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Z

zappaa

Heisman
Jul 27, 2001
75,014
91,811
103
Outside of high energy frantic segments of the game, why do we play off the opposition on the perimeter? we seem to give a small cushion.
Paul had to turn his back to the basket almost immediately after crossing half court, Geo and Ronny have defenders in their hip pocket.
We have to work damn hard for an open 3…We seem to give some space?
 
S

Scangg

Heisman
Mar 19, 2016
25,448
49,369
113
Our 3 point defensive struggles at times and it has a lot to do with over helping. Geo Paul Caleb etc are good at help D and pesky at collapsing on drives but sometimes we are a step slow recovering back out to the shooter.

Especially depending on who you are guarding you need to adjust your help D and how far off you are from your man. Need to stay on shooters and sacrifice a little of the help D a bit more
 
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R

richthedentist

All-American
Aug 2, 2001
11,026
8,584
113
zappaa said:
Outside of high energy frantic segments of the game, why do we play off the opposition on the perimeter? we seem to give a small cushion.
Paul had to turn his back to the basket almost immediately after crossing half court, Geo and Ronny have defenders in their hip pocket.
We have to work damn hard for an open 3…We seem to give some space?
Click to expand...
It’s a good question that I have asked watch the Purdue game we were on top of them for the most part except a couple of lapses here and there we also didn’t double the post and look at the outcome
Look at the comeback yesterday we upped our defensive pressure and you saw what happened
I think against Wisconsin he may have to give the guys a little extra rest play Mag Hyatt and Reiber a little more to keep the guys fresh
 
K

kcg88

Heisman
Aug 11, 2017
10,862
17,230
0
Our defensive scheme seems to emphasize getting into passing lanes rather than straight up man to man defense (there are exceptions, like Jalen Miller). There's also been a clear choice made to allow other teams to shoot three pointers: teams shoot more three pointers against Rutgers than any other Big Ten team. But the upside to that is we do a better job than most at not allowing baskets inside the arc (4th/14 in the Big Ten).
 
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S

Scarlet Shack

Heisman
Feb 3, 2004
26,279
15,961
73
Scangg said:
Our 3 point defensive struggles at times and it has a lot to do with over helping. Geo Paul Caleb etc are good at help D and pesky at collapsing on drives but sometimes we are a step slow recovering back out to the shooter.

Especially depending on who you are guarding you need to adjust your help D and how far off you are from your man. Need to stay on shooters and sacrifice a little of the help D a bit more
Click to expand...

It’s very subtle , but If you watch carefully , we really hedge to help a lot away from the ball, counting on our ability to close out so we help more and be in position to rebound closer to the basket.

It doesn’t take much to be a 1/2 step off on the spacing and then a 1/2 second slow on the close out to stop the shot from getting up .

Experience really helps on this in anticapating where the ball is gojng to go to make up ground on closing out and helping. It’s why Jaden looks lost on defense and why Hyatt is often out of positions to get out over the screens
 
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R

rufeelinit

All-Conference
May 16, 2010
12,647
4,351
0
I think we lack a certain amount of quickness and foot speed to play a more aggressive pressure defense. When we apply token full court pressure the objective is to take time off the shot clock before the other team can get into the front court and start running their offense. Not force a turnover.

Some of the open looks result from our decisions to double team certain players once they are in the post or driving toward the basket. If the player finds the open person on the perimeter they will usually get a good look.

While I think our defense has stepped it up, there are still times when we get caught on switches.

On the other end, we don’t have enough shooters the opposing teams respect to hit outside shots consistently to deter them from focusing on Geo and Ron. Paul’s recent hot streak and Cliff finishing more consistently are making us more dangerous.
 
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Z

zappaa

Heisman
Jul 27, 2001
75,014
91,811
103
Scangg said:
Our 3 point defensive struggles at times and it has a lot to do with over helping. Geo Paul Caleb etc are good at help D and pesky at collapsing on drives but sometimes we are a step slow recovering back out to the shooter.

Especially depending on who you are guarding you need to adjust your help D and how far off you are from your man. Need to stay on shooters and sacrifice a little of the help D a bit more
Click to expand...
I understand our help D and we do a great job with it when the ball gets in the paint.
But, we’re off from the git go?
I noticed 5 feet between Geo and their guard setting up the half court offense
 
Y

Yeah Baby

All-American
Aug 14, 2001
19,261
6,466
0
It was pick your poison last night. That’s a solid team. When we doubled to stop their inside game they buried 3’s. When we guarded them on the line they got Offenaive rebounds. That’s a really good and well coached OSU team.

They didn’t score in the last 3 minutes and really didn’t get many good looks in that stretch. When it was time to lock down we locked down.
 
