Upon further review...

[RUich]

it may well be that our team was playing way over its head early on. Full of confidence, they were hitting those elusive 3's and surviving poor free throws. Some of the teams we beat may not have been hitting on all cylinders when we met. The euphoria of getting national attention and being ranked is clearly gone. The team looks lost and disconnected.
Cannot imagine us being ranked much longer.
The rest of the season is a mystery to me. Maybe they can pull it together, but I just don't see the energy of last season or the beginning of this one.

 

[shields]

Don't want us ranked anymore.

 

[IL Lusciato]

it may well be that our team was playing way over its head early on. Full of confidence, they were hitting those elusive 3's and surviving poor free throws. Some of the teams we beat may not have been hitting on all cylinders when we met. The euphoria of getting national attention and being ranked is clearly gone. The team looks lost and disconnected.
Cannot imagine us being ranked much longer.
The rest of the season is a mystery to me. Maybe they can pull it together, but I just don't see the energy of last season or the beginning of this one.

We won't be ranked, and shouldn't be. Another year of being a Rutgers fan. I remember the thread earlier this year: "is it really happening???"

Well no, it is not.

 

[RUChoppin]

Michigan State gave the defensive blueprint against us, and OSU threw a lot of the same at us.

- Extend the defense well out past the three point line
- Harass the guards at the top and don't let them get into a rhythm or set up a weave
- Stay home on the guards when Young/Mathis penetrate to stop them from kicking out, and let them try to carry the team without Harper, Baker, or Johnson
- Foul us if we get the ball in the post, or if Mathis penetrates

Our offense stagnates, the passing stops, and people try to play hero ball. Similar happened in the first game against OSU when Johnson went out and we became one dimensional.

 

[Rutgers25]

Michigan State gave the defensive blueprint against us, and OSU threw a lot of the same at us.

- Extend the defense well out past the three point line
- Harass the guards at the top and don't let them get into a rhythm or set up a weave
- Stay home on the guards when Young/Mathis penetrate to stop them from kicking out, and let them try to carry the team without Harper, Baker, or Johnson
- Foul us if we get the ball in the post, or if Mathis penetrates

Our offense stagnates, the passing stops, and people try to play hero ball. Similar happened in the first game against OSU when Johnson went out and we became one dimensional.

THIS

If we had a rebounding presence, we could make teams pay when Young and Mathis drive but we don’t. Not to mention that Johnson is no longer a viable post option. Also not to mention that geo can’t drive.

 

[Mr. Magoo1]

Don't want us ranked anymore.

your wish will definitely be granted

 

[bac2therac]

the past two games i cannot believe the amount of shots taken where virtually the entire team is well behind the shot and in no position to rebound or near the basket. Its something very noticable that I never noticed last year which lead me to believe there has been some sort of strategical change with the coaching

 

[Shell21]

Michigan State gave the defensive blueprint against us, and OSU threw a lot of the same at us.

- Extend the defense well out past the three point line
- Harass the guards at the top and don't let them get into a rhythm or set up a weave
- Stay home on the guards when Young/Mathis penetrate to stop them from kicking out, and let them try to carry the team without Harper, Baker, or Johnson
- Foul us if we get the ball in the post, or if Mathis penetrates

Our offense stagnates, the passing stops, and people try to play hero ball. Similar happened in the first game against OSU when Johnson went out and we became one dimensional.

This is why the week off is good. We need to self scout and understand how other teams are defending us and put in a lot of new wrinkles for the next few games .

defensively is another issue and starts with effort and focus

 

[Scarlet Blind_rivals]

Every good team designs their offense through positions on the court. For 5 years, a lead guard and 5 spot are the most important positions in a Steve Pikiell offense, pick n rolls, screens, etc. to free up guards/wings and dish to the 5. Pike has expanded to have a lead forward as the third most important position, like Caleb, Paul and now Jaden.

