OT: 80 years ago today

[DJ Spanky]

We entered WWII after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. A Day that will live in Infamy.

 

[MadRU]

 

[WhiteBus]

"December 7, 1941 A Date Which Will Live in Infamy"
Infamy has reached 80 years today.

 

[RUinPinehurst]

Should give us pause to reflect where we've been (not so long ago) and where we're headed. Our nature as a nation has been our ability to come together to meet and defeat adversity. Divided we fall. A day such as Dec 7 should be one of reflection, and a wake up call.

 

[zappaa]

Remembering the brave, humble, courageous Americans of the era.
My dad, the son of Italian immigrants and didn’t speak much English was one of them

 

[T2Kplus20]

Such an awful day when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

 

[RC1978]

My father was stationed in Pearl Harbor as a young officer. Here is my favorite photo of him strolling down a street in PH about a week before it was attacked. He ended becoming a Lt, Cmdr and was part of Adm Nimitz staff. He had a ton of photos that we donated to the Library of Congress.

 

[angmo]

RIP to Bob Dole and Edward Shames, on this dark anniversary. It won't be long before we have no more veterans of the greatest generation.

 

[Southern Gentleman]

The surprise attack by Japan succeeded in sinking many ships and destroying the lives of thousands of brave men and women. But the aftermath successfully United our country to conquer common enemies across the globe.

I hope and pray that we never have to deal with WW3. May God bless our service men and women.

 

[beaced_rivals]

Had gone to a movie,downtown Newark with my buddy Donnie Emerson. Heard the news on the bus going home.Next day heard Roosevelt's speech at school.When i was graduated went to the Army Air Force as an Aviation Cadet.Donnie went into the Marine Corps.Saw him post war but our frienship had gone in a different direction.Another casualty of WW II.

 

[beaced_rivals]

We entered WWII after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. A Day that will live in Infamy.

" A day that will live in infamy" A GREAT Roosveltian quotation

 

[Kbee3]

I always found it weird that we helped Russia and China defeat our common enemies in WWII....the Germans and the Japanese and now we're pals with Germany and Japan, warily eying our enemies Russia and China.

 

[Southern Gentleman]

Had gone to a movie,downtown Newark with my buddy Donnie Emerson. Heard the news on the bus going home.Next day heard Roosevelt's speech at school.When i was graduated went to the Army Air Force as an Aviation Cadet.Donnie went into the Marine Corps.Saw him post war but our frienship had gone in a different direction.Another casualty of WW II.

Beaced, my father was in the Army Air Corp stationed in El Paso, Tx as a gunnery sargeant. Where you ever in El Paso?
Or were you overseas? Thanks for your service wherever you were!

 

[angmo]

Had gone to a movie,downtown Newark with my buddy Donnie Emerson. Heard the news on the bus going home.Next day heard Roosevelt's speech at school.When i was graduated went to the Army Air Force as an Aviation Cadet.Donnie went into the Marine Corps.Saw him post war but our frienship had gone in a different direction.Another casualty of WW II.

Thanks Beaced. Sorry about your friendship. Always like to hear living history. Good and bad.

 

[DJ Spanky]

I always found it weird that we helped Russia and China defeat our common enemies in WWII....the Germans and the Japanese and now we're pals with Germany and Japan, warily eying our enemies Russia and China.

The enemy of my enemy...

With Russia, that was certainly true because we were already wary of them prior to WWII. We only partnered with them because Nazi Germany was a far bigger threat. Would that we have listened to Patton, who wanted to rearm the German troops, turn them around and use them to drive the Soviets back to Russia.

 

[mdk02]

The enemy of my enemy...

With Russia, that was certainly true because we were already wary of them prior to WWII. We only partnered with them because Nazi Germany was a far bigger threat. Would that we have listened to Patton, who wanted to rearm the German troops, turn them around and use them to drive the Soviets back to Russia.

We helped Chiang Kai-shek, not Mao.

 

[DJ Spanky]

We helped Chiang Kai-shek, not Mao.

