm sure the 1A-5A people would love this. The small privates not so much. BTW, a lot of innuendos going on the last week. Not sure how the 6A-8A public, private, or both would feel. There would be no actual math. Math hurts peoples brains.

 

[Doctor_D]

How about instead of a multiplier, the private schools take the enrollment of the school district they are located in? Not sure how that would work for the schools that are in the city. If they can't win x playoff games in y years, they are lowered 1 class from the publics enrollment. I'm sure the 1A-5A people would love this. The small privates not so much. BTW, a lot of innuendos going on the last week. Not sure how the 6A-8A public, private, or both would feel. There would be no actual math. Math hurts peoples brains.

I kinda like the multiplier tied to playoff results from past 5 years. Whether that’s quarters or semis…. Of course it’s not perfect. It’s hard to predict future success, so the past is probably all we’ve got. My one problem is that it doesn’t take into account teams that just miss the playoffs like my IC example in the original post. The conference multiplier is interesting too.
I don’t want the computers involved. Calpreps had Montini as a home underdog vs Wilmington. As a die hard Wilmo fan, I knew that was way off base. Wilmo would have had to have been fully healthy (which they weren’t) and play a perfect game just to be in it.

 

[Corey90]

I kinda like the multiplier tied to playoff results from past 5 years. Whether that’s quarters or semis…. Of course it’s not perfect. It’s hard to predict future success, so the past is probably all we’ve got. My one problem is that it doesn’t take into account teams that just miss the playoffs like my IC example in the original post. The conference multiplier is interesting too.
I don’t want the computers involved. Calpreps had Montini as a home underdog vs Wilmington. As a die hard Wilmo fan, I knew that was way off base. Wilmo would have had to have been fully healthy (which they weren’t) and play a perfect game just to be in it.

Conference multipler would be like the Wild Wild West. I mean you’re going to multiply each and every conference. No way. IMO

 

[Snetsrak61]

Conference multipler would be like the Wild Wild West. I mean you’re going to multiply each and every conference. No way. IMO

I think a best case scenario would be a formula that divides 10% of conferences, multiplies 10% and leave 80% alone.

 

[Corey90]

I think a best case scenario would be a formula that divides 10% of conferences, multiplies 10% and leave 80% alone.

I get it but. How would that be fair? Just saying.

 

[Snetsrak61]

I get it but. How would that be fair? Just saying.

Vibes?

Partially inspired by football enrollment and partially by other proposals I've seen to classify CCL/ESCC as a unique conference. Which I kind of understood, but there's also a few other conferences putting out a lot of good ball. And some putting out some week ball. It feels like there's some good evidence that teams play up/down according to their regular season schedule... At least a theory. But straight Football enrollment would also do some of that.

 

[SouthofI80Fan]

Vibes?

Partially inspired by football enrollment and partially by other proposals I've seen to classify CCL/ESCC as a unique conference. Which I kind of understood, but there's also a few other conferences putting out a lot of good ball. And some putting out some week ball. It feels like there's some good evidence that teams play up/down according to their regular season schedule... At least a theory. But straight Football enrollment would also do some of that.

Football Enrollment would solve a lot of the issues for the small private schools who play in larger conferences. Puts them in a class that matches their competition throughout the season.

 

[Alexander33]

Not trying to be a Debbie downer but!
This is way over doing it. There is no way a HS level organization is going to be able to control or handle what is being suggested.
You have to make it easy or it’s not going to happen. This is HS not college or the Pros where they have unlimited money resources.
Not saying you aren’t thinking outside the box but it’s not going to work if they have to hire staff to monitor every situation.

The proposal I offered consisted of five sentences. It is simpler and easier to administer than what the IHSA does now.

 

[Alexander33]

I don’t like any system that moves a program like Chicago Christian up after one year of success.

Although the proposal I offered would apply the multiplier to Chicago Christian after their championship run, it would not apply a success factor.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Casual fans overlook the fact that the 2A, 3A and 4A champs were heavily tested by public schools in earlier rounds.

Casual fans also have short memories. Who remembers these title games?

