OT: Hiroshima 75 Years Ago

[Colbert17!]

May the 100,000 plus who died that day rest in peace. Their deaths saved the lives of millions of American and Japanese.
If your father or grandfather served in the Pacific during the war you might not be here today without the bomb.The U.S. ordered 1.5 million Purple Hearts in anticipation of the invasion of the Japanese home islands. These were stockpiled, refurbished and most of these medals awarded since WW II were from this lot.

Interesting note that after the bombing Japanese civilians left Hiroshima to take refuge elsewhere in Japan. About 200 of these went to....Nagasaki. The Japanese government estimates that about 9 people survived both bombings.

 

[superfan01]

No doubt a controversial part of history that will only get more controversial as the years past. But it was necessary. The Japanese were not surrendering . Yes the civilian casualties were catastrophic but likely many times more civilians would have died if we fully invaded the mainland. remember the Japanese took until the second bomb to actually surrender

 

[mdk02]

No doubt a controversial part of history that will only get more controversial as the years past. But it was necessary. The Japanese were not surrendering . Yes the civilian casualties were catostroohoc but likely many times more civilians would have died if we fully invaded the mainland. remember the Japanese took until the second bomb to actually surrender

It will get more controversial as more people don't know or remember the history and more and more people don't have family alive during their lifetimes who would have been involved in the invasion of Japan. But the woke don't care that Japanese civilian casualties would have been orders of magnitude higher if there had been an invasion (look at Guam, Saipan and Okinawa) as well as hundreds of thousands of American dead (look at Iwo Jima and Okinawa) and even more casualties.

 

[DJ Spanky]

The decision to drop the bombs was the right one for a number of reasons.

 

[zappaa]

There’s no question it saved millions of lives

 

[MadRU]

My father was training for Operation Downfall, he would have been in the first Human wave to land on mainland Japan. Always said Harry Truman saved his life.

 

[DJ Spanky]

My father was training for Operation Downfall, he would have been in the first Human wave to land on mainland Japan. Always said Harry Truman saved his life.

My father would have been deployed as a navigator on a B-29 within a month of the bomb being dropped.

 

[Yeah Baby]

Respect to all those who gave their lives or risked their lives so we can live the cushy lives we have today. Thank you all.

 

[RU05]

No doubt a controversial part of history that will only get more controversial as the years past. But it was necessary. The Japanese were not surrendering . Yes the civilian casualties were catostroohoc but likely many times more civilians would have died if we fully invaded the mainland. remember the Japanese took until the second bomb to actually surrender

It will get more controversial as more people don't know or remember the history and more and more people don't have family alive during their lifetimes who would have been involved in the invasion of Japan. But the woke don't care that Japanese civilian casualties would have been orders of magnitude higher if there had been an invasion (look at Guam, Saipan and Okinawa) as well as hundreds of thousands of American dead (look at Iwo Jima and Okinawa) and even more casualties.

I don't know how the rest of the world views it, especially Japan, but I really don't feel like there is much controversy around it in this country.

 

[RU05]

May the 100,000 plus who died that day rest in peace. Their deaths saved the lives of millions of American and Japanese.
If your father or grandfather served in the Pacific during the war you might not be here today without the bomb.The U.S. ordered 1.5 million Purple Hearts in anticipation of the invasion of the Japanese home islands. These were stockpiled, refurbished and most of these medals awarded since WW II were from this lot.

Interesting note that after the bombing Japanese civilians left Hiroshima to take refuge elsewhere in Japan. About 200 of these went to....Nagasaki. The Japanese government estimates that about 9 people survived both bombings.

That is a crazy sidenote I had never heard before.

 

[Doctor Worm]

There’s no question it saved millions of lives

Actually, there is.

The A-bomb was a very efficient killer. But it was no more lethal than the massive firebombing of 68 cities that Japan had previously endured. 120K dead in Tokyo, more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Yet Japan soldiered on. Is it reasonable to believe that they capitulated just because the mode of destruction had changed?

