An Honest Look at Recruiting

[ouchmyknee]

I find it amazing that so many of the fans are unhappy with our recruiting. The reality is that we are recruiting about where we should be based on the state of the program. In my mind, we're still not going to pull in a 5-star recruit. So, our ceiling is probably a high 4-star player. If we can pull in 2 4-stars per class, that would be phenomenal for where we are at the moment versus our peer set. In reality, we should prob be getting 1 4-star, a few 3-stars, and maybe we stretch for an underrated 2-star.

Pike has done a great job getting players to play up to their potential and getting a few who have played better than their star ranking.

We still don't have the history of success to recruit off of and when compared to our peer set, we're arguably sitting at the bottom there. We do have a nice practice facility. There we're prob sitting in the middle top. We have no track record of sending players to the NBA.

So, we're essentially recruiting where we should be IMO. Now, if you look at our current recruiting versus our recruiting over the last 15-20 years, we are bringing in a much higher-level recruit (or at least recruits who live up to their potential). This is a credit to Pike. Prior to Pike, many of the players buried on our bench would most likely be playing major minutes. Have we all forgotten the days of some of our past players getting major run? I don't want to name names out of respect for those former players, but there were many times when we only had one legitimate conference player on the court.

Reality is that we just planted our flag two seasons ago, but last season was a wash because no one got to experience the thrill. If we can maintain momentum, then I truly believe we'll start to see our recruiting tick up. If SHU and SJU begin to stumble, that will definitely help because believe it or not, they have more to sell than us right now.

 

[RepeatedCrown6]

At this point and where we are, rutgers shouldn't even consider a two star player. Granted those aren't really common.

Every guy we pull should be within the top 300 of their class. I know Geo wasn't that but we should be getting a top 125 kid every year at least by now

 

[jordkap]

At this point and where we are, rutgers shouldn't even consider a two star player. Granted those aren't really common.

Every guy we pull should be within the top 300 of their class. I know Geo wasn't that but we should be getting a top 125 kid every year at least by now

I’m fine with Pike taking an unrated guy every now and again. Just would prefer to keep it to 1 or so max per class.

 

[RutgHoops]

The correlation between basketball recruiting rankings and college basketball success are far, far, far less than college football. I like Rivals and enjoy following the kids we are after, but I am MUCH more interested in reading practice reports and hearing about the team than I am in reading about recruiting.

Not sure the recruiting sites put anywhere near the effort in basketball recruiting as they do in CFB recruiting. The idea that in very limited watching these sites are able to discern the #88 recruit from the #240 recruit is folly. Much, much easier in football to discern a "high level" kid from a "mid-major/low major" kid (imo). Indiana, as just one example, has "outrecruited us" by a margin every year and has lost 5 of 6 to us and hasn't finished ahead of us in the standings in three years.

It seems to me we are recruiting kids at about the same level that has led to 20-11/11-9 and 16-12/10-10 in back to back years. Two of the best years in program history and possibly the second best back to back seasons in program history. Not sure why folks see an issue. When you can talk about an HCs teams as some of the best in program history it seems prudent to sit back and see how it all unfolds (and yes I understand that is not what message boards are about.....but still).

Just my $0.02

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

At this point and where we are, rutgers shouldn't even consider a two star player. Granted those aren't really common.

Every guy we pull should be within the top 300 of their class. I know Geo wasn't that but we should be getting a top 125 kid every year at least by now

The primary reason we failed over the years is this type of thinking. This is even more true today than it was pre portal and pre NIL.

Geo wasn't a top 300 kid and Harper only became a better "recruit" after he committed. Harper would have never been on your radar.

Pike is recruiting to a system. Pike is looking for more than what a star may say. Don't think the folks at Rivals gave Myles Johnson an extra star because he was an engineer and succeeded in the classroom and would be pivotal in recruiting other engineers.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

Why on Earth would any kid, player or not, go to Seton Hall or Saint Johns over Rutgers ?

 

[NightKnight]

Here's a our middle of the pack B1G peer group as I see it: Penn St. Nebraska, Wisconsin, Indiana, Maryland. We are recruiting on par with Nebraska and Penn St. We are far below the other three. This is far, far below the elite of the B1G.
Pike is the best coach of this peer group and the best we've had in about 40 years...maybe longer...maybe ever. We're located in more fertile recruiting territory than any of these teams (Maryland is a close 2nd). Our trajectory is better than our peer group. Our facilities are about even. Our fan support is on the rise. We can get lucky with diamonds in the rough but winning over the long haul and staying mid-tier requires improved recruiting. The 2020-21 freshman class year was nearly a wash-out that we can ill-afford again.

