Older players are better than when they were younger. We aren't becoming good overnight, and in this world we can't afford to bring in 9 actually talented players. We can, maybe, afford two above average or good players. Need to have something around the two, it's better to have 8 guys from the system than 8 rando's.
Dont care if anyone comes back...
- Thread starter ImBadRU
- Start date
8 system guys who finished below 500 with 2 lottery picks? 8 system guys who can not guard a high school team?
I can almost guarantee you this would have been a better season if you had Chol or GG over Hayes, Wolf playing minutes over insert any 4 or 5 here, Mag over Derkack. Two possible hits, Acuff had he been healthy all year, and I'll call Martini a hit because he's given all anyone should have expected.
When it's safe to assume the 8 you bring in aren't going to be better? Three of them are freshman, who typically are their worst defensively as freshman.
If I had any belief RU could bring in a high number of actual players from the portal, I'd agree. However, we aren't moving on from the coach, who is a system/development guy, so let him go back to what he's at least decent at.
double facts right here lol...for sure we should want everyone back and for sure most want to hear it
I don’t disagree. But “wanting” them to return is not the same thing as ear marking that as a top priority. It’s very different. I definitely don’t “want” to hear that keeping these players (any of them) should be our top priority (or as someone else put it, priorities 1, 2 and 3). In my opinion, for the team to improve decisions need to be made first and foremost to upgrade the defense. Yes, even if that means some of our current players aren’t happy and decide to move on.
Look - let’s assume Ace and Dylan aren’t returning. There are 7 other scholarship players on the roster eligible to return and 4 incoming frosh. We’re technically allowed to carry up to 15 scholarship players on the roster. If everyone returns we can still bring in 4 kids from the portal, so sure, we 100% “want” everyone whose interested in coming back to return. There is zero chance we’re bringing in 5+ players from the portal who will all be significant upgrades to our current kids after another offseason of development. Get even 3 kids that turn out to be major upgrades to the defense and that’s a successful offseason for us in the portal.
We’re not getting 6+ kids from the transfer portal who will help the team more than the 7 kids eligible to return. If we can add 3-4 big time contributors that would be amazing.
From this perspective, sure, we technically should “want” as many of the 7 kids who want to remain with the program after learning who we’re adding from the portal to stay.
Thats different from saying - we need to approach the offseason by making sure we keep these kids at all costs. Even if it means we don’t bring in a 5, etc. This, we simply cannot do unless we were looking to free fall down to the BIG basement cellar.
I totally agree. However, see my other post. We can’t prioritize this at the expense of not addressing the major issues on the current roster. Internal development of players already in the program while blending in 4 new frosh is highly unlikely to resolve the issues on defense. If we don’t fix that we won’t / can’t win. Period.
Yes, except bad, mid-major level talent isnt going to get better enough to matter. Retaining bad players isnt a solution just because we need continuity. Unfortunately this roster is largely barren on talent to work with going forward and we are looking at another full re-build.
that's all great, but if your plan is to run it back with 7 carryovers just because you want continuity and Pike has shown he cant handle the portal, next year is going to be yet another long year. Will be 3 seasons in a row where Pike where Pike lost both the team and the fans.
I don’t entirely agree. J Will and J Mike logged 26.7 and 23 mpg on a team that ranked 5th nationally in defense last year. They are certainly capable of being a part of a traditional Pike defense. Ogbole is fine to be a back up center. Dortch, Lathan, Grant certainly showed enough promise as frosh to warrant an offseason of development. If they were incoming from on any prior roster nobody would have anything negative to say about them at this point.
There’s nothing wrong with retaining these players if we pick up 4 transfers that address the major issues on D. Yes - we’re also replacing Dylan and Ace on offense, but look - we’ve only had a top 75 defense once (Covid year) in all of Pike’s years at RU. We’re 50th ranked right now. Hopefully we’ll hit with some of the frosh and be able to bring in 1-2 players who will provide offense (not what Dylan and Ace bring but still reliable) and are also an upgrade on D. The rest of the transfers we should target in my opinion should be D focused with an eye for the kids of kids who finish well in transition. Pike needs to go back to his roots - D first style.
Yikes. That would be a really bad roster more than likely. JWill is simply awful. He does more harm than good on the floor. Jmike is very limited. Can't shoot and gets rejected every time he drives the hoop. Roster depth at best. Ogbole is 35 years old and limited depth piece at best. How much better is he getting? Lathan is gone. Dortch has zero offensive game and likely ends up transferring down a level. Grant is fine to keep, but nothing special. This is a roster in need of a major overhaul
From the Evan Miya site,
PJ Hayes was 6th in defensive efficiency on U of San Diego roster ly.
