Dead from a house fire. Two hit wonder from 90s with I Kissed A Girl and Supermodel
OT: RIP Jill Sobule
- Thread starter bac2therac
- Start date
RIP. I have never heard of her or the song (it does sound familiar maybe) but the period goes back to the contoversial times of Madonna and the ruckus she created in that era. Listening to "I kissed a girl", it's is a catchy tune. She was a few years ahead of her time. Katy Perry raked it in for basically the same song a short while later.
I did not recall the controversy, but nothing fazes me. I recently learned that New Brunswick was the epicenter of gay rights a couple of years before the Stonewall Riots, which is often marked as the new movement of LGBTQ rights in 1969.
However, Manny's Den was a gay bar on Albany Street, where J&J's corporate headquarters now stand. In the early 1960's, NJ Liquor Authority stated that known homosexuals could not congregate in bars without losing their liquor licenses. Woah. Manny's and a couple of other bars fought back and the case made it to the NJ Supreme Court in 1967. The gay bars won, but the language of the decision, particularly Justice who wrote the concurring opinion is quite a time warp.
"I wish to emphasize that, although well-behaved homosexuals cannot be forbidden to patronize taverns, they may not engage in any conduct which would be offensive to public decency. In the record before us it appears that there was evidence of conduct (men kissing each other on the lips, etc.) which would form the basis for disciplinary action at least against One Eleven and Murphy's had they properly been charged. A tavern should not provide an arena for the behavior disclosed by this record."
Fortunately, times and attitudes have changed for the most part. Sadly, however, there is a lot of hate and misdirected anger at LGBTQ people, particularly the T and Q people.
That a cretin like Matt Walsh has a large following is just one example.
Last edited:
Great post, wish I could like this 100X. If some have their way, all of the progress we've made as a society for LGBTQ folks will be rolled back. We have a number of gay friends and these days there are many parents with LGBTQ kids and the rhetoric is not only hurtful, but it has made many fear for the future. We also have a few gay/lesbian friends who adopted kids and they've made great parents - to think that someone would rather leave kids like that in terrible conditions rather than have loving parents adopt them is just cruel.
My wife's father, who was a Labor Relations prof at RU from the late 50s to the early 90s and was active politically, used to make a point to go to Manny's back then just to show solidarity (plus he was neighbors and friends with Manny), even bringing his family there a few times, which included my wife and her siblings as young kids. She grew up with Pete (Manny's son) and his sister Randi and we've been going to Sophie's, which they both owned (I think just Pete owns it now), for 25+ years (one of our favorite places) and Pete always pops by to chat and usually comps us a free dessert or an after dinner drink. Prince of a guy.
My wife's dad was also heavily involved in discussions and negotiations (he was a well-known mediator/arbitrator) in NB between the local government/mayor and black activists in that summer of 1967 when countless cities experienced riots and NB's progressive approach to actually listen to the complaints about rampant racism and to work to defuse some tense confrontations rather than escalating them was a key reason why NB largely avoided the violence that so many other cities saw.
https://www.mycentraljersey.com/sto...alling-1967-new-brunswick-protests/428509001/
Last edited:
Saw that Tucker-Walsh interview. Walsh is a strange dude. But the main gist of what he was saying about gay couples adopting was that using that example of unwanted children needing homes is the argument used, but what really happens mostly now is they end up renting a womb to create new life rather than adopt existing children. I have no knowledge of the numbers behind such an accusation.. but that was where the conversation headed. To claim it was about unwanted children not finding good homes with gay couples is misleading. The whole conversation was weird and I have no firm opinion on any of it, just providing context.
What a terrible tragedy for Sobule and a loss to her fans, as she's been actively touring for years and was in discussions to play in Asbury Park with Renee Maskin, again, as they played there back in January. We were away and couldn't make that show and were looking forward to seeing them this summer. Damn. Saw Jill Sobule back in 2000 at Maxwell's in Hoboken, after her fame had worn off a bit from that great 1995 album and she really put on a great show - very engaging.
As an aside, Maskin was formerly the leader of Lowlight and is from Metuchen and has had some nice success (Lowlight opened up on a Pretenders tour a few years ago and she's gone solo now) - we've seen her countless times at Metuchen's Old Franklin Schoolhouse venue, which is fantastic if you like "living room" style small shows with ~100 people - Freedy Johnston is playing there on 5/10.
As an aside, Maskin was formerly the leader of Lowlight and is from Metuchen and has had some nice success (Lowlight opened up on a Pretenders tour a few years ago and she's gone solo now) - we've seen her countless times at Metuchen's Old Franklin Schoolhouse venue, which is fantastic if you like "living room" style small shows with ~100 people - Freedy Johnston is playing there on 5/10.
Lumping trans in with gays was a big mistake and many in the gay community are speaking out about this...its creating a divide issue
The feverish fervor over trans has caused backlash
Last edited:
Actually dont remember it being that controversial. There were alot 80s and 90s stuff that was just accepted without much noise. Androgynous acts like Eurythmics ,Culture Club, Dead or Alive in the 80s.