2023
Wilmington 28 Athens 3
Byron 69 Mt Carmel 7

2022
Lena Winslow 30 Camp Point Central 8
ESL 57 Prairie Ridge 7

2021
Wilmington 24 Nashville 7
Byron 35 Tolono 7
Wheaton North 35 St Rita 6
Lockport 24 Maine South 6

The above games are obviously a selection, so, please, no Einsteins are needed to tell me what I forgot to include. The common elements in the above list are:
1. Losing team scoring in the single digits AND
2. Margin of victory of at least 3 scores AND
3. Winning team being a public school.

I could have loosened up the list criteria a little more and/or tinkered with the Boolean operators (get it? and/or?) to add more games to the list, but I feel like the point is sufficiently made that there are blowouts or dud games over Thanksgiving weekend pretty much each and every year. Furthermore, they are not limited to private schools defeating public schools.

All the angst and knee jerk reaction on the part of public school apologists this year conveniently ignores that our championships are rarely, if ever, all close games. The angst is born out of a long established double standard that holds that it's okay for public schools to beat up on public or private schools in the playoffs, but not okay when it's private schools beating public schools. It's the same double standard that says it's okay when public schools like Rochester or ESL or WWS or Carthage put together long runs of extraordinary playoff success, but private schools that do the same need to be success factored and multiplied.

Give me the NIPL.

 

[Jiggs]

championships are rarely, if ever, all close games.

If the IHSA separates Public and Private schools, nothing will change and blowouts will continue on Championship weekends because of the method the IHSA has chosen to structure the tournament.

For example, and I am not telling anything that the most casual fan doesn't know, for the last two years the 3A championship was determined when Byron played Montini which was prior to the championship game.

 

[Corey90]

Casual fans also have short memories. Who remembers these title games?

2023
Wilmington 28 Athens 3
Byron 69 Mt Carmel 7

2022
Lena Winslow 30 Camp Point Central 8
ESL 57 Prairie Ridge 7

2021
Wilmington 24 Nashville 7
Byron 35 Tolono 7
Wheaton North 35 St Rita 6
Lockport 24 Maine South 6

The above games are obviously a selection, so, please, no Einsteins are needed to tell me what I forgot to include. The common elements in the above list are:
1. Losing team scoring in the single digits AND
2. Margin of victory of at least 3 scores AND
3. Winning team being a public school.

I could have loosened up the list criteria a little more and/or tinkered with the Boolean operators (get it? and/or?) to add more games to the list, but I feel like the point is sufficiently made that there are blowouts or dud games over Thanksgiving weekend pretty much each and every year. Furthermore, they are not limited to private schools defeating public schools.

All the angst and knee jerk reaction on the part of public school apologists this year conveniently ignores that our championships are rarely, if ever, all close games. The angst is born out of a long established double standard that holds that it's okay for public schools to beat up on public or private schools in the playoffs, but not okay when it's private schools beating public schools. It's the same double standard that says it's okay when public schools like Rochester or ESL or WWS or Carthage put together long runs of extraordinary playoff success, but private schools that do the same need to be success factored and multiplied.

Give me the NIPL.

I agree with you Ramblinman I don’t like the complaining but as long as privates can recruit a 30 mile radius plublics will be at a slightly disadvantage. I am not saying a lot needs to be tweaked to make the playoffs better. Increase the multiplier a little maybe instead of 1.65 make it 2.00? I like the idea of any school public or private that’s wins state 2 years in a row gets bumped up a class. If they win the next year they get bumped up again. If they lose they drop a class.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I agree with you Ramblinman I don’t like the complaining but as long as privates can recruit a 30 mile radius plublics will be at a slightly disadvantage. I am not saying a lot needs to be tweaked to make the playoffs better. Increase the multiplier a little maybe instead of 1.65 make it 2.00? I like the idea of any school public or private that’s wins state 2 years in a row gets bumped up a class. If they win the next year they get bumped up again. If they lose they drop a class.

I'm done. I'm done with the whining that Will. Never. End. no matter what is done to make public schools more competitive relative to private schools. I'm done arguing that the 30 mile radius is a private school advantage when I'm old enough to remember when there was no radius. I'm done with bending over and enduring the discriminatory IHSA spankings simply because of extraordinary success. I'm done with the double standard that celebrates public school success but discounts private school success.