Tyson Acuff was 8th on Eastern Michigan roster last year.
Zach Martini 2nd and Derkack 1st on Princeton and Merrimack.
All mid to low major teams.
JMike was 3rd defensively and JWill 9th last year's.
Add 5 freshman who has learnt very limited defense at the HS/AAU level.
In order this year off Evan Miya
Ace
JMike
JWill
Sommerville
Dylan H
Derkack
Ogbole
(Dortch) In limited minutes
Martini
D. Grant
Hayes
Acuff
Looking back, we should have grabbed the best defensive minded players out there and let Ace and Dylan take 50% of the shots than what we got.
PJ Hayes was 6th in defensive efficiency on U of San Diego roster ly.
Tyson Acuff was 8th on Eastern Michigan roster last year.
Zach Martini 2nd and Derkack 1st on Princeton and Merrimack.
All mid to low major teams.
JMike was 3rd defensively and JWill 9th last year's.
Add 5 freshman who has learnt very limited defense at the HS/AAU level.
In order this year off Evan Miya
Ace
JMike
JWill
Sommerville
Dylan H
Derkack
Ogbole
(Dortch) In limited minutes
Martini
D. Grant
Hayes
Acuff
Looking back, we should have grabbed the best defensive minded players out there and let Ace and Dylan take 50% of the shots than what we got.
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Interesting, I actually think Ace plays better defense and puts more effort in the game than Dylan does.
Oh, no doubt. Whatever transfers we can bring in need to be plus D guys with length. I just see the likely hood of finding more than two of those guys that can also dribble a ball successfully to be slim. No matter what anyone wants, this roster won't be fixed in an off season.
We are, yes, this roster will not be rebuilt in this one off season. At least not successfully. You bring in 9 guys from the portal, and we are doing this again next year.
The scholarship limit bumps to 15 this year. If they all return, we can still take 4 kids from the portal and presumably nobody from the portal will be turned away out of fear of minimal PT. We won’t return a single double digit scorer. But the thing is - once we bri g in 4 transfers, the ability to attract more high level ones goes down a lot. Think of the tail end of rosters past. We got Agee, PJ, etc. we’re better off retaining what we have for depth for sure if we can.
We’re recruiting several different positions. Hopefully we can get 2 players that slot in as starters and 1-2 others that provide solid rotation minutes. I would consider that a recruiting portal success.
But as I said - the recruitment of those 1st two has to be all in. Go out and get the best front court big we can and get a guard / wing who plays D and can put up points. We must add those two things and if any of the 7 potential returnees doesn’t like that we’re recruiting their position, that is simply a risk we have to take.
In other words, the strategy cannot be - bring in the best guys that Lathan and J Will are ok with us adding (or any other possible returners). If they don’t want to compete, we need to show them the door. It’s that simple.
My real concern with "bring everyone back" is it limiting our potential transfer options.
Sure bring everyone back.
But just not as expected major contributors.
JWill, Davis and Derkack can't be expected as starters.
Will they start if we don't bring in anyone better? It'll suck but it is what it is.
But that can't be the plan going into the offseason.
HC Pike needs to make it known to transfers that he's looking for starters and major contributors.
None of this "can't discuss role or minutes and we'll just see where things go".
Sure bring everyone back.
But just not as expected major contributors.
JWill, Davis and Derkack can't be expected as starters.
Will they start if we don't bring in anyone better? It'll suck but it is what it is.
But that can't be the plan going into the offseason.
HC Pike needs to make it known to transfers that he's looking for starters and major contributors.
None of this "can't discuss role or minutes and we'll just see where things go".
He does not need to say anything to J Will, J Mike and Jordan other than - would love to have you back. We’re going to be changing things up with a defense first focus. Our recruiting will emphasize this and playing time will likely be driven by defensive production - that’s where my teams have found success in the past and that’s the direction we’re aiming to go. The guy who is most likely to not appreciate this is probab Lathan as his game is clearly about offense right now.
Hes not meeting with the potential transfers in front of the current players. To the incoming guys - he will market his D first culture which overall has an excellent track record. Caleb is is jewel product. He’ll point to that and say that’s what I’m looking for. If you can deliver that you’ll start for me. That’s the foundation we need to rebuild. At all positions.