 

[kcg88]

The fact is that teams don't go from missing the tournament for 30 straight seasons to making it every single year. So let's accept that. It took Scott Drew at Baylor five years to make it once. Then they alternated making and missing for six seasons. Then they made it four years in a row, then missed it once, then three straight makes, winning the title in the third of those.

Tony Bennett got Virginia to the tournament in Year 3 but then missed in Year 4. Bob Huggins made the dance five straight years at WVU and then missed it twice in 2013 and 2014. Matt Painter also missed the tournament in both 2013 and 2014. These are some of the best coaches in the sport.

So let's accept right now that Rutgers is very likely to miss the tournament in at least one of the next 2-3 seasons. That's the natural flow of things for almost every program, especially ones that are building. With Pikiell at least I think it's going to be exceptionally unlikely that things crater the way they did under the last three coaches because he does bring in guys who stay and build the program.

The transfer portal also means the penalty for taking a high schooler that doesn't work out is smaller than ever. He gets to campus, doesn't hit the potential you saw, you process him out the door. That's just reality these days, and Pikiell IMO has done a pretty good job in the portal bringing in Young, Yeboah, and Hyatt. There are tons of high-major caliber players in the portal every offseason and as long as you're a half-stable program you can bring one or two a year in. TCU, Washington State, Mississippi State, etc all brought in good transfer this offseason.

I'm someone who raised red flags about his recruiting a few seasons ago but I've come around. I think what he's doing is probably the right strategy at a place like Rutgers. It's hard to beat Villanova and UConn for local top-75 guys, that's just the truth. So by all means talk to them and their coaches and if you think they'll consider Rutgers then go for it (see: Cliff), but you can waste an awful lot of time and energy just getting Rutgers in a guy's final 5 schools just to have him pick the school he was always going to pick.

So as @Greene Rice FIG said, Pikiell recruits guys to his system. Does it lower the ceiling? Yeah, probably. But it also raises the floor.

 

[kcg88]

The 2020-21 freshman class year was nearly a wash-out that we can ill-afford again.

Huh? Cliff Omoruyi is our starting center and getting breakout buzz and Mawot Mag is going to be in the rotation. I'm down Palmquist. Reiber is still TBD. I wouldn't call it a washout just because of last season. We had a very clear experienced 1-4 rotation of six players. It was going to be very hard to any freshman to break in, then throw in COVID and an injury to Mag.

 

[RutgHoops]

Here's a our middle of the pack B1G peer group as I see it: Penn St. Nebraska, Wisconsin, Indiana, Maryland. We are recruiting on par with Nebraska and Penn St. We are far below the other three. This is far, far below the elite of the B1G.
Pike is the best coach of this peer group and the best we've had in about 40 years...maybe longer...maybe ever. We're located in more fertile recruiting territory than any of these teams (Maryland is a close 2nd). Our trajectory is better than our peer group. Our facilities are about even. Our fan support is on the rise. We can get lucky with diamonds in the rough but winning over the long haul and staying mid-tier requires improved recruiting. The 2020-21 freshman class year was nearly a wash-out that we can ill-afford again.

Love your posts, but very much disagree.

The idea the 2020-21 class " was nearly a wash-out that we can ill-afford again" is way premature. There is no way one would have considered the '17-'18 class core to our NCAA success after Geo and Doucoure's frosh year while Myles sat out on a RS. You could have made real $$$ predicting that group would help lead us to back to back NCAA tournament years.

I think Cliff has the potential to be/will be the best big man at Rutgers in a generation and am still somewhat bullish on Mag if he can stay healthy. Time will tell. But I don't see a "washout". Would you really take Maryland's class of: Marcus Dockery, James Graham and Aquan Smart over our class?

 

[kcg88]

You know who tried to recruit the bigger fish? Richard Pitino at Minnesota. Minnesota produced a ton of talent and he went hard after guys like Tre Jones, Matthew Hurt, Jalen Suggs, Nate Reuvers, etc. He did get one in Daniel Oturu but otherwise it turned out to be a lot of wasted time and Minnesota wound up with really really bad depth because then he wound up having to recruit guys even lower-rated than ones he could've gotten had he not gone after those bigger players.

