OT: The New Ivies

[RUDiddy777]

I do think that at day 1- being a college graduate is a huge help in a new job. Not as much for the knowledge but the discipline...But- all things equal and two people with equal mindsets and one is and one isn't a college grad, withing a year- they are pretty much on equal ground.
excluding careers that really do require a very specific "taught" knowledge base

To be honest, when I’m hiring undergrads…what they studied is one of the few indicators I have of their discipline.

 

[yesrutgers01]

To be honest, when I’m hiring undergrads…what they studied is one of the few indicators I have of their discipline.

To be honest- when I am hiring for my direct staff- I do not think I ever look at their degree or where they went to school- I am selling IT Services and solutions- I am hiring Sales people that may or may not have ever gone to college and don't care. And they are all 6 figure base and expectations of at least double that and most of the time- mid 6 figure range- All I look at is...Their relevant experience and one other thing- I have been in IT Solutions and Services, not only national/global but mostly here in the greater NYC area for decades. If they say they have been selling the same services, into this market- and I look at linkedin and we have less than 5 mutual contacts- it is a red flag...
But I do not think I have been asked about college in 25 years if I was looking and I don't care, unless it is a fun talking point, if someone I am hiring has a degree.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

I agree it's not a jobs training program; where my qualms lie is that guidance counselors, along with parents, are there to help guide teenagers into career altering decisions

Fortunately, I had two good parents who helped me along the way; other kids however, some of whom were my friends, didn't have that luxury

I could see it a mile away that these kids weren't meant for college, let alone a 4 year situation
Yet the guidance conselors didn't do anything to disuagde them from going away and racking up debt; rather, they gave them a list of options according to what the kid was looking for

Knowing the kid and seeing their grades, I couldn't believe, at 18, that they were being steered in this direction
County college, which at the time was less than $70 per credit, while holding down a part time job would have been the move if they were so inclined to attend school

Yet advising these kids to go away to 4 year, knowing their chances for failure were massive, was a huge disservice IMO

I think the guidance counselors mostly follow the directions of kids/parents. Mine didn't really direct me in anyway. They told everyone in our class that seemed college bound to apply to UDel and UMD and I did neither, lol.

99% people I know with college debt have a JD/MBA/MD and the other 1% a good MA. The kids that I knew that were screwups maybe finished community college which didn't change anything. Basically the only people I know from RU not making 6 figures work in public service.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

People who make 70k aren’t paying 30 for Rutgers either. At least not according to RU’s own website. But keep trying
And yea, if rich people want to spend 70 grand to send their kid to Tampa it’s their money.
Finally, for the umpteenth time, I told my niece to go to community college when she realized she hated the place she originally went on a sports scholarship. She went for 3 semesters before transferring to a state school. And my own daughter, who graduated HS in 3 years, will be taking classes at a community college while she waits to enroll early at the P4 school she got a scholarship to. And you will ignore these facts as always and then claim “people” want poor kid to go to CC but not their own.

Right...they definitely have to pay yet an affordable amount lol.

No one is saying rich people can't waste their money. They are just mocking the hypocrisy. You want 2 systems for people based on income. Taking a summer class or transferring home isn't the same thing as telling a HS grad with college qualifications to go to community college and miss the connections the wealthy kids get to make as freshmen.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

Honestly, college was both for me. There were all sorts of fulfilling courses in philosophy and political science - and figuring out what I actually wanted to do - but had to also have a degree that would translate to a career.

It’s actually the same advice I give to undergrads. “Cool, you think psychology is fun. Great. But make sure you’re filling out the rest of your curriculum with math and science”.

That's the point of a liberal arts education. It is to develop people across the board.

It isn't to call the CEOs of the local widget factory and build the class of people he or she is looking for. Because, as we've seen, the widget factory closes and then problems result.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

I think the exact opposite. Of course the primary value of a degree is education, but the problem people aren't appreciating is that all education isn't created equal. You want to be an art history or gender studies major? Have at it, but then don't complain about the costs or ROI.

