OT: Civil War Buffs

[zappaa]

Yeah, but I was thinking more of people like my great grandfather, an educated man whose family was opposed to secession. Just hard to figure.

On this point I agree, very difficult to figure.
We will never know how many educated southerners were conflicted with moral issues…. Yet as you say continued to support the Confederacy.
I would say a good many!

 

[mdk02]

Home states were more important to people than the federal gov back then. Lee thought slavery was a political and moral evil, and he didn't want Virginia to secede, but when it did he felt he had to stand with his home state rather than fight against it (remember Lee was already in the Army when war was looming). The northern states and federal gov were going to force southern states to stay in union instead of allowing peaceful secession - thus "The War of Northern Aggression" as it was called

Lee complained secession was revolution against the founders and their principles. But he also figured it would be odd to be in a union "that can only be maintained by swords and bayonets." He also wrote "If I owned the four millions of slaves in the South I would sacrifice them all to the Union; but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state?"

If an educated Lee felt loyal to his state, and since the North was going to militantly force the South to stay in the Union, its clear to see how common citizens would also feel committed to their state. Most soldiers didn't own slaves. Lee himself considered slave owning a chore and character hazard and got rid of most his by time of the war

I think it was Shelby Foote in the Burns Civil War series that said grammar changed after the Civil War. Before it was "the United States are...." and after "the United States is"

 

[knightfan7]

Apologies if I already posted something like this. I looked thru posts and didn't see anything.

My great grandfather (yep, just one great) was a surgeon in the Confederacy. We have all his letters home from the front. He was in the army that Sherman ran thru the South. They thought their leadership was totally incompetent. He said that sometimes at night, the Union troops were so close they could hear them singing around their campfires. His uniform in his sleeve once had four minie ball holes in it (because of the fold in it) without hitting him. You did not want to got a bullet wound in the Civil War. Options were limited and anesthetic was in its infancy. He kept a diary when he was in med school at University of New Orleans. My favorite entry: "36 hours straight of surgery - then went into town for some horizontal refreshement"

My great great uncle (also Confederacy) was killed at the battle of Savage's Station at age 19. We have the Bible he carried with him. On my Mom's side, we had Union soldiers, but know less about them.

My great grandfather moved to Ohio later in life and was once interviewed for the Akron Beacon Journal. He was asked what he thought would have happened had the South won. He said he thought it would not last long as a country as the southern states didn't have much use for one another and that they would have become a bunch of banana republics.

I may have posted this. My GG Grandfather's Artillery Unit was attached to Sherman's army for a short time, possibly chasing your ancestor. They spent most of the war stationed in and around Foley Island, SC recapturing forts in the Carolina's, including Fort Sumter and Fort Wagner ("Glory"). The Unit was there for the surrender of Joe Johnson's army.

 

[NorthernKnight_rivals]

I think it was Shelby Foote in the Burns Civil War series that said grammar changed after the Civil War. Before it was "the United States are...." and after "the United States is"

Very interesting point. Remember the United States was still a middling to non existent power on the world stage in the 1850s leading up to civil war. Yes we had beaten up on Mexico but England still ruled the roost and the other European powers were working to organize and consolidate power.

I find it fascinating how the South was playing for British recognition and support and how close they came to getting it.

Our day as “The United States - world power” was yet to come…

 

[NickKnight 1]

On this point I agree, very difficult to figure.
We will never know how many educated southerners were conflicted with moral issues…. Yet as you say continued to support the Confederacy.
I would say a good many!

Zap. I just finished watching The Conspirator,
a movie about post civil war trials, of the people responsible for Lincolns assassination.
I thought it was great, Did you see it?. What did you think of it?

 

[T2Kplus20]

On this point I agree, very difficult to figure.
We will never know how many educated southerners were conflicted with moral issues…. Yet as you say continued to support the Confederacy.
I would say a good many!