I know, that's why I only commented on Russia.

 

[WhiteBus]

Patton was right. We should have continued straight to Moscow.

 

[Roy_Faulker]

That would have been a hell of a fight.

I always wondered if we’d use nukes on Russia to achieve that goal if we committed to removing Russia from Western Europe and beyond.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Patton was right. We should have continued straight to Moscow.

Yup. He saw what a threat they'd become.

 

[mdk02]

I know, that's why I only commented on Russia.

But Kbee did.

 

[mdk02]

Patton was right. We should have continued straight to Moscow.

Whoa. They had the T-34 in numbers that would have made mincemeat out of the Shermans. We had the P-51 which would have created havoc. That would have been a formula for 6 figure KIA for the US and Brits (who were running out of men) and 7 figure KIA for the USSR. Definitely not a straight line.

 

[WhiteBus]

Whoa. They had the T-34 in numbers that would have made mincemeat out of the Shermans. We had the P-51 which would have created havoc. That would have been a formula for 6 figure KIA for the US and Brits (who were running out of men) and 7 figure KIA for the USSR. Definitely not a straight line.

We had the bomb. Game, set,match.

 

[mdk02]

We had the bomb. Game, set,match.

But not a stockpile. And Red Army might have been in Paris before it could be used. 250,000+ KIA in the process but Stalin was willing to accept 100,000 KIA for the honor of taking Berlin as opposed to the Allies.

 

[WhiteBus]

Didn't need a stockpile. Just a few. They didn't know how many we had until years later.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Whoa. They had the T-34 in numbers that would have made mincemeat out of the Shermans. We had the P-51 which would have created havoc. That would have been a formula for 6 figure KIA for the US and Brits (who were running out of men) and 7 figure KIA for the USSR. Definitely not a straight line.

oh come on.. why are you ignoring air power? Allies had enough tanks and the vastly superior airpower would have made the job a lot easier. And artillery...

This is a good read.. Was the USSR Military a Steamroller (in short it shows that the size of the US and Russian military was about the same at the end of WWII.

Also.. if we really were interested in attacking Russia.. Lend/Lease would have ended a lot earlier.. here's what we sent them..

 

[DJ Spanky]

oh come on.. why are you ignoring air power? Allies had enough tanks and the vastly superior airpower would have made the job a lot easier.

Gotta agree with this. By the end of WWII we ruled the skies. Russia wasn't anywhere close to us, hell, many of their planes came from us. Additionally, I forget which of our planes were designed for this, but we had significant tank killing fire power in the skies which would have wiped the floor with their T-34's. In fact one of those was what gave the Pentagon years later the desire for the Warthog.

 

[Roy_Faulker]

Also.. if we really were interested in attacking Russia.. Lend/Lease would have ended a lot earlier.. here's what we sent them..

This is a key point - without the Allie’s support the Russians may have collapsed.

 

[mdk02]

1. The size of the US and USSR militaries was about the same, but roughly 35% of the US forces were in the Pacific as opposed to 15% of the USSR.

2. The P-47 was the primary tank killer along with the UK Hawker Typhoon, but the Russian Sturmovik (sp?) was an even better tank killer, and I believe the inspiration for the Warthog. And the bomber logistics, particularly if you're talking going to Moscow as opposed the Germany, worked against the Allies. Also questionable whether the P-51, despite it's great range, was capable of escort all the way to Moscow. And remember, in May 1945 100% of the B-29's were in the Pacific. So a march to Moscow a la Patton would have been done without bomber support.

3. They may have collapsed in 1941-2, but not 1945.

 

[WhiteBus]

1. The size of the US and USSR militaries was about the same, but roughly 35% of the US forces were in the Pacific as opposed to 15% of the USSR.