2016-17 15-18 Corey, Nigel/CJ Gettys(33/33), Sa, Doorson
Think of all the offense run through Corey,Nigel or CJ, big drop CJ to other 2
2017-18 15-19 Corey, Geo/Doucoure(29/34),Doorson(4/34),Sa
All three 5s did something well, but all had limitations
2018-19 14-17 Geo, Caleb/Doorson(31/31), Myles
Doorson improved and Myles had growing pains but potential
2019-20 20-11 Geo(19/31), JY, McConnell(12/31), Paul/Myles(25/31,Carter(6/31)
Myles was solid and Carter developed to pretty solid best we've had the 5 spot
2020-21 7-4 JY(11/11), Paul/Cliff(6/11),Myles(5/11)

For the first time in 5 years, we have 2 guys that have similar skill sets, that cover the 5 spot for 40 minutes, and no drop off, does everything Pike asks of a 5 in his offense without losing any skill set or plays in the playbook. That's why losing Cliff is so important, we have many guys that can run the point between Geo, Caleb, JY, Paul and Jaden soon but you are using up a lot of your point guards in other positions because of the lack of size and depth of other positions, Palmquist and Mag haven't had enough time to develop and your 3rd string center and backup 4 is filling the 5 spot from injury. Myles can't play 40, and Reiber, Doucoure or Nathan can come close to what Cliff does at the 5 for our offense. You have Reiber and Doucoure practicing all the plays in his offensive playbook, and eliminating plays they can't run when they are on the floor because they aren't capable of running them yet, making the offense ineffective, why we are struggling to find an identity and a lot more predictable.

 

[mikeyoc]

the past two games i cannot believe the amount of shots taken where virtually the entire team is well behind the shot and in no position to rebound or near the basket. Its something very noticable that I never noticed last year which lead me to believe there has been some sort of strategical change with the coaching

Hear what you're saying bac, but those were shots that were falling when we were shooting well early on. We're in a shooing slump right
now, which is one reason we're being out-rebounded to the extent
that we are--we're missing open looks that we were knocking down
consistently 2 weeks ago. Here's hoping we can find the range again
soon.

 

[goru7]

THIS

If we had a rebounding presence, we could make teams pay when Young and Mathis drive but we don’t. Not to mention that Johnson is no longer a viable post option. Also not to mention that geo can’t drive.

What do you mean Myles is no longer a post option? Are you kidding me, we need to feed Myles in the post more than ever now , to get an easy basket, Tito let the wings crash the boards and to let Myles dish out of a double team to an open shooter. Our guards and wings have to get back to crashing the glass, offensively and defensively. Then we will have a rebounding presence.

 

[Rutgers25]

What do you mean Myles is no longer a post option? Are you kidding me, we need to feed Myles in the post more than ever now , to get an easy basket, Tito let the wings crash the boards and to let Myles dish out of a double team to an open shooter. Our guards and wings have to get back to crashing the glass, offensively and defensively. Then we will have a rebounding presence.

I mean that he’s been playing soft and can’t hit a free throw when he’s fouled.

 

[goru7]

I mean that he’s been playing soft and can’t hit a free throw when he’s fouled.

Who cares? Getting the other teams big guy fouled out will help. Lindell took Myles away from the basket and hit some shots. We didn’t try to make him defend Myles and maybe get in foul trouble and reverse the Ohio State game plan .Our guards have don e a terrible job of sending in a simple entry feed to the post. Garza gets 10 a game. Plus Myles is not selfish, if he cannot make a move or get off a shot he will find someone cutting or open

 

[Roy_Faulker]

Hear what you're saying bac, but those were shots that were falling when we were shooting well early on. We're in a shooing slump right
now, which is one reason we're being out-rebounded to the extent
that we are--we're missing open looks that we were knocking down
consistently 2 weeks ago. Here's hoping we can find the range again
soon.

I feel like all of our shots are low and our boys are shooting into hands instead of over them. How many blocks has Rutgers had against them in recent games Compared to the number of shots that our opponents make with a Rutgers the fender in the offense of players face? Long arching shots...