I think that's a Fox News calque, not a reality. First of all, if there is even a "gender studies" major at a school like Harvard, the person is going to get a good job because their degree is from Harvard. Secondly, I know a lot of people from RU and even less strong schools with degrees the "STEM or bust" crowd would sneer at would good careers.

I think the problem is more that even a kid that goes into banking and makes 6 figures will struggle to pay bills in some parts of the country, this area included. That though is kind of aside from the fact that college degrees are proven to lead to more earnings over time and a longer, healthier life.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

I do think that at day 1- being a college graduate is a huge help in a new job. Not as much for the knowledge but the discipline...But- all things equal and two people with equal mindsets and one is and one isn't a college grad, withing a year- they are pretty much on equal ground.
excluding careers that really do require a very specific "taught" knowledge base

One thing IMO college I think at least ostensibly teaches people is writing. As part of my job I have to "fix" a lot of things other people write. The number of people who at least assert having a college degree that don't understand the basics of English grammar- where apostrophes go, capitalization, you're versus your...is stunning. And those without degrees....tends to be even worse...and for them, you have throw spelling in.

People can crap on gender studies or psychology but I would bet someone from RU or a similarly ranked school is going to make fewer or less mistakes because they were drilled in writing. Having a two major BA plus a JD at this point when I get asked to proofread people know the daggers are coming lol.

And even the plumber is going to want to sound smart when he texts his customers or girls on an app lol. If a sales person reaches out and I can tell English is their first language and they make those mistakes their email is going straight to trash.

 

[RUDiddy777]

That's the point of a liberal arts education. It is to develop people across the board.

It isn't to call the CEOs of the local widget factory and build the class of people he or she is looking for. Because, as we've seen, the widget factory closes and then problems result.

It sort of is. If you’re going to college and not using that 4 years to invest in skills for your career, that’s idiotic. If you acquire skills, when that factory closes, you have skills that you can use elsewhere. If you don’t, and end up a barista with 150k in debt for that French Lit degree, that’s your problem. (Incidentally, best data architect I’ve worked with had a bachelors in French Lit. He also filled out the balance of his curriculum with tech skills).

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

It sort of is. If you’re going to college and not using that 4 years to invest in skills for your career, that’s idiotic. If you acquire skills, when that factory closes, you have skills that you can use elsewhere. If you don’t, and end up a barista with 150k in debt for that French Lit degree, that’s your problem. (Incidentally, best data architect I’ve worked with had a bachelors in French Lit. He also filled out the balance of his curriculum with tech skills).

IMO, the biggest skill is thinking. It's going to teach you how to think- maybe how to think like an engineer or architect, but at least think generally,

I think too many kids shy away from college because they're unclear about their career choices at 18. Meanwhile people picking up new careers in their 40s and 50s and are applauded for bravery. Getting the French lit degree is going to open opportunities, even if they're less evident than others. One of my majors at RU was in a foreign language (concentration in lit too) and that has paid all kinds of crazy dividends both career and non career wise. It was one of the smartest choices I've ever made and people thought I was crazy at the time. Now they ask me to travel with them lol.

 

[RUDiddy777]

IMO, the biggest skill is thinking. It's going to teach you how to think- maybe how to think like an engineer or architect, but at least think generally,

I think too many kids shy away from college because they're unclear about their career choices at 18. Meanwhile people picking up new careers in their 40s and 50s and are applauded for bravery. Getting the French lit degree is going to open opportunities, even if they're less evident than others. One of my majors at RU was in a foreign language (concentration in lit too) and that has paid all kinds of crazy dividends both career and non career wise. It was one of the smartest choices I've ever made and people thought I was crazy at the time. Now they ask me to travel with them lol.

I think you’re coming at it from your personal perspective (much I agree with) and your intent to go to grad school, as opposed to my perspective in hiring undergrads in tech. At the end of the day, if I’ve got a choice between a candidate with a French lit degree or a STEM degree, I’m always taking the STEM degree.

 

[mdk02]

I think you’re coming at it from your personal perspective (much I agree with) and your intent to go to grad school, as opposed to my perspective in hiring undergrads in tech. At the end of the day, if I’ve got a choice between a candidate with a French lit degree or a STEM degree, I’m always taking the STEM degree.