Most people of these times didn't support the "Confederacy" or "Union" per say. They supported their states. Famous REL quote:

“If Virginia stands by the old Union,” Lee told a friend, “so will I. But if she secedes, then I will follow my native State with my sword, and, if need be, with my life.”

To many, their state was their country.

 

[hoquat63]

Home states were more important to people than the federal gov back then. Lee thought slavery was a political and moral evil, and he didn't want Virginia to secede, but when it did he felt he had to stand with his home state rather than fight against it (remember Lee was already in the Army when war was looming). The northern states and federal gov were going to force southern states to stay in union instead of allowing peaceful secession - thus "The War of Northern Aggression" as it was called

Lee complained secession was revolution against the founders and their principles. But he also figured it would be odd to be in a union "that can only be maintained by swords and bayonets." He also wrote "If I owned the four millions of slaves in the South I would sacrifice them all to the Union; but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state?"

If an educated Lee felt loyal to his state, and since the North was going to militantly force the South to stay in the Union, its clear to see how common citizens would also feel committed to their state. Most soldiers didn't own slaves. Lee himself considered slave owning a chore and character hazard and got rid of most his by time of the war

It can be argued that Lee owned no slaves, they were his wife’s property, When his father in law died and his will stated that his slaves be freed no later than 5 ( I could be off on that #), after his death, Lee dragged his feet on freeing them as long as possible.

 

[SkilletHead2]

I was reading bio last month. It was interesting that Grant thought the Mexican War (and the grasp for more pro slavery states/votes) was a major cause of Civil War. He also said he didn't regard Lee with awe. He said he knew him at West Point so for him Lee was just a dude.

They weren't at West Point together as Grant was 15-16 years younger than Lee. Grant said that they had met in the Mexican War where Grant was fairly low level and Lee was already a general. Grant talked about how impressive Lee was.

While Lee was superintendent at West Point, he tossed James Whistler (Whistler's Mother) out of the academy. Whistler appealed, but Lee and Jeff Davis told him he had gone too far in his misbehavior.

 

[SkilletHead2]

Overall, yes. For many specific soldiers or surgeons, no.

Yes, there are often people who don't think things through. I'm sure you appreciate that.

 

[ashokan]

They weren't at West Point together as Grant was 15-16 years younger than Lee. Grant said that they had met in the Mexican War where Grant was fairly low level and Lee was already a general. Grant talked about how impressive Lee was.

While Lee was superintendent at West Point, he tossed James Whistler (Whistler's Mother) out of the academy. Whistler appealed, but Lee and Jeff Davis told him he had gone too far in his misbehavior.

Thank-you Dr Skills. I knew Grant was younger and thought maybe he knew him from superintendent days but that was in the 50's, Must have meant Mexican War - which is a part of Grant's bio that's a real eye opener. Good book.

"The natural disposition of most people is to clothe a commander of a large army whom they do not know, with almost superhuman abilities. A large part of the National army, for instance, and most of the press of the country, clothed General Lee with just such qualities, but I had known him personally, and knew that he was mortal; and it was just as well that I felt this."

http://www.historyofwar.org/sources/acw/grant/chapter14.html

 

[ashokan]

It can be argued that Lee owned no slaves, they were his wife’s property, When his father in law died and his will stated that his slaves be freed no later than 5 ( I could be off on that #), after his death, Lee dragged his feet on freeing them as long as possible.

Slaves didn't necessarily always want to be free. Lee was a good owner who (in employment ads) insisted his estate foremen treat slaves kindly. Its not like freed slaves could just suddenly do well on their own. Many slaves died after the war

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/16/slavery-starvation-civil-war

 

[Southern Gentleman]

All of my mom’s family and roots were from Arkansas, they fought for the Confederacy

What part of Arkansas if I may ask? My family was from NE Arkansas.