The right coach could land 5-star talent at Rutgers or Minnesota. Richard Pitino was not that coach, but he tried anyway. I don't think Steve Pikiell is that coach either. But there's something to be said for recognizing who you are and where your strengths and weaknesses lie.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

“recruiting” is what a talking head thinks about college basketball prospects. Results are really the best report card on recruiting (no quotations).

Pikiell’s 2nd best “recruiting” win was Mathis. Unfortunately Mathis fit the prototype of the recruit of the past 3 or so regimes at RU. He had the stars and had warts. Warts that could t be fixed and that couldn’t be part of the core of a winning program.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Why on Earth would any kid, player or not, go to Seton Hall or Saint Johns over Rutgers ?

There are pluses and minuses to each school. It all depends on the individual. I don’t like this kind of thinking.

 

[Perricone7]

Big 10, program on the rise, NJ/NYC market, excellent facilities, etc. Why would we not land a top 100 and a top 150 player each class? Some of these excuses remind me of when people said Ash was recruiting "Rutgers men".

 

[RutgHoops]

Big 10, program on the rise, NJ/NYC market, excellent facilities, etc. Why would we not land a top 100 and a top 150 player each class? Some of these excuses remind me of when people said Ash was recruiting "Rutgers men".

Was Geo a Top 100/150 kid in his class? You think You think Isiah Washington (Minnesota #62 recruit) was better than Geo? Myles Cale (Seton hall #76) was better? Two kids in our backyard who Pike wanted Geo over.

I can go on and on just with the teams we play/in our league. If Pike liked Geo over those guys, and being he was Pike's #1 priority recruit in '17 it seems that way, wouldn't one think Pike's ability to "rank" a kid is significantly better than the two guys left at Rivals who do college basketball rankings?

I went on the Rivals BB Recruiting board after Simpson committed, and none of the Rivals writers saw him at either of the AAU events he played. So they'll rank 40 or so PGs ahead of him. How in the world is that an accurate "ranking" of Derek Simpson?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Was Geo a Top 100/150 kid in his class? You think You think Isiah Washington (Minnesota #62 recruit) was better than Geo? Myles Cale (Seton hall #76) was better? Two kids in our backyard who Pike wanted Geo over.

He was for one game in his career.....unfortunately it was against us.

https://barttorvik.com/box.php?muid=RutgersMinnesota1-12&year=2019

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Big 10, program on the rise, NJ/NYC market, excellent facilities, etc. Why would we not land a top 100 and a top 150 player each class? Some of these excuses remind me of when people said Ash was recruiting "Rutgers men".

The difference is Pike has been to the NCAAs 2 years in a row.

There is no doubt Pike should be able to fish in nicer ponds than a few years ago. It is a long process. In today's world I want to be careful recruiting top 100 kids. Player retention is now a very important part of a coach's job. Recruiting egos makes that very tough. I trust Pike in what he is doing.

 

[Mr. Magoo1]

Here's a our middle of the pack B1G peer group as I see it: Penn St. Nebraska, Wisconsin, Indiana, Maryland. We are recruiting on par with Nebraska and Penn St. We are far below the other three. This is far, far below the elite of the B1G.
Pike is the best coach of this peer group and the best we've had in about 40 years...maybe longer...maybe ever. We're located in more fertile recruiting territory than any of these teams (Maryland is a close 2nd). Our trajectory is better than our peer group. Our facilities are about even. Our fan support is on the rise. We can get lucky with diamonds in the rough but winning over the long haul and staying mid-tier requires improved recruiting. The 2020-21 freshman class year was nearly a wash-out that we can ill-afford again.

I don’t think Maryland is in our “peer” group. They have a recent B1G regular season title, lots more NCAA appearances…and even a national championship..albeit 20 years ago. They consistently recruit better than us. Also, you think Pike is a better coach than Turgeon? I happen to think both are below average game coaches, but the recruiting isn’t close. I also think Hoiberg is a better coach than Pike. He has an NBA resume and was exceptional at Iowa State. It hasn’t yet translated at Nebraska but his recruiting has picked up and he even got a 5 star this year. His group of no-names took us apart last year. I believe Gard is better also, but he’s had some recent issues. Pike’s strengths are his character and his ability to recruit and develop under-the-radar talent. He is also becoming a program builder since he brought us from the ashes and seems to be a perfect fit here, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[dpwhite]

Pikiell laid it out for us on day one. This is how he is going to do it. Under the radar guys and guys he can develop. If you want flashy stars, this isn’t going to be the program for you.