I'm mostly in agreement with you. That being said, fluency or even a basic knowledge in a foreign language is a benefit both personally and professionally. But you don't need to major in it.

 

[RU Cheese]

I think that's a Fox News calque, not a reality. First of all, if there is even a "gender studies" major at a school like Harvard, the person is going to get a good job because their degree is from Harvard. Secondly, I know a lot of people from RU and even less strong schools with degrees the "STEM or bust" crowd would sneer at would good careers.

I think the problem is more that even a kid that goes into banking and makes 6 figures will struggle to pay bills in some parts of the country, this area included. That though is kind of aside from the fact that college degrees are proven to lead to more earnings over time and a longer, healthier life.

I don't understand how any of this relates to my post

 

[vkj91]

Right...they definitely have to pay yet an affordable amount lol.

No one is saying rich people can't waste their money. They are just mocking the hypocrisy. You want 2 systems for people based on income. Taking a summer class or transferring home isn't the same thing as telling a HS grad with college qualifications to go to community college and miss the connections the wealthy kids get to make as freshmen.

You truly Live in la la land. “Miss the connections they get to make as freshman” stop. So my niece didn’t miss out on connections going to community as a transfer. Credits are credits. Whatever my daughter takes at CC means less credits at her actual school. Won’t she miss connections in your world?
And yes, what they would Pay is an affordable amount. “Poor” kids have many Avenues to inexpensive quality educations, if they choose not to use those routes, it’s on them. So at what income level should people actually have to contribute to their education in your eyes.

 

[RUDiddy777]

Right...they definitely have to pay yet an affordable amount lol.

No one is saying rich people can't waste their money. They are just mocking the hypocrisy. You want 2 systems for people based on income. Taking a summer class or transferring home isn't the same thing as telling a HS grad with college qualifications to go to community college and miss the connections the wealthy kids get to make as freshmen.

Fair point. Rutgers is here for college ready students who can’t afford to go to a private.

I didn’t have much of a choice at the time, but money won’t be a limiting factor for my kids. But I still don’t see a point in wasting money to get an education they could get in state. Overpaying for college is a dumb way to build wealth.

 

[mdk02]

You truly Live in la la land. “Miss the connections they get to make as freshman” stop. So my niece didn’t miss out on connections going to community as a transfer. Credits are credits. Whatever my daughter takes at CC means less credits at her actual school. Won’t she miss nconnections in your world?
And yes, what they would Pay is an affordable amount. “Poor” kids have many Avenues to inexpensive quality educations, if they choose not to use those routes, it’s on them. So at what income level should people actually have to contribute to their education in your eyes.

Truly poor kids, with respect to financing, have almost as many avenues to a quality college education as rich kids. The problem is the educational opportunities prior to college. The ABC Program and others can only help so many. It's the kids in the middle that face the financing crunch.

 

[RUDiddy777]

Truly poor kids, with respect to financing, have almost as many avenues to a quality college education as rich kids. The problem is the educational opportunities prior to college. The ABC Program and others can only help so many. It's the kids in the middle that face the financing crunch.

The challenge for poor kids is often the family baggage they have to deal with.

 

[Jtung230]

The challenge for poor kids is often the family baggage they have to deal with.

And the schools they have to attend

 

[RUDiddy777]

And the schools they have to attend

100%. I grew up lower income white in an upper middle town. I never take it for granted that I had far more tools at my disposal than an equal less well off kid in the inner city. Plus, having friends with stable families also helped a lot in terms of seeing the life I wanted to give my kids.

 

[bac2therac]

Holloway before Congress today

 

[RUschool]

https://apple.news/AbZYD1X2IQWGxCbKcxYanKQ

College was once widely viewed as a pathway to success, but today only about 1 in 4 Americans say a bachelor's degree is necessary to secure a well-paying job, according to a new survey from the Pew Research Center.

Fifteen years ago, about 3 in 4 people told Pew that a college degree was extremely or very important to get ahead in life. The shift comes as higher education costs continue to soar, with some universities now charging close to $100,000 per year for tuition and other costs.