 

[hoquat63]

Slaves didn't necessarily always want to be free. Lee was a good owner who (in employment ads) insisted his estate foremen treat slaves kindly. Its not like freed slaves could just suddenly do well on their own. Many slaves died after the war

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/16/slavery-starvation-civil-war

Not entirely true: from “Reading the Man - A Portait of REL Throigh his Private Letters” by Elizabeth Prhot:
”Worst of all Lee ruptured the Washington and Custis tradition of respecting slave familie. By 1860 he had broken up every family on the estate, some who had been together since My. Vernon days. There was singular distress among the slaves, and the community opinion that Lee was a ’hard taskmaster’ and ‘the worst man I ever see’
Lots of more stuff but I don’t want to make a book out of this post

 

[ashokan]

Not entirely true: from “Reading the Man - A Portait of REL Throigh his Private Letters” by Elizabeth Prhot:
”Worst of all Lee ruptured the Washington and Custis tradition of respecting slave familie. By 1860 he had broken up every family on the estate, some who had been together since My. Vernon days. There was singular distress among the slaves, and the community opinion that Lee was a ’hard taskmaster’ and ‘the worst man I ever see’
Lots of more stuff but I don’t want to make a book out of this post

I don't know what "taskmaster" can mean. I've had abusive taskmasters as bosses, teachers and coaches - had my hair pulled and knocked on my butt lol. Its also popular in recent years to make Lee into a Nazi . Some published accounts from slaves taken from period abolitionist publications have been considered intentionally exaggerated. While I don't doubt a slave-owning, 19th century general could have en edge to him, I do know he was not happy about succession, and was not slavery's most staunch advocate (his family even taught slaves to read).

 

[MADHAT1]

I don't know what "taskmaster" can mean. I've had abusive taskmasters as bosses, teachers and coaches - had my hair pulled and knocked on my butt lol. Its also popular in recent years to make Lee into a Nazi . Some published accounts from slaves taken from period abolitionist publications have been considered intentionally exaggerated. While I don't doubt a slave-owning, 19th century general could have en edge to him, I do know he was not happy about succession, and was not slavery's most staunch advocate (his family even taught slaves to read).

Lee wasn't the saint many try to make him out to be, nor the devil that he seems like to others.
History being updated to show the flaws, ignored before, isn't something anyone should be opposed to , if the facts are right..

 

[ashokan]

Lee wasn't the saint many try to make him out to be, nor the devil that he seems like to others.
History being updated to show the flaws, ignored before, isn't something anyone should be opposed to , if the facts are right..

I don't know much about the saint stuff. I know Grant and other Union generals respected him. The surrender could have gone a lot worse. The whole period and related topics are currently being made toxic (like psychological research) with made-up history by neo-Marxist provocateurs who fabricate history (1619), ignore the Civil War was even fought and toxify anyone related to the South (except their political party which mysteriously remains above all reproach ). "History being updated" is euphemism for what's been going on

 

[hoquat63]

I don't know what "taskmaster" can mean. I've had abusive taskmasters as bosses, teachers and coaches - had my hair pulled and knocked on my butt lol. Its also popular in recent years to make Lee into a Nazi . Some published accounts from slaves taken from period abolitionist publications have been considered intentionally exaggerated. While I don't doubt a slave-owning, 19th century general could have en edge to him, I do know he was not happy about succession, and was not slavery's most staunch advocate (his family even taught slaves to read).

Wife was an advocate of returning freed slaves to Africa. Her father was fairly lenient about work required of his slaves. When REL became responsible, he expected much more work from them, rented many out to others that were demanding. Also, slaves knew will promised them freedom so we’re unhappy for a number of reasons.
Lee did care more about their welfare than others but he expected same discipline from slaves as he did from soldiers.
As someone else said he was not a saint nor was he a really bad guy.
Interesting family background shaped his life. Father Lighthorse Harry Lee deserted family when Lee was young, older brother caused big scandal when he got his wife’s teenage sister pregnant

 

[T2Kplus20]

Little Round Top going through major rehab:

 

[Source]

Interesting dynamic at Rutgers and Princeton at the start of the Civil War.