If we believe that Japan was ready to sacrifice a million-plus citizens to defend the homeland, it doesn't seem likely that the A-bomb would break their spirit. Especially since conventional bombing didn't. So then, why did they surrender?

Linked article suggests that it wasn't the A-bomb that ended the war - it was Russia's concurrent declaration of war and invasion of Japan's occupied territory.

Here is the theory. By 1945 (actually, well before then) Japan knew that they couldn't "win" the war. All they could do was inflict enough American casualties so that we would say F-it, negotiate a peace agreement favorable to Japan, and go home.
But once Stalin was involved it was game over. No amount of Russian deaths would deter him. Far better for Japan to surrender to the US while they still could. Which is what they did.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/

 

[beaced_rivals]

My father would have been deployed as a navigator on a B-29 within a month of the bomb being dropped.

Your Dad must of gone through the same AVIATION CADET training programs that I did.I was just a couple of steps away from finishing MY Bombadier training w hen they dropped the eggs.

 

[e5fdny]

My father would have been deployed as a navigator on a B-29 within a month of the bomb being dropped.

My Wife’s grandmother’s boyfriend was a navigator on a B-29 too.

Shot down three times and told us, “If it wasn’t for the Marines on Iwo Jima I’d be dead.” The airstrip there made it so they could have an emergency landing since they couldn’t make it back to Tinian.

For the rest of his life whenever he met a Marine, WWII or not, that guy ate and drank for free.

 

[koleszar]

My Grandfather a Marine fought in the Pacific, he lost a lot of friends over there. But he never would talk about it, you'd just get bits and pieces and he'd quickly catch himself and say, "it doesn't matter now". He did not like Japanese people till the day he died. Some woke people will call him a bigot, I call him just being a human being. Like others have said if those bombs don't drop I'm not sure I'm here today.

 

[mdk02]

Actually, there is.

The A-bomb was a very efficient killer. But it was no more lethal than the massive firebombing of 68 cities that Japan had previously endured. 120K dead in Tokyo, more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Yet Japan soldiered on. Is it reasonable to believe that they capitulated just because the mode of destruction had changed?

If we believe that Japan was ready to sacrifice a million-plus citizens to defend the homeland, it doesn't seem likely that the A-bomb would break their spirit. Especially since conventional bombing didn't. So then, why did they surrender?

Linked article suggests that it wasn't the A-bomb that ended the war - it was Russia's concurrent declaration of war and invasion of Japan's occupied territory.

Here is the theory. By 1945 (actually, well before then) Japan knew that they couldn't "win" the war. All they could do was inflict enough American casualties so that we would say F-it, negotiate a peace agreement favorable to Japan, and go home.
But once Stalin was involved it was game over. No amount of Russian deaths would deter him. Far better for Japan to surrender to the US while they still could. Which is what they did.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/

To deny either had an impact is a mistake. The fact is that many in Japan wanted to continue the war. There was an attempt to capture the Emperor by military officers the night before the surrender was announced. And to say that a single airplane dropping a single bomb and destroying a city had no impact is wrong. And while Russia was also a factor, they would have been unable to invade the home islands for a longer period of time than for the US.

 

[phs73rc77gsm83]

My father would have been deployed as a navigator on a B-29 within a month of the bomb being dropped.

My dad was a navigator on a B29 and flew a couple dozen bombing missions out of Tinian. On a shelf of my bookcase are a couple of dollar bills with the missions and dates written down, along with his Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal, sunglasses, and other items.

 

[koleszar]

Actually, there is.

The A-bomb was a very efficient killer. But it was no more lethal than the massive firebombing of 68 cities that Japan had previously endured. 120K dead in Tokyo, more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Yet Japan soldiered on. Is it reasonable to believe that they capitulated just because the mode of destruction had changed?

If we believe that Japan was ready to sacrifice a million-plus citizens to defend the homeland, it doesn't seem likely that the A-bomb would break their spirit. Especially since conventional bombing didn't. So then, why did they surrender?