At the same time, employment opportunities and earnings for young men without college degrees have improved in the last decade, reversing some of the economic damage that eroded the group's fortunes starting in the 1970s.

"Things are looking up for less-educated young men," Richard Fry, senior economist at Pew, told CBS MoneyWatch. Americans' changing views about college could be based on "not just improving labor markets and outcomes for less educated young men, but it's also clear that there is concern about borrowing for college."

Young men with only a high school degree have seen a slight rebound in their earnings since 2014, Pew found. The median annual income for men 25- to 34-years-old without a college degree was $45,000 in 2023, a 15% increase from $39,300 in 2014 when adjusted for inflation, according to Pew's analysis of Census data.

But the data from Pew's analysis clearly shows that the typical college graduate today not only earns far more than their counterparts with only a high school education, but also is able to amass much greater wealth as well. In other words, a college degree opens the door to a lifetime of higher earnings, which, in turn, helps unlock ways to build wealth such as jobs with 401(k) plans and stock equity plans.

That's not to say that young workers without a college degree can't also earn higher incomes or build wealth. For instance, people who go into trades like plumbing or welding typically earn higher incomes. The median annual pay for plumbers is $61,550 — significantly higher than the typical $45,000 in annual income for high school grads, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

But that's still far below the $77,000 median annual income for young male college grads and below the $65,000 median income for young women with college degrees.

All plumbers and electricians are not business owners. There are only 14,000 licensed electricians and 10,000 licensed plumbers in NJ. A significant increase in these professions would affect their income dramatically. Rutgers posters still realize a college educated our earn a high school degree grad since all on the board push their kids to a college degree. I have not seen one poster say they have a kid not going to college or going to be a plumber, only mention their kids going to elite schools, in most cases, better than Rutgers in their mind, just my observation.

 

[Jtung230]

Funny that only 25% think it’s a necessity but applicants are at an all time high.

 

[RUschool]

Funny that only 25% think it’s a necessity but applicants are at an all time high.

There has been numerous stories of colleges going bankrupt, Bloomfield college was taken over by Montclair State to survive. I would assume the % of HS graduates going to college will go down by at least 20% but the prestigious colleges will still be in demand. In addition, 20% on this board might believe you don’t need a college degree but they still want their kids to go to college.

 

[ashokan]

And the schools they have to attend

Urban schools are a constant disaster for decades and that's a feature not a bug. Uneducated voters who need crazy checks are a plus.

My 1k student high school was between 22 - 28% black. Playing three sports a year, half my friends were black. They ALL had two parents in the home and none of them were arrested. Their families weren't in jail. None of us was rich or poor, and we were mostly unconscious about race since most of my rich county despised all of us black or white. Jim Brown spoke highly of his NY high school days and mine was the same kind of place.

Then DC started paying single mothers for babies and the whole family fell apart. Now you have "baby mommas and baby daddies" with angry, young sons who have to share a home with seedy boyfriends shacked-up with moms getting checks.

The schools and social agencies cry "we need more money" and it goes under the table and/or pays for salaries of slug admins and pols. There is lots of money in poorer areas - it just gets abused like foreign aid to third world countries. A brilliant black or white job/political candidate gets slimed and cut-down at the knees. Only sketchy operators open to the grift and agendas are allowed.

Is it lack of money that enables kids to be prolific shoplifters and criminals? No - the chaos and broken youths caught-up in chaos and crime serve a purpose. Southern kids couldn't read/write at one time and the same grifters prefer that now. It all began amping-up in the 1960s despite the selfish agitators blaming slavery and "supremacy". Now the agitators are using the kids to sow more anarchy while wine moms get guilt tripped as the cause. Even the med schools are falling apart now.

https://freebeacon.com/campus/a-fai...utlawed-in-california-have-persisted-at-ucla/

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/proje...ssessment-program-maryland-governor-wes-moore

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

I think you’re coming at it from your personal perspective (much I agree with) and your intent to go to grad school, as opposed to my perspective in hiring undergrads in tech. At the end of the day, if I’ve got a choice between a candidate with a French lit degree or a STEM degree, I’m always taking the STEM degree.