The day after the firing upon Fort Sumter, Rutgers President and the town fathers all gathered in front of Old Queens and sang "The Star Spangled Banner" and pledged loyalty to the Union. At Princeton, most, if not all, of the students from southern states left voluntarily or otherwise.

Princeton always had a reputation for keeping political leanings at bay. There were a lot of southern students there at the time because Princeton was considered the northernmost "southern college" where more than a handful of southerners would go to school.

At the inaugural football game of 1869, three of the players on the field had Civil War experience - two Rutgers players served for the Union and one Princeton player served for the Confederacy.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

I don't know what "taskmaster" can mean. I've had abusive taskmasters as bosses, teachers and coaches - had my hair pulled and knocked on my butt lol. Its also popular in recent years to make Lee into a Nazi . Some published accounts from slaves taken from period abolitionist publications have been considered intentionally exaggerated. While I don't doubt a slave-owning, 19th century general could have en edge to him, I do know he was not happy about succession, and was not slavery's most staunch advocate (his family even taught slaves to read).

Yeah, what a great slaveholder Lee was.

On June 24, 1859, the New York Tribune published an anonymous letter to the editor describing how Lee ordered the whipping of three enslaved people as punishment for running away. The New York Tribune was a well-known abolitionist paper in the years preceding the Civil War. They often published sensationalized stories about slavery to build public outcry against the inhumanity of slavery and gain support for the abolitionist movement. This article described how after George Washington Parke Custis had died, his son-in-law, Robert E. Lee, proved to be a strict slaveholder, which prompted the three enslaved people to run away. The letter then describes how the overseer took them “into a barn, stripped, and the men received thirty and nine lashes each, from the hands of the slave-whipper, when he refused to whip the girl, and Mr. Lee himself administered the thirty and nine lashes to her.”

Another anonymous letter also published in the Tribune claimed “Col. Lee ordered them whipped. They were two men and one woman. The officer whipped the two men, and said he would not whip the woman, and Col. Lee stripped her and whipped her himself.”

https://www.nps.gov/arho/learn/historyculture/an-unpleasant-legacy.htm

Is this really your idea of Slave Boss of the Year?

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Wife was an advocate of returning freed slaves to Africa. Her father was fairly lenient about work required of his slaves. When REL became responsible, he expected much more work from them, rented many out to others that were demanding. Also, slaves knew will promised them freedom so we’re unhappy for a number of reasons.
Lee did care more about their welfare than others but he expected same discipline from slaves as he did from soldiers.
As someone else said he was not a saint nor was he a really bad guy.
Interesting family background shaped his life. Father Lighthorse Harry Lee deserted family when Lee was young, older brother caused big scandal when he got his wife’s teenage sister pregnant

Lee was a slaveholder. He is, by definition, a bad guy.

 

[hoquat63]

Yeah, what a great slaveholder Lee was.

On June 24, 1859, the New York Tribune published an anonymous letter to the editor describing how Lee ordered the whipping of three enslaved people as punishment for running away. The New York Tribune was a well-known abolitionist paper in the years preceding the Civil War. They often published sensationalized stories about slavery to build public outcry against the inhumanity of slavery and gain support for the abolitionist movement. This article described how after George Washington Parke Custis had died, his son-in-law, Robert E. Lee, proved to be a strict slaveholder, which prompted the three enslaved people to run away. The letter then describes how the overseer took them “into a barn, stripped, and the men received thirty and nine lashes each, from the hands of the slave-whipper, when he refused to whip the girl, and Mr. Lee himself administered the thirty and nine lashes to her.”

Another anonymous letter also published in the Tribune claimed “Col. Lee ordered them whipped. They were two men and one woman. The officer whipped the two men, and said he would not whip the woman, and Col. Lee stripped her and whipped her himself.”

https://www.nps.gov/arho/learn/historyculture/an-unpleasant-legacy.htm

Is this really your idea of Slave Boss of the Year?