It was a nice ride, but I'm done. Public school apologists have ruined a good thing. As much as I've enjoyed great rivalries like LA against LWE, MS, NT, etc. over the years, I'd rather not have them if it means that I no longer have to endure the constant whining and attempts to penalize private schools because of their success.

All that public schools apologists have ever wanted is watered down playoffs so their schools won't lose to private ones. Well, now I want complete separation so those folks can have their way. For them to argue that private schools should stay and endure more and more IHSA competitive sanctions (because that's what they really are) to make private schools less competitive relative to public ones is perverted. It's like them saying, "Please stay so we can penalize you and then finally win every game against you because there will be no end to our whining until that happens."

No thanks. Give me the NIPL. Enjoy the watered down playoffs.

 

[4Afan]

I'm done. I'm done with the whining that Will. Never. End. no matter what is done to make public schoole more competitive relative to private schools. I'm done arguing that the 30 mile radius is a private school advantage when I'm old enough to remember when there was no radius. I'm done with bending over and enduring the discriminatory IHSA spankings simply because of extraordinary success. I'm done with the double standard that celebrates public school success but discounts private school success.

It was a nice ride, but I'm done. Public school apologists have ruined a good thing. As much as I've enjoyed great rivalries like LA against LWE, MS, NT, etc. over the years, I'd rather not have them if it means that I no longer have to endure the constant whining and attempts to penalize private schools because of their success.

All that public schools apologists have ever wanted is watered down playoffs so their schools won't lose to private ones. Well, now I want complete separation so those folks can have their way. For them to argue that private schools should stay and endure more and more IHSA competitive sanctions (because that's what they really are) to make private schools less competitive relative to public ones is perverted. It's like them saying, "Please stay so we can penalize you and then finally win every game against you because there will be no end to our whining until that happens."

No thanks. Give me the NIPL. Enjoy the watered down playoffs.

 

[Corey90]

I'm done. I'm done with the whining that Will. Never. End. no matter what is done to make public schoole more competitive relative to private schools. I'm done arguing that the 30 mile radius is a private school advantage when I'm old enough to remember when there was no radius. I'm done with bending over and enduring the discriminatory IHSA spankings simply because of extraordinary success. I'm done with the double standard that celebrates public school success but discounts private school success.

It was a nice ride, but I'm done. Public school apologists have ruined a good thing. As much as I've enjoyed great rivalries like LA against LWE, MS, NT, etc. over the years, I'd rather not have them if it means that I no longer have to endure the constant whining and attempts to penalize private schools because of their success.

All that public schools apologists have ever wanted is watered down playoffs so their schools won't lose to private ones. Well, now I want complete separation so those folks can have their way. For them to argue that private schools should stay and endure more and more IHSA competitive sanctions (because that's what they really are) to make private schools less competitive relative to public ones is perverted. It's like them saying, "Please stay so we can penalize you and then finally win every game against you because there will be no end to our whining until that happens."

No thanks. Give me the NIPL. Enjoy the watered down playoffs.

You’re going on a tangent about something you or I have no control over. As long as recruiting is allowed by privates there will always be a difference. Honestly both of us have been around long enough to know this will never be agreed upon. Privates have there view and publics have there view. I don’t want them to split. Honestly my suggestion doesn’t affect Loyola because they are in 8A already and there is no higher class. All I am saying is to make the lower classes more competitive public or privates. You’re so blind about privates view that you can’t be objective about the public view.

 

[Snetsrak61]

Just a question. If we form the NIPL, how do we feel about granting East St Louis status as "northern" and "private"

I can think of a few others, but let's create a fun league if we're dreaming. Not an overly esclusionary one.

 

[Doctor_D]

If the IHSA separates Public and Private schools, nothing will change and blowouts will continue on Championship weekends because of the method the IHSA has chosen to structure the tournament.

For example, and I am not telling anything that the most casual fan doesn't know, for the last two years the 3A championship was determined when Byron played Montini which was prior to the championship game.

Yes a large part of the “problem” with non competitive title games has nothing to do with PvP.