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S

Scangg

Heisman
Mar 19, 2016
25,448
49,369
113
zappaa said:
I understand our help D and we do a great job with it when the ball gets in the paint.
But, we’re off from the git go?
I noticed 5 feet between Geo and their guard setting up the half court offense
Click to expand...
We want to be in passing and driving lanes vs pressure man which some have said makes more sense with guys who don't have the quick feet and lateral movement

Caleb Miller and Mag are the 3 that really will get up and play in your face defense but for most of our roster it isn't ideal for them
 
Z

zappaa

Heisman
Jul 27, 2001
75,014
91,811
103
Yeah Baby said:
It was pick your poison last night. That’s a solid team. When we doubled to stop their inside game they buried 3’s. When we guarded them on the line they got Offenaive rebounds. That’s a really good and well coached OSU team.

They didn’t score in the last 3 minutes and really didn’t get many good looks in that stretch. When it was time to lock down we locked down.
Click to expand...
At this point, it’s no longer a coincidence we seem to give up an excessive number of 3s
 
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R

RUBubba

All-Conference
Sep 4, 2002
4,958
2,671
113
Depending on the big man as well. We do a lot more "digging", where Geo, Paul, Caleb etc will double the big man and dig at the ball for the steal. Last night Paul went in and got a jump ball out of it.
 
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G

goru7

All-American
Dec 12, 2005
6,432
7,710
113
Scarlet Shack said:
close
Click to expand...
zappaa said:
At this point, it’s no longer a coincidence we seem to give up an excessive number of 3s
Click to expand...
We do not seem to be having the breakdowns in 3 point defense we were having earlier in the year , where guys were wide open. Some of the threes are due to late close outs when the guards are digging down or playing weak side defense and not getting all the over on the swing.
Last night Liddell threw literally a diagonal cross court to Wheeler who was way out and hit a tough 3 , not a lot you could do. Bramham the frosh hit 4-5 catch and shoot jumpers as you have to play off of him as he would go past , he will be a headache for years. But we just have run into some shooters that have been unconscious against us but not everyone else :
1) Gabe Brown (MSU) ;
2) Audige ( Northwestern)
3 ) Ayala and Fatts ) Maryland
4) Willis and Lowee( Minnesota.
Not to mention earlier games against DePaul and UMASS .

a lot of these guys were in slumps but somehow found lightning in a bottle against us. Some of the shots were from the logo. Very frustrating. Until Michigan State ,, we had lost every game where we gave up more than 7 threes but gave up 11-24 and 10-18 against MSU and OSU and still won . Our 2 point defense stepped up but going forward we have to get it down to 7 or less to give us a better chance to win.
 
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B

BillyC80

Heisman
Oct 23, 2006
17,110
15,537
72
goru7 said:
We do not seem to be having the breakdowns in 3 point defense we were having earlier in the year , where guys were wide open. Some of the threes are due to late close outs when the guards are digging down or playing weak side defense and not getting all the over on the swing.
Last night Liddell threw literally a diagonal cross court to Wheeler who was way out and hit a tough 3 , not a lot you could do. Bramham the frosh hit 4-5 catch and shoot jumpers as you have to play off of him as he would go past , he will be a headache for years. But we just have run into some shooters that have been unconscious against us but not everyone else :
1) Gabe Brown (MSU) ;
2) Audige ( Northwestern)
3 ) Ayala and Fatts ) Maryland
4) Willis and Lowee( Minnesota.
Not to mention earlier games against DePaul and UMASS .

a lot of these guys were in slumps but somehow found lightning in a bottle against us. Some of the shots were from the logo. Very frustrating. Until Michigan State ,, we had lost every game where we gave up more than 7 threes but gave up 11-24 and 10-18 against MSU and OSU and still won . Our 2 point defense stepped up but going forward we have to get it down to 7 or less to give us a better chance to win.
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The one that bothered me the most was all the room we were giving Fatts when MD beat us. He was clearly looking for his shot from the time he crossed half court, and yet we kept giving him too much space to shoot, and he was knocking them down at will. I know he’s quick but still, you gotta make him work.
 
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M

MLBash93

All-Conference
Jan 23, 2012
1,507
2,175
113
Maybe I am in the minority. but I rather leave most centers to try and go over cliff and score that way then double them and then have the offense swing the ball for an open 3.

I rather give up the 2 than the 3
 
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Y

Yeah Baby

All-American
Aug 14, 2001
19,261
6,466
0
Scangg said:
Eventually we will run into a team that has an off night from 3 even if they get good looks.... hopefully Saturday
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Somehow we are number 3 in the BIG in scoring defense. I think we just feel like we are being scored on and giving up a lot of 3’s and it seems like teams get hot against us. But I think it’s because we are fans of RU.
 