 

[GORU2014]

If SHU and SJU begin to stumble, that will definitely help because believe it or not, they have more to sell than us right now.

Agree with you except for this. Results wise, maybe SHU has more to sell, but beyond that I think we’re in better shape than SHU or SJU in most regards (practice facility, coaching staff, current roster, conference/exposure, etc.).

 

[motel00]

Pikiell laid it out for us on day one. This is how is going to do. Under the radar guys and guys he can develop. If you want flashy stars, this isn’t going to be the program for you.

Agreed. And the proof is in the pudding. Pike has done an amazing job.

 

[BIGRUBIGDBIGredmachine]

Back-to-back NCAA Tourneys will be a big help in proving to top tier recruits that this program can be a regular Big Dance team. I know we would've been dancing in the 2020 Tourney but that cancellation unfortunately was a setback.

 

[SirScarlet]

What i can't believe is that this has to be explained to some people with fisher price nursery rhyme blocks

Parts of this fanbase are an embarassment

 

[jerzeyguy]

Whatever happened to Chris Bunch coming back for a 2nd visit?

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

Pikiell laid it out for us on day one. This is how he is going to do it. Under the radar guys and guys he can develop. If you want flashy stars, this isn’t going to be the program for you.

A lot of bandwagon fans want 4 stars only and will complain when they don't come. They will never be satisfied and will never understand how Pikiell likes to build his teams.

I understand it and agree with so much I made it my Signature.

Signature​

Steve Pikiell: " I want under-recruited kids that will embrace the challenge "

 

[Russ Wood]

Why on Earth would any kid, player or not, go to Seton Hall or Saint Johns over Rutgers ?

Is this one of those, um, rhetorical questions?

 

[RutgHoops]

Whatever happened to Chris Bunch coming back for a 2nd visit?

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Is this one of those, um, rhetorical questions?

Not sure what the poster meant by that, but SJU might appeal to some kids because they get to play a lot of home games at the Garden.

 

[RUsojo]

You know who tried to recruit the bigger fish? Richard Pitino at Minnesota. Minnesota produced a ton of talent and he went hard after guys like Tre Jones, Matthew Hurt, Jalen Suggs, Nate Reuvers, etc. He did get one in Daniel Oturu but otherwise it turned out to be a lot of wasted time and Minnesota wound up with really really bad depth because then he wound up having to recruit guys even lower-rated than ones he could've gotten had he not gone after those bigger players.

The right coach could land 5-star talent at Rutgers or Minnesota. Richard Pitino was not that coach, but he tried anyway. I don't think Steve Pikiell is that coach either. But there's something to be said for recognizing who you are and where your strengths and weaknesses lie.

Just for the record recently Jalen Suggs literally said the opposite of what your posting. He said Pitino didn’t really recruit him hard. He was ready to go to Minnesota but Pitino wouldn’t show up to his games or practices so he reconsidered.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I don’t think Maryland is in our “peer” group. They have a recent B1G regular season title, lots more NCAA appearances…and even a national championship..albeit 20 years ago. They consistently recruit better than us. Also, you think Pike is a better coach than Turgeon? I happen to think both are below average game coaches, but the recruiting isn’t close. I also think Hoiberg is a better coach than Pike. He has an NBA resume and was exceptional at Iowa State. It hasn’t yet translated at Nebraska but his recruiting has picked up and he even got a 5 star this year. His group of no-names took us apart last year. I believe Gard

I don’t think Maryland is in our “peer” group. They have a recent B1G regular season title, lots more NCAA appearances…and even a national championship..albeit 20 years ago. They consistently recruit better than us. Also, you think Pike is a better coach than Turgeon? I happen to think both are below average game coaches, but the recruiting isn’t close. I also think Hoiberg is a better coach than Pike. He has an NBA resume and was exceptional at Iowa State. It hasn’t yet translated at Nebraska but his recruiting has picked up and he even got a 5 star this year. His group of no-names took us apart last year. I believe Gard is better also, but he’s had some recent issues. Pike’s strengths are his character and his ability to recruit and develop under-the-radar talent. He is also becoming a program builder since he brought us from the ashes and seems to be a perfect fit here, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

Hoiberg is a better coach than Pikiell?
Gard is a better coach than Pike?
Pike isn’t a better coach than Turgeon?

someone needs a history lesson on our hard it is to win here….and how easy it is there

 

[Mr. Magoo1]

It’s easier to win there because the players have historically been better. Recruiting is a part of being a good coach. I also believe Hoiberg and Gard are better game coaches. Turgeon is not, although he coached his team up last season.