In 2023 @ramblinman referenced Wilmington and Byron as non competitive title games. Wilmo was borderline competitive, but they did need to pull one out of the fire and survive OT in the quarterfinals. Byron had their de facto title game in the semis.
In 2021, Byron pulled off back to back last second miracle jobs in the quarterfinals vs Reed-Custer, then in the semis vs IC.

A large part of the problem is of a bracketing and seeding nature.

 

[Doctor_D]

Just a question. If we form the NIPL, how do we feel about granting East St Louis status as "northern" and "private"

I can think of a few others, but let's create a fun league if we're dreaming. Not an overly esclusionary one.

What happens to the small rural private schools under the NIPL?

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Just a question. If we form the NIPL, how do we feel about granting East St Louis status as "northern" and "private"

I can think of a few others, but let's create a fun league if we're dreaming. Not an overly esclusionary one.

Agreed as long as any public school NIPL member signs an agreement up front stating that as soon as they whine they are expelled.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

What happens to the small rural private schools under the NIPL?

They are free to join if they want. Sorry, no multiplier for urban private schools.

Or, they could stay in the IHSA if they want and be multiplied and success factored into submission.

 

[Snetsrak61]

Agreed as long as any public school NIPL member signs an agreement up front stating that as soon as they whine they are expelled.

INWAAA

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

As long as recruiting is allowed by privates there will always be a difference.

Recruiting allowed by privates? What?

Private schools don't have the ability to allow recruiting. They do have the responsibility to adhere to certain IHSA rules with respect to athletic recruiting. If you are aware of any private schools breaking those rules, report them to the IHSA.

Honestly my suggestion doesn’t affect Loyola because they are in 8A already and there is no higher class.

For the record, Loyola is a 7A sized school that has petitioned to play up in 8A in those years when they aren't otherwise multiplied or success factored into it.

You’re so blind about privates view that you can’t be objective about the public view.

What do you mean by that? That if I were more objective about the public view I would somehow be more tolerant of attempts to make the lower classes more competitive on the backs of sanctioned private schools? Thanks, but no thanks.

Do you realize how hollow your position is when Rochester gets to dominate 4A for basically an entire decade and nobody says boo about it? Or when Le-Win, Wilmington, and Byron absolutely crush their opponents in 1A, 2A, and 3A title games and nobody bats an eye?

Do you know how two faced your position is that you all of the sudden have seen the light about competitive balance in the lower classes in the first year in most folks' memories that private schools ran the table in those classes?

 

[Corey90]

They are free to join if they want. Sorry, no multiplier for urban private schools.

Or, they could stay in the IHSA if they want and be multiplied and success factored into submission.

Recruiting allowed by privates? What?

Private schools don't have the ability to allow recruiting. They do have the responsibility to adhere to certain IHSA rules with respect to athletic recruiting. If you are aware of any private schools breaking those rules, report them to the IHSA.



For the record, Loyola is a 7A sized school that has petitioned to play up in 8A in those years when they aren't otherwise multiplied or success factored into it.



What do you mean by that? That if I were more objective about the public view I would somehow be more tolerant of attempts to make the lower classes more competitive on the backs of sanctioned private schools? Thanks, but no thanks.

Do you realize how hollow your position is when Rochester gets to dominate 4A for basically an entire decade and nobody says boo about it? Or when Le-Win, Wilmington, and Byron absolutely crush their opponents in 1A, 2A, and 3A title games and nobody bats an eye?

Do you know how two faced your position is that you all of the sudden have seen the light about competitive balance in the lower classes in the first year in most folks' memories that private schools ran the table in those classes?