I don't care if anyone returns because they won't play defense again. Why would they? They got a pass from the coach this year, and Pike won't be able to change their mindset next year. Imagine a no-defense team next year with a much worse offense.
Somerville, Grant and Dortch could be a solid core.. but we really need the lengthy guards who can play D as well as shoot the three. I like Davis' effort on D.. but both he and Williams cannot handle the switches that Pike's D needs to work. And while Somerville has improved on that hedge of the ballhandler using a screen and then getting back down low.. he doesn't do it every time.
Somerville is horrible at D. If we don’t bring in a better defensive center who rebounds the defense isn’t going to improve much. This is really important.
As long as Harper and Bailey move on, I’m good with whoever goes or stays. Nothing personal against those guys but one and done is not (or should not) be what college basketball is about.
No. That assumes they are Big10 caliber. This collection of crap should be flushed. All of it. Toilet flush.
Sommerville can’t defend even the shadows of his assignments and is a black hole on O. Dortch and his hands seem neurologically disconnected. Davis plays like he thinks he’s Iverson.
And worst of all, Derkack. Imagine him in a grocery store and asked to dribble up and down all the aisles. When he finishes all the boxes, cans and bottles would be strewn all over the store, other shoppers would be bleeding and the storefront glass would be shattered. He’s a This Is Spinal Tap complete catastrophe.
If he could choose, Shelby would rather the team lose on Sunday and miss the tourney than have to see all the above players in a Rutgers uniform next year.
As a group, the only place they belong is in Basketball Catalogue of Crappy players.
Some of them will have to come back and be role players. We both know we’re not getting more than 4-5 or so kids in the portal who we’d want. I’d rather see if any of the frosh develop into role players than back fill our roster with a couple Agees.
We didnt get what we expected out of Martini because we had him playing backup Center after Ogbole went down. And even some before that. If he was a catch and shoot in the corner like he was at Princeton we would have been better off. Again this all comes down to not getting a real “Big Ten” center in the offseason. And then expecting to compete in the top half of the Big Ten conference
Is Shelby such a dick that his posts have to insult players and coaches? Please don't tell us that this post is as you would say truthful!
none above should be starters. JWill and Grant possibly should but it may be a 40 ppg team if Derknado, Davis, Lathan, Ogbole, Grant, JWill and Dortch are in the rotation.
If Somerville demands a big NIL check, let him walk. If there’s one takeaway from this season, is that in this era, you still need to recruit your philosophy first. I’ts possible they get him to lose weight and he becomes a better defender, but with his height and lack of athleticism, it seems a long way off for him to be an effective Pikiell defender.
No reason Grant/Dortch can’t become good players if they stay the course and develop. They are good fits and not entirely different than Mag his first season.
I think JMike is a good fit here under real Pike basketball and it did seem like he was developing, but he needs to be allowed to run the show and defend PGs.
Everyone else - don’t care what happens. I liked Derkack early on but it’s a bad sign the staff lost trust in him despite always playing hard. His defense was really bad - maybe it’s just another year of learning the system? But the bad defense and forced offense is a tough combination. Maybe it works better in a classic Pike meat grinder team like well hopefully get next season
agree on all counts.
Somerville - totally agree re: NIL. while he would be the best returner, what is it gonna cost us? if its not gonna cost TOO much bringing him back is a total non-brainer. after all most (all?) on here are talking about CONTINUITY as one of the main problems with the program. what he is gonna demand in NIL (and thus whats left to bring in other solid contributors) is one of the big questions for next year
dercack - also fully agree. I was a Dercack-defender early on. while others were harping on his forced-drives and mediocre shooting, I largely overlooked that since I appreciated the effort as SOMEONE besides Ace and Dylan needed to contribute on offense. at least he was trying! also liked his ability to draw fouls and while not a great defender he was at least disruptive at times. he also has a toughness that is sorely lacking on this team. with that said the fact that he is now buried in the rotation is concerning
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If Lathan and Grant come back that’s fine, I don’t think there is anyone worth losing sleep over if they enter the portal and leave. Lathan would be the biggest loss as it looks like he could improve and become an even better offensive player in a few years, but in this day and age you can’t expect to have guys 3-4 years. Everyone is replaceable, that’s why the portal exists.
Is that the order according to Evan Miya defensive efficiency? If so another reason why analytics with out proper application are useless.
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