Sounds like you have inside info- are you gay?
I have quite a few gay and trans people that I am close to, and the only people creating a divide are knuckleheads like Matt Walsh. Very stupid and ham-handed to wipe out all reference to trans people off all government websites. Strangest thing, is trans was wiped of the .gov website for the Stonewall National Monument. It so happens that several trans people led the charge for the Stonewall rebellion. Stupid is as stupid does.
So here are some questions.
1. Didn't one side get upset when people were tearing down historical monuments and changing history?
2. Why not take "B" out of LGB too?
3. Who has the moral authority to make these decisions- should serial cheaters divorced multiple times and who sow children from multiple women, some while unmarried be making these calls? Seems like strange people make more judgments on who should be included under the LGBTQ rights umbrella, no?
"Before the 1960s, almost everything about living openly as a lesbian, gay, bisexual (LGB). . ."
But there were trans people at Stonewalll . . . .
URL unfurl="true"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots[/
The point is pretty much gays reached point of widely accepted through the last 20 years...the recent lumping of gender identity caused a backlash against the entire community. Some believe trans took it over sexual identity and gender confusion are 2 different things..agree or disagree
Alot of fear mongering about people fearing for their lives is odd.no one is coming for anything or their rights. Matt Wallace is generally a douche who is an example of the pushback. But if you are posting him them you should also post some of the nuttier crew that show up on msnbc to fear monger
The story of Stonewall has been revised over the years to fit intersectionality especially concerning Marsha Johnson People didn't call themselves transgender then...Likely a mixture of transsexuals and transvestite and drag queens and the latter have nothing to do with transge
Last edited:
It truly is a gem, if you like French bistro food and we're huge fans - we go at least 3-4x a year and I think we've tried almost everything on the menu. Favorites are the steak frites, beef bourguignon, coq a vin, the salmon, the roasted chicken (my wife's fave) and the bouillabaise, when they have it and their apps are also fantastic: love the fondue-ish plate with cheese and potatoes and their amazing French bread, as well as the mussels and the cheese plate and pate. I might just have to go tonight, lol.
I didn't read the case until law school, and was proud it traced back to RU. I think Paradise in Asbury (may not have been called Paradise then) was also one of the plaintiffs.
Here's a great website with the oral history of Manny's Den, which Manny Mack started as a regular bar/package goods place in 1944 on Albany St. and it was mostly a regular bar until the mid-1950s when it opened up a restaurant too. Around then is when the Rutgers Cocktail Bar nearby was shut down for being a gay bar, as the NJ ABC regularly targeted gay bars for closure. After that many in the mostly closeted gay community started going to Manny's, as they had a piano and lots of theater people (many of whom were gay, surprise) and it was a bar/restaurant until late evening and a gay bar after ~10 pm.
By the late 1950s, Manny's son Richard (father to Pete and Randi, who founded Sophie's), became involved in running the bar (he had served in the military and attended SHU law school for a bit (which would come in handy a few years later), but he didn't finish and went back to work at his father's place. The history of the ABC shutting Manny's down in 1965, after sending in "undercover" agents to "observe and report" on homosexuals in the bar (which they magically knew by sight) and then the legal maneuvering from then until 1967, when the NJ Supreme Court ruled that gay bars were allowed to operate, is fascinating and is in the link below.
One cool tidbit was that there was the main bar/restaurant and then an attached "back room" where gays and lesbians danced away from prying eyes and the room had a red light in it that the bartenders or owners could activate from the main room if they saw cops or probable ABC folks come in, so the folks in the back room could then stop dancing and just drink and converse (men dancing together was illegal then).
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://oralhistory.rutgers.edu/images/PDFs/The%20Story%20of%20Richard%20Mack%20and%20Mannys%20Den.pdf
By the late 1950s, Manny's son Richard (father to Pete and Randi, who founded Sophie's), became involved in running the bar (he had served in the military and attended SHU law school for a bit (which would come in handy a few years later), but he didn't finish and went back to work at his father's place. The history of the ABC shutting Manny's down in 1965, after sending in "undercover" agents to "observe and report" on homosexuals in the bar (which they magically knew by sight) and then the legal maneuvering from then until 1967, when the NJ Supreme Court ruled that gay bars were allowed to operate, is fascinating and is in the link below.
One cool tidbit was that there was the main bar/restaurant and then an attached "back room" where gays and lesbians danced away from prying eyes and the room had a red light in it that the bartenders or owners could activate from the main room if they saw cops or probable ABC folks come in, so the folks in the back room could then stop dancing and just drink and converse (men dancing together was illegal then).
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://oralhistory.rutgers.edu/images/PDFs/The%20Story%20of%20Richard%20Mack%20and%20Mannys%20Den.pdf
Peter’s sister is Randi. I went to high school with them. Both are super nice people.