It doesn’t matter if they are not breaking any current rules it’s still not a level playing field. Its ironic that teams like LA have these huge players on the entire team. Do you think these guys just walked through the doors one day and said hi I am here. Public schools get what they get in there district. Some of the kids in there district go to privates. I know Privates have to recruit to keep the doors open but don’t think for a minute many of those football players aren’t hand picked. I have witnessed private coaches at you games and talk to the entire team and then talk one on one with some of the best players.
Ramblinman I really don’t care. Understand both sides but you act like everyone on here is trying to pick on the privates. I and others are just trying to make things better for the entire state. Public or private,

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

It doesn’t matter if they are not breaking any current rules it’s still not a level playing field. Its ironic that teams like LA have these huge players on the entire team. Do you think these guys just walked through the doors one day and said hi I am here. Public schools get what they get in there district. Some of the kids in there district go to privates. I know Privates have to recruit to keep the doors open but don’t think for a minute many of those football players aren’t hand picked. I have witnessed private coaches at you games and talk to the entire team and then talk one on one with some of the best players.
Ramblinman I really don’t care. Understand both sides but you act like everyone on here is trying to pick on the privates. I and others are just trying to make things better for the entire state. Public or private,

So glad you are on board with making things better for both public and private. Me too. Been doing it here for YEARS with my annual rant about playoff blowouts.

Have you noticed that I haven't posted it this year? Two reasons for that. The first is that I don't feel it's needed. There has been lots of good discussion here basically acknowledging what I have been saying all along, which is that the system is flawed. The second is that, frankly, I got bored with it.

That said, however, the FIXES for the system should not be discriminatory. Fix classification in a way that is fair for all. You wanna apply a success factor or football enrollment? Knock yourself out as long as they are equally applicable to both public and private schools. You want to develop a classification formula like @stonedlizard has offered? Go for it because it treats private and public schools equally. 1-32 seeding in one bracket is an easy fix, but only if the IHSA grows some stones so it doesn't pander to geographic representation.

 

[daveje]

Its ironic that teams like LA have these huge players on the entire team.

Why is it ironic? Where is the irony here?

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Why is it ironic? Where is the irony here?

Ask him how ironic it is that arguably the best QB in the state transferred to his school in the middle of last year.

 

[daveje]

Ask him how ironic it is that arguably the best QB in the state transferred to his school in the middle of last year.

I’m sure the coaches were surprised and delighted when the bus dropped him off. That’s the life of a public coach but sometimes the bus pays out big time.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I’m sure the coaches were surprised and delighted when the bus dropped him off. That’s the life of a public coach but sometimes the bus pays out big time.

Delighted? I'm sure. Surprised? I'm not as sure.

 

[colin2229]

I’m sure the coaches were surprised and delighted when the bus dropped him off. That’s the life of a public coach but sometimes the bus pays out big time.

A kid like that doesn't just transfer in without having first met with the coaches. No way they were surprised and didn't see this coming.

I have no problem with this. Parents should be able to send their kids to whatever school they want as long as they abide by the rules the IHSA sets out.

 

[daveje]

Delighted? I'm sure. Surprised? I'm not as sure.

Haven’t you been paying attention? The coaches line up at the curb the first day of school, anxiously waiting to see who gets off the bus. They have no way to know otherwise and they definitely do not see or talk to anyone before the bus.

 

[daveje]

A kid like that doesn't just transfer in without having first met with the coaches. No way they were surprised and didn't see this coming.

I have no problem with this. Parents should be able to send their kids to whatever school they want as long as they abide by the rules the IHSA sets out.

No you are mistaken. The bus dictates all and that’s it.

 

[Snetsrak61]

I love when sarcasm doesn't come across written word.

Gotta throw the big into these comments

 

[Anon1754760634]

Using quarterfinals would be feasible if the way seeding is done would be improved. However, as seeding is currently done, all too frequently teams that are not particularly good stumble into the quarterfinals based on an easy path, like playing Chicago Public League teams in rounds one and two.

The main objective is preventing relatively powerful programs from having the multiplier waived. The use of the semifinal measure (during the previous five years) will prevent that. For example, it would prevent Marist and St. Ignatius from dropping down to 6A next year, and prevent Brother Rice and Fenwick from dropping down to 5A. It is possible under the current system that even IC Catholic might drop down to 2A (if they make the playoffs); that too would be prevented with the use of the semifinal measure.

EdgyTim seems to think 1-32 seeding, while using the current algorithms for the multiplier and success factor, will solve the problem. He points to the fact that Mt. Carmel and Nazareth will be moving up one class. He is in for a rude awakening. When the teams I've mentioned in the second paragraph move down as much as to two class levels, the complaints will be just as loud.