There is a difference of course in a specialization that requires specific experience. I am not expecting engineers to have degrees in social work, or vice versa. But the French lit kid can still make a lot of $, and probably more in a lifetime, with a French lit degree, especially from a school like RU never mind Harvard, versus becoming a plumber.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

I'm mostly in agreement with you. That being said, fluency or even a basic knowledge in a foreign language is a benefit both personally and professionally. But you don't need to major in it.

Of course but now some schools including K-12 dumped programs. WVU cancelled all foreign language programs including Spanish and Chinese (by some counts as or more spoken than English).

The STEM STEM STEM push will backfire, people will go the other way, and it will then boomerang back...for some reason we have people who received broad based liberal arts educations now demanding young folks not get it....it's obscene.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

You truly Live in la la land. “Miss the connections they get to make as freshman” stop. So my niece didn’t miss out on connections going to community as a transfer. Credits are credits. Whatever my daughter takes at CC means less credits at her actual school. Won’t she miss connections in your world?
And yes, what they would Pay is an affordable amount. “Poor” kids have many Avenues to inexpensive quality educations, if they choose not to use those routes, it’s on them. So at what income level should people actually have to contribute to their education in your eyes.

The on campus experience is invaluable. It's awful kids miss it. I'm friends with a ton of people from my freshman dorm to this day. It should be available to all. College isn't a jobs program, again. Yes, it's important to make connections in life.

Education should be a basic right. If you live in a state and qualify for admission to a public school there, it should be tuition free, whether you are homeless or the kid of a CEO. Other expenses and grad schools should be interest free loan or pay back a % of your income for a set period. AKA, what existed in CUNY and the Univ of California among other states until public education came under siege from the usual and expected suspects.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

Funny that only 25% think it’s a necessity but applicants are at an all time high.

Ofc...because like many things, it's required for their kids. But helping a poor person through a few cents of taxes is a bridge too far.

I guess we better hope Chad and Brad don't take those jobs at Dad's firm after the big graduation from Nova or Clemson and head to med school or a lot of Gen X and Boomers will be needing those foreign language classes themselves to talk to doctors and nurses.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

Fair point. Rutgers is here for college ready students who can’t afford to go to a private.

I didn’t have much of a choice at the time, but money won’t be a limiting factor for my kids. But I still don’t see a point in wasting money to get an education they could get in state. Overpaying for college is a dumb way to build wealth.

This is of course common sense. I think most alums of RU say RU or an Ivy or close (CMU, Duke, Stanford). The Shop Rite contingent conferring prestige on mid rank SEC and ACC schools or small private ones is shrinking and RU is benefiting.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

Holloway before Congress today

Thanks for the reminder, I felt the ground shake and thought it was an earthquake but it was just the anti semitic cow Elyse from upstate walking into the hearing.

It was SO GREAT to see KING Holloway parry the intellectual minnows and trigger their rage with his comments on RU's diversity.

My personal favorite was when a supporter of the unified reich and adjudicated rapist melted down because he was mad that RU's faculty includes no one who supports the idea that "very fine people" chant "Jew will not replace us" nor anyone who supports having dinner with Kanye and Nick Fuentes. Don't they know being on the faculty requires college degrees at least?

Total BOOM from BOSSIN Holloway.

Maybe the tears from Holloway's detractors can help fund the new SO GREAT Arab Center!!!

 

[vkj91]

Funny that only 25% think it’s a necessity but applicants are at an all time high.

Applications or applicants

 

[vkj91]

The on campus experience is invaluable. It's awful kids miss it. I'm friends with a ton of people from my freshman dorm to this day. It should be available to all. College isn't a jobs program, again. Yes, it's important to make connections in life.

Education should be a basic right. If you live in a state and qualify for admission to a public school there, it should be tuition free, whether you are homeless or the kid of a CEO. Other expenses and grad schools should be interest free loan or pay back a % of your income for a set period. AKA, what existed in CUNY and the Univ of California among other states until public education came under siege from the usual and expected suspects.

Great free college education and living expenses for everyone. Who’s paying for the 150,000 kids to go to and live at Rutgers? And you want college education to be a basic right but not at a community college?