Yes, thanks, I asked my wife and put that in my 2nd post and just updated the first one. I only know them through Sophie's and they've always been great to us, but my wife graduated with Randi from Highland Park HS and they're pretty good friends.
There are more than a few "knuckleheads" on this board (well another one, really, but I'm not allowed to even say it apparently), social media in general and out there in the world. The only issue I see with the T angle is age: I think there are legitimate reasons why gender hormone treatments and surgery should not be allowed until a certain age and that's generally followed, in practice with most states not allowing the surgeries until 18 and most discouraging hormone therapy until 14-16.
The sports issue is a tempest in a teacup, IMO: there are <10 transwomen competing in NCAA sports and very few are successful. It's a far tinier problem than many would have people believe. And the science is unclear, as biological males playing in women's sports are required to be under hormone therapy to level the playing field mostly (except for size, which hormones obviously don't affect).
Thought this thread was about a singer who passed away?
And not in a nice way to go either.
And not in a nice way to go either.
Yes, there are some thorny issues with T, but they can be handled without proverbially throwing out the baby with the bath water. As far as age, generally agree, except a very close trans friend who is in her 50s and I have known for more than 35 years thinks (and not just her) that surgery should wait until 25 years old.
Also, and walking a fine line here to keep the thread civil, while there are many purportedly well-meaning people who want to help the T community, some of the approaches in the last 4 years went too far and too fast, and that ignited a backlash. But two wrongs don't make a right. The basic problem with a lot of rollbacks and backlash is that it is not being done thoughtfully (just hamhandedly and harshly) so that they can show that they are doing something. But this is what we wound up with when the choices were both not good ones.
Each side likes to grab their hot button issue to get the most outrage and most clicks, and as usual, they fail to look at the bigger picture and the opportunity for a more middle ground approach that more people would buy into with less objection.
The sad thing is the T people I am extremely close with live exemplary lives. No criminal records, degrees from great universities, highly accomplished and respected in their fields. In loving and caring relationships. Will revert back to the question why should serial cheaters and men who have sown multiple children out of wedlock with different women be moral arbiters of how people live their lives? Why can't society tackle the thornier issues with a scalpel instead coming out full force against an entire community of people with a chain saw and a flame thrower? We know why, and it is sad.
It is. Her iconic song was about a girl kissing a girl. It spawned a discussion that is relevant to the topic of the song that was more controversial when the song was released.
Thanks for the civil reply. That reason story is totally whacked:
"What's more, there's no evidence Johnson used the term transgender for herself. Though it's true that the term was not nearly as widespread as it is today, it wasn't unheard of."
That's a pretty thin reed. Billy Binion, by quick search seems to fancy takedowns on LGBTQ issues, but whatever. Is it any wonder why she may have been uncomfortable in declaring her identity? She was constantly harassed and threatened. She died in 1992, and NYPD hastily concluded her death was a suicide, when anti-gay violence was at a peak in New York City.
Regardless, what does it matter, and nobody is going to be able to prove at this point if she was transgender. Why should it matter when the person who could resolve the question is dead.
Harassment against transgender people has increased, and that is said. 95-99% of transgender quietly live their lives not harming anyone. Many are married and/or in loving/committed relationships and being productive contributors to society in their fields of work. Will never understand why someone's identity causes people to lose their minds and go on hate-filled screeds against transgender people. Maybe its it's Transgender Derangement Syndrome?
Not really
The song is about a girl kissing a girl..not sure why the topic deviated into other issues
Again I dont think the song was a big deal back then but now with social media we have everyone playing a victim..both sides
It's a song, calm down. In Jill Sobule's own words, but songs are open to different interpretations.
"That same year, Sobule released her self-titled album, which featured the hit “I Kissed A Girl.” Sobule said that at the time of the album’s release, her record label was “bold” at first, but then started “chickening out” about the song’s unapologetically ***** lyrics.
“In the video that we did, I was supposed to have a kiss, an actual kiss with another girl and it would have been the first on MTV and at the last minute they said ‘We can’t do it. Instead we’re going to make you pregnant with Fabio’s baby,’” said Sobule. "
Very well said...it's a very complex issue when it gets to sports at a really high level (I liken it to Oscar Pistorius or Casey Martin), but hate that it means that a middling middle/high school trans athlete is shunned at a time where they could really use all of the benefits that team sports provide.
Hadn't been in awhile, but I really enjoyed it there when I went. Glad to hear it's still good and I need to get back there soon.
Gonna put you on my last wishes log for 2024 (God willing) . Need contact info for my admin as I hope I can get one of these threads then.
When u was at Rutgers-1966-70 as an undergraduate many people wore blue jeans the gay community announced there would be a “blue jeans day” when all gay guys (for those too young to remember Rutgers College was male only) should wear jeans. One frat (DKE?) got in trouble for hanging a blue Jean clad dummy from a tree in front of their house.
Meh totally forgot about this song and don't remember much controversy at the time either. The song itself stinks and MTV video didn't help with the blonde butterface.