Z

zappaa

Heisman
Jul 27, 2001
75,014
91,811
103
Yeah Baby said:
Somehow we are number 3 in the BIG in scoring defense. I think we just feel like we are being scored on and giving up a lot of 3’s and it seems like teams get hot against us. But I think it’s because we are fans of RU.
Click to expand...
It makes sense, we are tough team to score 2 on
 
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S

Scangg

Heisman
Mar 19, 2016
25,448
49,369
113
Yeah Baby said:
Somehow we are number 3 in the BIG in scoring defense. I think we just feel like we are being scored on and giving up a lot of 3’s and it seems like teams get hot against us. But I think it’s because we are fans of RU.
Click to expand...
Where do we rank in terms of 3 point % defense and 3 point makes allowed per game?
 
G

Greene Rice FIG

Heisman
Dec 30, 2005
40,437
23,613
0
This is why I think Jalen Miller has value on this team. There is a tremendous benefit putting pressure on the ball.

1. Offense is initiated further from the basket making it less effective
2. Offense is less apt to be initiated and an offense is never run
3. Emotionally draining on opposing guard. I feel pressuring guard is like putting money in a piggy bank. Eventually guard cracks and often it is late in game.
 
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B

billgumpper

All-American
Nov 21, 2012
7,419
6,313
113
zappaa said:
Outside of high energy frantic segments of the game, why do we play off the opposition on the perimeter? we seem to give a small cushion.
Paul had to turn his back to the basket almost immediately after crossing half court, Geo and Ronny have defenders in their hip pocket.
We have to work damn hard for an open 3…We seem to give some space?
Click to expand...
Some of our defenders have to play off or the player they are guarding will blow by them off the dribble, which creates havoc.
 
N

NickKnight 1

All-Conference
Mar 22, 2003
8,778
2,052
0
zappaa said:
Are they?
No, it’s going to the National League.
Universal DH
Click to expand...
Thanks that is what I thought. Looks like somebody got mixed up. Now I can sigh in relief. I'm one that does not want to see pitchers hitting anymore.
 
B

bethlehemfan

Heisman
Sep 6, 2003
15,112
16,398
113
zappaa said:
Outside of high energy frantic segments of the game, why do we play off the opposition on the perimeter? we seem to give a small cushion.
Paul had to turn his back to the basket almost immediately after crossing half court, Geo and Ronny have defenders in their hip pocket.
We have to work damn hard for an open 3…We seem to give some space?
Click to expand...
Are you asking about on the ball or off the ball or both?
 
B

bethlehemfan

Heisman
Sep 6, 2003
15,112
16,398
113
zappaa said:
Both
Click to expand...
Gotcha. Yeah others have mentioned but I think it’s a simple straight up ball body man help defensive philosophy versus ball pressure all over. Nothing too insightful I know but I think it fits our personnel. The help position is going to lead to open 3’s at times but you’re relying on good close outs and preferring to protect the paint and disrupt passing lanes. I am sure they have instructions on who to stay closer to versus who you can slough off so it’s not gonna be consistent depending on who’s out there. Of course that doesn’t cover the ball screen approach.
 
B

bitnez

All-American
Jan 18, 2006
6,479
7,140
113
We defend inside out, and as others have mentioned, we hedge. So, we will be late occasionally on our recovery. But Pike doesn’t want the other team getting layups. He’s willing to accept the other team shooting threes rather than getting to the rim. And, as the numbers bear out, it’s the correct approach because we are an excellent defensive team.
 
Z

zappaa

Heisman
Jul 27, 2001
75,014
91,811
103
bitnez said:
We defend inside out, and as others have mentioned, we hedge. So, we will be late occasionally on our recovery. But Pike doesn’t want the other team getting layups. He’s willing to accept the other team shooting threes rather than getting to the rim. And, as the numbers bear out, it’s the correct approach because we are an excellent defensive team.
Click to expand...
I agree, but as BillyC pointed out.
When a guy gets hot like Fatts from Maryland and that dude from Minnesota, you’ve gotta make it harder on them.
 
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B

bethlehemfan

Heisman
Sep 6, 2003
15,112
16,398
113
zappaa said:
I agree, but as BillyC pointed out.
When a guy gets hot like Fatts from Maryland and that dude from Minnesota, you’ve gotta make it harder on them.
Click to expand...
I don’t remember the Maryland game but Willis that wasn’t really the issue for the most part. We were on him we just couldn’t guard him. We should have denied him imo.
 
B

bitnez

All-American
Jan 18, 2006
6,479
7,140
113
Coaches are stubborn. It’s partly what makes them great. Pike could run doubles or extend the defense up but he believes that a guy won’t shoot 60-70% from 3. And most of time he’s right until you run into a guy like Fatts who was great that night.

Think about it like this (albeit not one guy) — OSU was 6/6 from 3 last night in second half. Pike could’ve changed his philosophy but he stayed true to his defense and the game ended up in 60s and we got the stops when we needed them.
 
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