That story may be true or it may be propaganda. Can’t be proved. However REL did drag his feet on freeing those slaves that his father in Laws will gave freedom to. Will said something like they should be freed within 5 (?) years and Lee meant to hold on to them for all 5. Slaves knowing they were promised freedom were not happy and some did free themselves early, were caught and brought back. We’re they punished brutally- maybe maybe not.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Saw it on history channel where a civil war historian was talking about uneducated young northers being enticed to head south and be a renegade.
The allure of being a Rebel has always been a thing, even today.

Well it's no different than the Irish coming literally right off the boat being forced to sign up for their country and sent off to war

 

[RUTGERS95]

Interesting dynamic at Rutgers and Princeton at the start of the Civil War.

The day after the firing upon Fort Sumter, Rutgers President and the town fathers all gathered in front of Old Queens and sang "The Star Spangled Banner" and pledged loyalty to the Union. At Princeton, most, if not all, of the students from southern states left voluntarily or otherwise.

Princeton always had a reputation for keeping political leanings at bay. There were a lot of southern students there at the time because Princeton was considered the northernmost "southern college" where more than a handful of southerners would go to school.

At the inaugural football game of 1869, three of the players on the field had Civil War experience - two Rutgers players served for the Union and one Princeton player served for the Confederacy.

I wonder if anyone can tell me how many slaves New Jersey had at the start of the war

 

[Source]

I wonder if anyone can tell me how many slaves New Jersey had at the start of the war

American states that decided to drop slavery before the Civil War, in their histories, fell into two categories:
1. Go cold turkey and immediately ban it.
2. Phase out slavery over time.

New Jersey was in the second category.

There was an article around 1860 in a New Jersey paper that stated about 400 "apprentices" (a slave by any other name) were left in the state.

 

[RUinPinehurst]

Planning on a quick one-day visit to Gettysburg in early May, a "free day" as I hike the AT thru PA. Looking forward to it. Hadn't been there in decades. Anyone been recently?

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

While this is all coming up, please remember there were black slave owners as well. Even a former slave who ended up a slave owner... William Ellison of South Carolina

It was a different time and slavery had been around since HISTORY has been around.. well before there was known a "New World" for western civilization to conquer.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Planning on a quick one-day visit to Gettysburg in early May, a "free day" as I hike the AT thru PA. Looking forward to it. Hadn't been there in decades. Anyone been recently?

As posted above, Little Round Top is closed for a major rehab. One day isn't a lot of time for Gettysburg. Perhaps splurge on a private tour with a Battlefield ranger/guide?

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

American states that decided to drop slavery before the Civil War, in their histories, fell into two categories:
1. Go cold turkey and immediately ban it.
2. Phase out slavery over time.

New Jersey was in the second category.

There was an article around 1860 in a New Jersey paper that stated about 400 "apprentices" (a slave by any other name) were left in the state.

Sometimes people think that the Mason-Dixon line cut through Southern NJ (around AC).. but it ended at teh Delaware River and curved south to its end. I think they say this because there were many southern property owners in Cape May County. Cape May was a summer retreat for southern plantation owners and they would sail up the coast and bring slaves, of course.

Another related Jersey Shore history highlight is Long Branch's 7 Presidents Park. Starting with President Grant in 1869, 7 Presidents made Long Branch the Summer Capitol of the USA. I suppose this might have had some effect on Rutgers own Garret Hobbard being elected Vice President near the turn of the Century.. an office he would not survive, dying in 1899. Had he survived and been reelected with McKinley, he would have become President when McKinley was assassinated in 1901.

 

[Source]

Sometimes people think that the Mason-Dixon line cut through Southern NJ (around AC).. but it ended at teh Delaware River and curved south to its end. I think they say this because there were many southern property owners in Cape May County. Cape May was a summer retreat for southern plantation owners and they would sail up the coast and bring slaves, of course...