 

[SleepingGiantIsAwake]

The last few games I’ve been screaming for guys off the ball to actually cut when the penetration takes place. Drives me nuts. Basics. Guys just watching as the D collapses on the ball. We don’t need a kick out 3 every time, basics.

 

[Shelby65]

couldn't disagree more GoRU...I think Myles' inability to score around the basket against Big10 bigs either by muffing passes, missing layups or FTs is demoralizing for him and for the entire team. Too much wasted time on half court sets and too many wasted possessions.

The reason the Cliff injury matters so much isn't his offensive ability, it's that since he doesn't get as many looks when he's in and therefore doesn't directly cause so many empty trips.

 

[goru7]

couldn't disagree more GoRU...I think Myles' inability to score around the basket against Big10 bigs either by muffing passes, missing layups or FTs is demoralizing for him and for the entire team. Too much wasted time on half court sets and too many wasted possessions.

The reason the Cliff injury matters so much isn't his offensive ability, it's that since he doesn't get as many looks when he's in and therefore doesn't directly cause so many empty trips.

He does have the ability to score around the basket, he doesn’t get enough chances to score . Why don’t you look at box scores in the last 2 years and tell me when he has 10 or more shots on the rim? I am not going to look but I can tell you hardly ever. Our guards have done a piss poor job of feeding the block for years. Geo should have.mastered it by now and is still terrible at it. Tez actually feeds the block better than most everyone else on the team. Myles cannot make a 10 foot jumper but he can surely do a dropstep and short hook and a couple of times put it on the deck and get to the glass or a dunk. He is incredible unselfish and actually I wish he was more selfish , I agree with one thing that Pike’s offense making him come up on ball screens 90% of the time is not an effective way to keep him down low for offensive rebounding and because our guards on a pick and roll give him the ball 1 out of 15 times. Easy to teach and execute a pick and roll and we are still struggling with it with veteran guards. Frustrating as hell. Myles is not RU’s offensive problem but he can be the solution to better offense if we played inside out.

 

[RUChoppin]

He doesn’t have an inability to score around the basket, he doesn’t get enough chances to score . Why don’t you look at box scores in the last 2 years and tell me when he has 10 or more shots on the rim? I am not going to look but I can tell you hardly ever. Our guards have done a piss poor job of feeding the block for years. Geo should have.mastered it by now and is still terrible at it. Tez actually feeds the block better than most everyone else on the team. Myles cannot make a 10 foot jumper but he can surely do a dropstep and short hook and a couple of times put it on the deck and get to the glass or a dunk. He is incredible unselfish and actually I wish he was more selfish , I agree with one thing that Pike’s offense making him come up on ball screens 90% of the time is not an effective way to keep him down low for offensive rebounding and because our guards on a pick and roll give him the ball 1 out of 15 times. Easy to teach and execute a pick and roll and we are still struggling with it with veteran guards. Frustrating as hell. Myles is not RU’s offensive problem but he can be the solution to better offense if we played inside out.

Pick and roll is a solid option given the way teams have been defending us. A dump inside with an interior pass to a cutting guard/forward is another option. We need to develop more activity in the midrange, and not just perimeter play.

 

[goru7]

Pick and roll is a solid option given the way teams have been defending us. A dump inside with an interior pass to a cutting guard/forward is another option. We need to develop more activity in the midrange, and not just perimeter play.

Yeah. We have been stagnant on offense with little movement. Another reason playing inside out will force our players to move

 

[zebnatto]

Agree with comments about lack of offensive rebounding, both long rebounds and put backs. Last year on missed drives, we were good at getting put backs, getting control of the ball, or at least tipping out. Not only are missing CO for this but, as others have said, Shaq and Akwasi. Don’t have anyone to fill that role right now. Maybe Mag eventually.

 

[Shelby65]

Guys...his skill set is exactly the reason we don't feed the post much, and pick-and-rolls are also not suited to him because he's a very limited scorer who can't put the ball on the floor. He muffs the pass or misses the short shots and layups probably 75 % of the time, and misses free throws when he's fouled.