 

[RUDiddy777]

The on campus experience is invaluable. It's awful kids miss it. I'm friends with a ton of people from my freshman dorm to this day. It should be available to all. College isn't a jobs program, again. Yes, it's important to make connections in life.

Education should be a basic right. If you live in a state and qualify for admission to a public school there, it should be tuition free, whether you are homeless or the kid of a CEO. Other expenses and grad schools should be interest free loan or pay back a % of your income for a set period. AKA, what existed in CUNY and the Univ of California among other states until public education came under siege from the usual and expected suspects.

I don’t think just giving RU admission to any high student with a 2.1 high school GPA is the right answer. But we should support trade schools the same way we support universities.

 

[Jtung230]

Applications or applicants

Both

ETA heard the number bounced back to precovid levels.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

Great free college education and living expenses for everyone. Who’s paying for the 150,000 kids to go to and live at Rutgers? And you want college education to be a basic right but not at a community college?

Why would they all go to Rutgers? I said those who can get in. We have other public schools last I checked.

Never said community college shouldn't be a right. It should be. But, for students that DO qualify for a school like RU, they should start there to the extent possible.

Several bills have been proposed to pay including by placing a 50 cent tax on stock trades. Seems pretty fair.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

I don’t think just giving RU admission to any high student with a 2.1 high school GPA is the right answer. But we should support trade schools the same way we support universities.

I am saying admission to A state U that you qualify for, not RU. I would keep the admission reqs as they are, if not raise them. If you have the grades and scores for RU, then you're admitted. If you have them for Kean or Montclair, you're admitted there. If you don't have for any state school, then you go to CC or trades. I would think if it was free you'd get more applicants so the standards would likely increase- as they have as the cost of education has skyrocketed and more parents are considering RU.

And of course the parents that still want to pay for Tampa or whatever have that option. I do private schools in NYS threw a fit when NYS went tuition free for those making under 125k. But the private schools with something to offer will be fine.

 

[vkj91]

Why would they all go to Rutgers? I said those who can get in. We have other public schools last I checked.

Never said community college shouldn't be a right. It should be. But, for students that DO qualify for a school like RU, they should start there to the extent possible.

Several bills have been proposed to pay including by placing a 50 cent tax on stock trades. Seems pretty fair.

If Rutgers was free far more people would go there. It’s worth putting up with a lot of its flawes for free. Most kids I know look at it as a safety school/worst case option because they want to get away. Only person of all my kids friends who went there only went because it was free. Her father is on staff….
If it was free more upper middle class kids would consider it.

 

[mdk02]

Why would they all go to Rutgers? I said those who can get in. We have other public schools last I checked.

Never said community college shouldn't be a right. It should be. But, for students that DO qualify for a school like RU, they should start there to the extent possible.

Several bills have been proposed to pay including by placing a 50 cent tax on stock trades. Seems pretty fair.

Stock trades? There is no stock market in NJ and never will be with proposals like that.

 

[mdk02]

If Rutgers was free far more people would go there. It’s worth putting up with a lot of its flawes for free. Most kids I know look at it as a safety school/worst case option because they want to get away. Only person of all my kids friends who went there only went because it was free. Her father is on staff….
If it was free more upper middle class kids would consider it.

Why should, through taxation, families where the kids decide either to not go to college, go private or out of state pay or enlist in the military pay for college to be free for middle income families?

 

[vkj91]

Why should, through taxation, families where the kids decide either to not go to college, go private or out of state pay or enlist in the military pay for college to be free for middle income families?

Think you quoted the wrong person. I’m not free sh$t guy.

 

[NotInRHouse_anon]

If Rutgers was free far more people would go there. It’s worth putting up with a lot of its flawes for free. Most kids I know look at it as a safety school/worst case option because they want to get away. Only person of all my kids friends who went there only went because it was free. Her father is on staff….
If it was free more upper middle class kids would consider it.

Yes, that is the point. Why do more kids choose in state schools in other states with laws making the schools as close to free as possible? Or why did the best students choose CUNY or the U of Cali when it was free?

The point is not to make school academically easier. Is it to make it accessible.

It would no doubt push the standards of all state schools up...which is a good thing.