Linked article suggests that it wasn't the A-bomb that ended the war - it was Russia's concurrent declaration of war and invasion of Japan's occupied territory.

Here is the theory. By 1945 (actually, well before then) Japan knew that they couldn't "win" the war. All they could do was inflict enough American casualties so that we would say F-it, negotiate a peace agreement favorable to Japan, and go home.
But once Stalin was involved it was game over. No amount of Russian deaths would deter him. Far better for Japan to surrender to the US while they still could. Which is what they did.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/

Not buying it. The Japanese had no idea we ran out of bombs and thought we could just obliterate them from the sky. Hell Hideki Tojo and his Generals wanted to keep fighting even after the second bomb hit and Russia agreed to enter the Pacific campaign. It was Emperor Hirohito who stepped in and ordered his Generals to unconditionally surrender as he didn't want to see his people suffer any longer.

 

[RU from Jersey_rivals]

Although the Japanese now seem to be a peaceful society, back during WWII they were ruthless and committed some of the worst atrocities this world has seen. So they had to be stopped no matter what. Frankly dropping the two bombs then may have saved the world from a nuclear holocaust during the cold war.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Your Dad must of gone through the same AVIATION CADET training programs that I did.I was just a couple of steps away from finishing MY Bombadier training w hen they dropped the eggs.

Most likely. He used to tell me stories about navigating by the stars as they flew over Nevada. I still have his Army Air Force uniform.

 

[e5fdny]

My dad was a navigator on a B29 and flew a couple dozen bombing missions out of Tinian. On a shelf of my bookcase are a couple of dollar bills with the missions and dates written down, along with his Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal, sunglasses, and other items.

I wonder if they knew each other...

My Wife’s grandmother’s boyfriend was a navigator on a B-29 too.

Shot down three times and told us, “If it wasn’t for the Marines on Iwo Jima I’d be dead.” The airstrip there made it so they could have an emergency landing since they couldn’t make it back to Tinian.

For the rest of his life whenever he met a Marine, WWII or not, that guy ate and drank for free.

 

[mdk02]

Actually, there is.

The A-bomb was a very efficient killer. But it was no more lethal than the massive firebombing of 68 cities that Japan had previously endured. 120K dead in Tokyo, more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Yet Japan soldiered on. Is it reasonable to believe that they capitulated just because the mode of destruction had changed?

If we believe that Japan was ready to sacrifice a million-plus citizens to defend the homeland, it doesn't seem likely that the A-bomb would break their spirit. Especially since conventional bombing didn't. So then, why did they surrender?

Linked article suggests that it wasn't the A-bomb that ended the war - it was Russia's concurrent declaration of war and invasion of Japan's occupied territory.

Here is the theory. By 1945 (actually, well before then) Japan knew that they couldn't "win" the war. All they could do was inflict enough American casualties so that we would say F-it, negotiate a peace agreement favorable to Japan, and go home.
But once Stalin was involved it was game over. No amount of Russian deaths would deter him. Far better for Japan to surrender to the US while they still could. Which is what they did.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/

Op ed from today's wsj (pay site) expresses a different view

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-at...ng-japanese-11596663957?mod=opinion_lend_pos9

 

[RUboston]

My Dad fought in the Pacific in WWII when he had turned just 19 years old. His unit was preparing for the invasion of Japan, which thankfully never occurred. He occupied Tokyo after the war.

Had the bombs not been dropped and we invaded Japan, the battle would have been long and the fatalities massive. Perhaps my five siblings and I would never have been, plus 11 grandchildren and two great grandchildren. Makes you wonder.

 

[CommonSenseA]

Although the Japanese now seem to be a peaceful society, back during WWII they were ruthless and committed some of the worst atrocities this world has seen. So they had to be stopped no matter what. Frankly dropping the two bombs then may have saved the world from a nuclear holocaust during the cold war.

This is true -- and a factor in the bombing decision. In allegiance to the Emperor, the Japs tortured, enslaved and murdered millions of innocent people.