Please show me where I said that a 1-32 for all clases would solve anything....I suggested that the IHSA put it in place for all classes with the hope of getting the best two teams into the state title game.....simple as that. As far as pub;lic/private put it to a member wide vote and be done with it. After 30 plus years of having to deal with the same issue and arguments literally every single day of my life....I'ver had enough. Either put up or shut up and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Alexander33]

Please show me where I said that a 1-32 for all clases would solve anything....I suggested that the IHSA put it in place for all classes with the hope of getting the best two teams into the state title game.....simple as that. As far as pub;lic/private put it to a member wide vote and be done with it. After 30 plus years of having to deal with the same issue and arguments literally every single day of my life....I'ver had enough. Either put up or shut up and let the chips fall where they may.

The request you made in your first sentence is fulfilled by your second sentence. You ask to be shown where you said 1-32 seeding would solve anything. Then, your very next sentence states you hope 1-32 seeding will solve the problem of uncompetitive championship games.

Your frustration with the never-ending debate over the public/private situation is understandable. That frustration results, at least in part, with you writing: "Either put up or shut up...". Several of the posters to this board have responded over the years by offering very comprehensive proposals to address the issues. They have, to use your words, "put up". However, they have done so with the understanding they are among the least influential individuals having an interest in the matter.

You, on the other hand, have some level of connection with quite a few high school coaches in the state of Illinois. Have you ever thought about submitting a comprehensive solution/proposal yourself, "putting up" so to speak? You could develop your own proposal or adopt one of the several excellent proposals that have already been posted to this message board. As a man of some influence, you would be providing an opportunity for Illinois high school football to be improved, as you have already done in so many other ways. Developing your own proposal may be a larger commitment than you would want to make, but forwarding (to one or more coaches) one of the proposals that have already been posted would only take an hour or two out your busy schedule. Doing so could potentially prove hugely beneficial. It is understood that the coach(s) would not likely be authorized on their own to submit a proposal to the IHSA membership, but they could work with their athletic director and principal to do so.

Letting the chips fall where they may is more easily done after one has made a good faith effort to solve a problem.

 

[Anon1754760634]

The request you made in your first sentence is fulfilled by your second sentence. You ask to be shown where you said 1-32 seeding would solve anything. Then, your very next sentence states you hope 1-32 seeding will solve the problem of uncompetitive championship games.

Your frustration with the never-ending debate over the public/private situation is understandable. That frustration results, at least in part, with you writing: "Either put up or shut up...". Several of the posters to this board have responded over the years by offering very comprehensive proposals to address the issues. They have, to use your words, "put up". However, they have done so with the understanding they are among the least influential individuals having an interest in the matter.

You, on the other hand, have some level of connection with quite a few high school coaches in the state of Illinois. Have you ever thought about submitting a comprehensive solution/proposal yourself, "putting up" so to speak? You could develop your own proposal or adopt one of the several excellent proposals that have already been posted to this message board. As a man of some influence, you would be providing an opportunity for Illinois high school football to be improved, as you have already done in so many other ways. Developing your own proposal may be a larger commitment than you would want to make, but forwarding (to one or more coaches) one of the proposals that have already been posted would only take an hour or two out your busy schedule. Doing so could potentially prove hugely beneficial. It is understood that the coach(s) would not likely be authorized on their own to submit a proposal to the IHSA membership, but they could work with their athletic director and principal to do so.

Letting the chips fall where they may is more easily done after one has made a good faith effort to solve a problem.

Ummm you overlooked one very important word....HOPEView attachment 259

 

[AlabamaTimberwolf]

I agree with you Ramblinman I don’t like the complaining but as long as privates can recruit a 30 mile radius plublics will be at a slightly disadvantage. I am not saying a lot needs to be tweaked to make the playoffs better. Increase the multiplier a little maybe instead of 1.65 make it 2.00? I like the idea of any school public or private that’s wins state 2 years in a row gets bumped up a class. If they win the next year they get bumped up again. If they lose they drop a class.

The 30 mile radius would have to go if privates want to continue with mix playoffs.