He is a great defender, so I'm being even in the assessment. He's just a major hindrance on O when they feed him and he can't convert.

 

[Colbert17!]

Michigan State gave the defensive blueprint against us, and OSU threw a lot of the same at us.

- Extend the defense well out past the three point line
- Harass the guards at the top and don't let them get into a rhythm or set up a weave
- Stay home on the guards when Young/Mathis penetrate to stop them from kicking out, and let them try to carry the team without Harper, Baker, or Johnson
- Foul us if we get the ball in the post, or if Mathis penetrates

Our offense stagnates, the passing stops, and people try to play hero ball. Similar happened in the first game against OSU when Johnson went out and we became one dimensional.

What is the purpose of this besides taking 3/4 seconds off the shot clock?

 

[goru7]

Guys...his skill set is exactly the reason we don't feed the post much, and pick-and-rolls are also not suited to him because he's a very limited scorer who can't put the ball on the floor. He muffs the pass or misses the short shots and layups probably 75 % of the time, and misses free throws when he's fouled.

He is a great defender, so I'm being even in the assessment. He's just a major hindrance on O when they feed him and

Guys...his skill set is exactly the reason we don't feed the post much, and pick-and-rolls are also not suited to him because he's a very limited scorer who can't put the ball on the floor. He muffs the pass or misses the short shots and layups probably 75 % of the time, and misses free throws when he's fouled.

He is a great defender, so I'm being even in the assessment. He's just a major hindrance on O when they feed him and he can't convert.

you are either clueless, have not watched Rutgers much , or just being stubborn. He misses layups 75% of the time? What planet you live on. Rutgers should do what Illinois does with Cofi, put him on the block and let him score . Underwood knows what he is doing with that strategy. He brings him up for ball screens occasionally but those guards make a conscious effort to feed the big guy on the block. . Something our guards do not do .

 

[RUChoppin]

What is the purpose of this besides taking 3/4 seconds off the shot clock?

We frequently run dribble penetration off the weave, as the player taking the pass is already moving and may have a soft screen from another guard or defender. It also keeps the defense of players moving laterally, which can allow for direction changes for penetration, open passing lanes inside, or stop and pop threes. It can also sometimes get a switch that is favorable.

one thing you definitely does, though, is keep the offense moving and passing the ball... Instead of one guy bringing up the ball, dribbling for 20 seconds, then trying to get a shot off all by himself.

 

[richthedentist]

you are either clueless, have not watched Rutgers much , or just being stubborn. He misses layups 75% of the time? What planet you live on. Rutgers should do what Illinois does with Cofi, put him on the block and let him score . Underwood knows what he is doing with that strategy. He brings him up for ball screens occasionally but those guards make a conscious effort to feed the big guy on the block. . Something our guards do not do .

Not to mention how many alley oop dunks has he missed this year!!!

 

[Yeah Baby]

I was going to start a thread titled “legs” but this seems like a good thread to post what I think.

I watched every game except the last two keep in mind. I blame myself for doing it to the team but in reality I saw this coming. It’s all about legs.

we had our best shooters and scorers all on the floor for 30 minutes a game when we were rolling. We knew we could not sustain that. We stole a win with GREAT effort against Purdue. But that game also took its toll on us. Harper is playing hurt. Young is playing hurt. Geo is playing hurt. Mathis gets mugged every game. Cliff has been out. Mag has been out. Caleb came back and gave us not his best minutes for a couple of games. These guys all need to get their legs back. I said this early and often about Young last year when many on this board trashed him. He was out of control because he didn’t have his Basketball legs. I played this game for many years and coached it too at very low levels haha. But when I was hurt I was half the player. When my legs were tired I couldn’t shoot. Even that first OSU loss with all the bad calls and JY getting hurt I thought we just couldn’t match their effort. They got too many 50/50 balls which was our signature last year.

I’m hoping this short break gets us healthy and we come back a much better team. Pike bit the bullet playing Caleb but he’s on his way back. Those minutes allowed the others to rest as well. We get our legs back and this team can still be very good. It’s better to peak late than early as we did last year and I hope we do again.