2. The P-47 was the primary tank killer along with the UK Hawker Typhoon, but the Russian Sturmovik (sp?) was an even better tank killer, and I believe the inspiration for the Warthog. And the bomber logistics, particularly if you're talking going to Moscow as opposed the Germany, worked against the Allies. Also questionable whether the P-51, despite it's great range, was capable of escort all the way to Moscow. And remember, in May 1945 100% of the B-29's were in the Pacific. So a march to Moscow a la Patton would have been done without bomber support.

3. They may have collapsed in 1941-2, but not 1945.

All of the bombers, all of the men, ships aircraft carriers were no longer needed after Japan surrendered. The Russian had next to nobody to defend from the East. They couldn't protect 2 fronts. It would have been an easy run in from the Pacific to Moscow. Their best unit were in the East on the Berlin boarder

 

[mdk02]

All of the bombers, all of the men, ships aircraft carriers were no longer needed after Japan surrendered. The Russian had next to nobody to defend from the East. They couldn't protect 2 fronts. It would have been an easy run in from the Pacific to Moscow. Their best unit were in the East on the Berlin boarder

1. Not exactly Patton continuing straight to Moscow.

2. When all the infrastructure is destroyed, if need be, by the Russians, that's what, 2000-2500 miles to Moscow from Valivostok? Easy run? I don't think so.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

1. The size of the US and USSR militaries was about the same, but roughly 35% of the US forces were in the Pacific as opposed to 15% of the USSR.

Oil fields in the Caucuses would be bombed from middle east bases.

In any case we had beaten Germany and, as a nation, were tired of war. So it was a bad idea. We had wartime propaganda propping up the "ally" USSR and had given them much.. might have been a hard sell back at home to continue to sacrifice blood and treasure to defeat an "ally".

In terms of today.. do we have the stomach to go to war over Ukraine or Taiwan? Not doing so could have the same ramifications as not standing up to Germany over the Rhineland or Czechoslovakia or Austria.

 

[WhiteBus]

1. Not exactly Patton continuing straight to Moscow.

2. When all the infrastructure is destroyed, if need be, by the Russians, that's what, 2000-2500 miles to Moscow from Valivostok? Easy run? I don't think so.

Who was going to stop them?? Who said Patton had to come in from the West?
We had better weapons, a far superior air force, the biggest Navy in the world. The Russian were still using horses to pull canons into Berlin.

 

[Kbee3]

Patton was right. We should have continued straight to Moscow.

Did he say that before or after he was smacking around some of his wounded soldiers in their hospital beds ?

 

[mdk02]

Who was going to stop them?? Who said Patton had to come in from the West?
We had better weapons, a far superior air force, the biggest Navy in the world. The Russian were still using horses to pull canons into Berlin.

What difference would a navy make? Better weapons? In some areas, but definitely not tanks. Wasn't the AK in use back then? Take that over the M-1 any day of the week. And YOU said Patton was just going just going to continue on from the Elbe.

 

[WhiteBus]

What difference would a navy make? Better weapons? In some areas, but definitely not tanks. Wasn't the AK in use back then? Take that over the M-1 any day of the week. And YOU said Patton was just going just going to continue on from the Elbe.

What good is a Navy?? If you don't know the answer to that then there is no use talking to you.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Wasn't the AK in use back then?

A few years too early for that.

 

[Roy_Faulker]

There are several books written about the tactics of a conventional land war between NATO and Warsaw Pact countries. Air power wouldn’t be enough to tip the scales against an enemy willing to throw bodies into the meat grinder without regard for their lives (see China).

 

[WhiteBus]

There are several books written about the tactics of a conventional land war between NATO and Warsaw Pact countries. Air power wouldn’t be enough to tip the scales against an enemy willing to throw bodies into the meat grinder without regard for their lives (see China).

Those books were written in the 50s and early 60s, right?? Not that the US had the stomach to extend the war to go against one our our allies but the day that Japan surrendered the US started reducing our forces and ended the build up of weapons. Russia did the reverse. They kept building their war machine. By 1949 they had the bomb and the Cold War was on.

 

[Roy_Faulker]

Most recent I read was 1978. The Third World War: August 1985 by General Sir John Hackett.