 

[rucoe89]

Why on Earth would any kid, player or not, go to Seton Hall or Saint Johns over Rutgers ?

Bachelors of Arts in Middle-Age European Renaissance Basket Weaving

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

It’s easier to win there because the players have historically been better. Recruiting is a part of being a good coach. I also believe Hoiberg and Gard are better game coaches. Turgeon is not, although he coached his team up last season.

How do you refine recruiting?

 

[Mr. Magoo1]

If you mean define, the it’s merely getting the best players and developing them. Pike doesn’t get the best players, but he does develop them.

Hoiberg’s record, For example, at Iowa State was 115-56. Then he coached in the NBA. His recruiting is far better. I like Pike a lot but you can’t compare that resume with his right now.

Gard is 119-69 with a recent B1G regular season title. Turgeon is 221-113 with a recent B1G regular season title.

if you step away from being a fan, almost no poll will have Pike ahead of Hoiberg, Gard, or Turgeon as a coach. Not a slight on Pike, but they are what the records say they are.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

What is the best player?

I am about as negative as they come. No way gard or Turgeon are better coaches than Pike. Gard stepped in to a great situation at WISCONSIN. Many of his players don’t respect him.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Is Aaron Boone a better manager than ……

 

[Mr. Magoo1]

What is the best player?

I am about as negative as they come. No way gard or Turgeon are better coaches than Pike. Gard stepped in to a great situation at WISCONSIN. Many of his players don’t respect him.

Big problem right now with Gard, no doubt
And I agree with you that Turgeon is not a good game coach. I do think Gard is a good game coach, although I’m not a fan of their style. I also think Hoiberg is a good game coach although many here would think his style is very undisciplined. IMO, all three are better recruiters than Pike and Hoiberg and, arguably Gard, are better game coaches than Pike. We’ll just disagree here.

 

[JFK20]

I am sorry but there is a pretty big gap between not expecting to land a 5 star (which I agree with obviously) and offering a kid who averaged 2 points and 3 rebounds a game during his summer AAU tournament season after missing on the first dozen post recruits you offered.

Somewhere there has to be a middle ground.

 

[Perricone7]

Was Geo a Top 100/150 kid in his class? You think You think Isiah Washington (Minnesota #62 recruit) was better than Geo? Myles Cale (Seton hall #76) was better? Two kids in our backyard who Pike wanted Geo over.

I can go on and on just with the teams we play/in our league. If Pike liked Geo over those guys, and being he was Pike's #1 priority recruit in '17 it seems that way, wouldn't one think Pike's ability to "rank" a kid is significantly better than the two guys left at Rivals who do college basketball rankings?

I went on the Rivals BB Recruiting board after Simpson committed, and none of the Rivals writers saw him at either of the AAU events he played. So they'll rank 40 or so PGs ahead of him. How in the world is that an accurate "ranking" of Derek Simpson?

Was Geo a Top 100/150 kid in his class? You think You think Isiah Washington (Minnesota #62 recruit) was better than Geo? Myles Cale (Seton hall #76) was better? Two kids in our backyard who Pike wanted Geo over.

I can go on and on just with the teams we play/in our league. If Pike liked Geo over those guys, and being he was Pike's #1 priority recruit in '17 it seems that way, wouldn't one think Pike's ability to "rank" a kid is significantly better than the two guys left at Rivals who do college basketball rankings?

I went on the Rivals BB Recruiting board after Simpson committed, and none of the Rivals writers saw him at either of the AAU events he played. So they'll rank 40 or so PGs ahead of him. How in the world is that an accurate "ranking" of Derek Simpson?

You are citing an exception to the rule. Credit to pike for finding diamonds in the rough. Let’s not forget Mensah, thiam, bullock, kiss, etc. were also 200+ ranked. Do you want to be a bubble team or can we begin to expect top 25 teams? You know who consistently recruits top 100 players? Villanova, Kansas, duke, Michigan, Ohio state, etc.

 

[jerzeyguy]

Next yr will the story. The roster will be stacked with these under the radar types. Rieber, Palmquist, Miller, Simpson, Woolfolk - will all be part of the 10 man rotation and have to contribute. We'll know soon if this formula is the right approach