Let’s go!

 

[mildone_rivals]

Guys...his skill set is exactly the reason we don't feed the post much, and pick-and-rolls are also not suited to him because he's a very limited scorer who can't put the ball on the floor. He muffs the pass or misses the short shots and layups probably 75 % of the time, and misses free throws when he's fouled.

He is a great defender, so I'm being even in the assessment. He's just a major hindrance on O when they feed him and he can't convert.

In the last game, we had numerous pick and roll opportunities. Some with Myles, some with others. We only ever attempted to take advantage of one of the opportunities, Young to Myles, and Myles dunked the ball easily. It's the easiest play in basketball to master for both the 1 and 2. The 1 has to have the requisite skill to thread the ball through the defenders. But we have several players with that skill.

A pick and roll doesn't have to always result in a shot attempt by the 2. If it starts far enough from the basket, the 2 can seal the defender forcing the D to collapse into the lane, creating open looks on the weak side for mid-range jumpers and 3s. Good offense forces the D to choose between poor options (leave the lane open or leave the player I'm guarding).

We also don't have to have Myles setting the picks all the time, especially when it starts so far from the basket. Myles might be better off waiting weak-side for his defender to focus, and possibly collapse, on the evolving pick and roll, and then slide into position to receive the ball under the basket from a drive and dish. If what you say about him is true, it might be easier to get him adept at this than executing the pick and roll. Anybody can set a pick and roll, even other guards who CAN drive and dish.

 

[Shelby65]

I did not say he misses 75% of layups. I said he doesn't convert 75% of the low post passes he gets either due to misses, fumbled/kicked passes or missed FTs. In other words, his points per touch around the hoop is very low. Subtract out the alley-oops, which he does convert, and the scoring potential is even less. Most times he gets a low post entry pass with the purpose of scoring he doesn't. Overall, they are usually wasted possessions and very demoralizing to him and teammates. Seeing the disappointment and despair in his body language is obvious. He just doesn't have the ability and it's not helpful to anyone to keep trying.

 

[goru7]

In the last game, we had numerous pick and roll opportunities. Some with Myles, some with others. We only ever attempted to take advantage of one of the opportunities, Young to Myles, and Myles dunked the ball easily. It's the easiest play in basketball to master for both the 1 and 2. The 1 has to have the requisite skill to thread the ball through the defenders. But we have several players with that skill.

A pick and roll doesn't have to always result in a shot attempt by the 2. If it starts far enough from the basket, the 2 can seal the defender forcing the D to collapse into the lane, creating open looks on the weak side for mid-range jumpers and 3s. Good offense forces the D to choose between poor options (leave the lane open or leave the player I'm guarding).

We also don't have to have Myles setting the picks all the time, especially when it starts so far from the basket. Myles might be better off waiting weak-side for his defender to focus, and possibly collapse, on the evolving pick and roll, and then slide into position to receive the ball under the basket from a drive and dish. If what you say about his is true, it might be easier to get him adept at this than executing the pick and roll. Anybody can set a pick and roll, even other guards who CAN drive and dish.

We do not execute the pick and roll properly is the point. We hardly wait for the pick to be be set( although better this year) , and then we hardly ever give the ball to the roller. That is easily correctable but has not been and I am rather surprised neither Pike or Brandon Knight has fixed it. We should be executing it at a higher level.

 

[Shelby65]

go...again, Myles is often the roller on the high screens and they are too far away from the hoop for him to receive the pass and do anything. My god, do you want him to catch a pass and try to dribble to the paint ?!

he's out there to set screens and disrupt the defense. he is not out there to roll and be an offensive threat.

 

[goru7]

I did not say he misses 75% of layups. I said he doesn't convert 75% of the low post passes he gets either due to misses, fumbled/kicked passes or missed FTs. In other words, his points per touch around the hoop is very low. Subtract out the alley-oops, which he does convert, and the scoring potential is even less. Most times he gets a low post entry pass with the purpose of scoring he doesn't. Overall, they are usually wasted possessions and very demoralizing to him and teammates. Seeing the disappointment in his body language is obvious.