What you say about the drawing of the Mason-Dixon line is true. But I think many people looked at the northern part of the line and extended it east into the Atlantic Ocean. If you did that, you would cross the southern tip of New Jersey. But as you stated, that's not how the boundary line was meant to be interpreted.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

While this is all coming up, please remember there were black slave owners as well. Even a former slave who ended up a slave owner... William Ellison of South Carolina

It was a different time and slavery had been around since HISTORY has been around.. well before there was known a "New World" for western civilization to conquer.

Great - Whataboutism has entered the discussion. Let Southern Plantation owners and the traitor states that included slavery prominently in their state constitutions off the hook on thieir roles as oppressors (not forgetting the Jim Crow era, either). All part of the Lost Cause argument.

 

[RUTGERS95]

American states that decided to drop slavery before the Civil War, in their histories, fell into two categories:
1. Go cold turkey and immediately ban it.
2. Phase out slavery over time.

New Jersey was in the second category.

There was an article around 1860 in a New Jersey paper that stated about 400 "apprentices" (a slave by any other name) were left in the state.

over 600 and NJ was the last state in the North to free them which was until 1865

 

[hoquat63]

Well it's no different than the Irish coming literally right off the boat being forced to sign up for their country and sent off to war

Or riot in NYC to protest the draft.

 

[RUaMoose_rivals]

A lot of what you said I have come across often. I also believe I heard that Princeton was know is the Northern most Southern University. But I do realize a lot of southerners went there . As a long time history buff and Civil War reenactor I find some channels like The History Channel to be full of crap most of the time. I have always said the best way to learn is to visit a historic site and talk to a ranger or tour guide. My family , friends and I have a tour scheduled for the end of April in Gettysburg with a tour guide .

Went to the Carter house tour in Franklin TN about a year ago. Very good. There’s still bullet holes visible

 

[hoquat63]

Planning on a quick one-day visit to Gettysburg in early May, a "free day" as I hike the AT thru PA. Looking forward to it. Hadn't been there in decades. Anyone been recently?

One interesting thing to do, if you have time and there is availability- go to the Seminary Ridge Museum and do the cupola tour.

Went to the Carter house tour in Franklin TN about a year ago. Very good. There’s still bullet holes visible

went to Franklin quite a few years ago - before they bought out and tore down the Dominos there. Neat place. One of the Confederate casualites was from FrankLin and died there in his old home

 

[MoreCowbellRU]

Saw it on history channel where a civil war historian was talking about uneducated young northers being enticed to head south and be a renegade.
The allure of being a Rebel has always been a thing, even today.

Could just be one guy talking out of his ***. I'd like to see his back up for that claim. Not saying it didn't happen at all, just that I don't see it being that common.

 

[MoreCowbellRU]

Yes quite a few black men were attacked and killed by the mobs. Black orphanage was burned.
Some equally bad anti black riots after the war in Memphis and New Orleans

Firemen were beating up black people and burning down orphanages?

 

[MoreCowbellRU]

And in the South the Twenty Negro Act you could get an exemption from the draft if you were a slave owner or overseer - because somebody had to keep the slaves in line.
The South also had a purchased substitution for a time.
The South started conscription in 1862 ,the North 1863.
There was plenty of ‘rich man’s war, poor man’s fight’ on both sides. That didn't change the overall moral distinctions between the sides.
Beware of "Lost Cause" nonsense on the topic from people who only read Daughters of the Confederacy approved school books or ought to know better.

Used to love the tour guides down south when I was a kid calling it " the war of northern aggression".

 

[MoreCowbellRU]

I promised my big bro Larry I’d tell you all to plan a trip to Dragonman’s Military Museum in Colorado.
Big Larry says it’s a must see destination for all of you

Where is it? Used to go there a lot. Never saw. In fairness, never looked.

 

[RUinPinehurst]

Firemen were beating up black people and burning down orphanages?

Google the "Wilmington (NC) Massacre of 1898." Post-war south. Old Confederates in action, prominent citizens. Used a Gatling gun, effectively. Josephus Daniels founded Raleigh's News & Observer. A beloved Tar Heel.