Get me some facts on your fake news , you saying Myles either fumbles a pass or does not convert 75 % of the time. Now I know you do not watch our team. You happen to say Myles fumbles the pass , when I know you are referring to the Iowa game , as yes it was an inopportune time , getting the pass from Tez, that likely would have been the game winner. But Myles hardly does that, he has great hands , rebounds and snatches balls and catches many passes from the guards he flushes. The problem I will try to explain again , in my humble opinion, is that we do not get him the ball on the block enough , and let him go to work. Bardo ever time he does our game marvels at what Myles is capable of , and speaks incredibly high of him.

 

[Shelby65]

Believe what you wish, based on what you see and what the coach has him do. Not what an announcer says.

Same reason he can't hit FTs. Dexterity deficit, uncoordination, whatever else you want to call it. Your argument assumes that Pike doesn't understand that Myles should be more of a weapon, that he should be the screener and roll. That's silly. The dude is almost 7 ft tall and can hardly score and you blame it on the coach. You think he's capable of catching a pass on the roll, dribbling a few times in traffic and scoring. Wow.

 

[mildone_rivals]

We do not execute the pick and roll properly is the point. We hardly wait for the pick to be be set( although better this year) , and then we hardly ever give the ball to the roller. That is easily correctable but has not been and I am rather surprised neither Pike or Brandon Knight has fixed it. We should be executing it at a higher level.

I suspect they've been trying to get it fixed and the players just aren't in sync with it yet. I saw players pick and roll a few times, looking for the pass. But the 1 only made that one pass last game.

I agree that, in general, our guards seem to not want to use picks much and instead cut back over the pick. But that's what the opposing coaches are seeing and why they're playing such a high defense on us now.

 

[Shelby65]

mild...going over is still using the pick. they are going to a spot they are more comfortable in, a spot aligned with their pet moves, creating space to pass to open guys, etc. they are indeed using the pick. what they are not doing is hitting Myles or Doucoure on the roll because those guys can't catch on the move, make a move, and score...and they certainly can't pick and pop.

 

[mildone_rivals]

mild...going over is still using the pick. they are going to a spot they are more comfortable in, a spot aligned with their pet moves, creating space to pass to open guys, etc. they are indeed using the pick. what they are not doing is hitting Myles or Doucoure on the roll because those guys can't catch on the move, make a move, and score...and they certainly can't pick and pop.

I get what you're saying, but in the past couple games, what our guards have been doing (with single and dual picks) isn't working.

We have to run a pick and roll play, or other north/south combinations, when D's play us so high. As I've said earlier, if our bigs can't make it work (and Myles made it work great last game), then we can do it with other players like Harper who definitely can make it work.

Right now, it's clear opposing coaches are punishing us forcing us to beat a high D *somehow* and aren't going to stop until we figure out something better than driving and putting up prayers. That takes away our 3 point shooting and leaves only 1 v N drive attempts that are getting stuffed or deflected away from the hoop.

I think we'll see some new stuff in on Friday night. I hope so, at least. Not a total overhaul, but a few new wrinkles aimed at punishing teams for playing such high D against us.

 

[Shelby65]

mild..I do agree with some of that...but it's not a 'tactics' issue, it's a talent and balance issue. Our half court offense is simply too predictable and easy to defend because we have no inside scoring threats. Other people seem to think that Pike doesn't realize how effective Myles can be with more emphasis on low post or pick and roll play and I think that's preposterous. It's not rocket science. Myles has been in the team for years. If Myles has any low post or skills Pike would exploit that. smh.

we just don't have anyone to exploit the 'high d' as you put it. instead, the guards often need to force to rush, outside, low percentage shots.

Since we are guard-heavy, transition ball is our sweet spot. Halfcourt, not with this roster. No Big10 caliber bigs.