 

[chrisru99]

Although the Japanese now seem to be a peaceful society, back during WWII they were ruthless and committed some of the worst atrocities this world has seen. So they had to be stopped no matter what. Frankly dropping the two bombs then may have saved the world from a nuclear holocaust during the cold war.

The United States of America have also committed some of the worst atrocities this world has seen too. One great example is the history between the United States and Iran. Read up on that and you will see and read up on our foreign policy in Central America that initiated what Guatemala and El Salvador is today. We all love this country and the 4 years in the USMC opened huge doors for me but we are no angels.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Half to most of the European theatre army personnel at the end of the war would have been sent over for the invasion of Japan. So it is not just Pacific theatre military that were in jeopardy. So if you had an ancestor who was with the US Army in Germany at the end of the war, your existence was in jeopardy as well.

 

[anvilofstars]

Just as an interesting comparison, if you saw videos of the Beirut explosion is thought to be 2.75 Kilotons. These bombs were somewhere between 12-15 Kilotons. As a comparison, The largest bomb tested is 50,000 Kilotons.

Kind of a sidebar, but interesting to get a visual of the destruction and what something like that today might look like.

 

[RUich]

In my experience, I have found that vets from the Pacific held much more hatred towards the Japs than those who served in the European theater. There's a very solid reason for this when you look at the way prisioners were treated by the Japanese.
There are many who feel that the second bomb was not necessary. Knowing what we know now about what was going on in Japan, one would have to differ.
If you look hard enough, you can find the film of tiny children being trained with sharpened sticks who were going to be sent against us as they came ashore. I can only imagine how any man would feel about shooting 5 year olds.
One final note. Both Germany and Japan were also working on nukes. Is there anyone out there who can honestly say that they would not have used them against us?

 

[Kbee3]

Actually, there is.

The A-bomb was a very efficient killer. But it was no more lethal than the massive firebombing of 68 cities that Japan had previously endured. 120K dead in Tokyo, more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Yet Japan soldiered on. Is it reasonable to believe that they capitulated just because the mode of destruction had changed?

If we believe that Japan was ready to sacrifice a million-plus citizens to defend the homeland, it doesn't seem likely that the A-bomb would break their spirit. Especially since conventional bombing didn't. So then, why did they surrender?

Linked article suggests that it wasn't the A-bomb that ended the war - it was Russia's concurrent declaration of war and invasion of Japan's occupied territory.

Here is the theory. By 1945 (actually, well before then) Japan knew that they couldn't "win" the war. All they could do was inflict enough American casualties so that we would say F-it, negotiate a peace agreement favorable to Japan, and go home.
But once Stalin was involved it was game over. No amount of Russian deaths would deter him. Far better for Japan to surrender to the US while they still could. Which is what they did.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/

Excellent post.
Some of the posters here need to check out the stories of the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo.

 

[chrisru99]

Excellent post.
Some of the posters here need to check out the stories of the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo.

Dropped bombs on civilians as well.

 

[e5fdny]

Excellent post.
Some of the posters here need to check out the stories of the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo.

Pretty sure everyone in this thread knows about those. And not sure why it’s relevant as that was the weapon available at that particular time.

If the atom bombs were available earlier they probably would have been used. By either side.

 

[patk89]

My father, RU Class of 1940, would likely have died in an invasion of the mainland. No doubt about this decision in our household. One of his brothers piloted a B-24 that was knocked down over Germany. Ask yourself this, if Japan or Germany had developed the A-bomb first, would they have hesitated a second about dropping it on a population center? Russia, give me a break.

 

[dconifer0]

It will get more controversial as more people don't know or remember the history and more and more people don't have family alive during their lifetimes who would have been involved in the invasion of Japan. But the woke don't care that Japanese civilian casualties would have been orders of magnitude higher if there had been an invasion (look at Guam, Saipan and Okinawa) as well as hundreds of thousands of American dead (look at Iwo Jima and Okinawa) and even more casualties.

Yup. And more broadly speaking, it's never a good idea (in my opinion) to judge any aspect of history/historic figure in any context except the one in which the event occurred or the person lived.

 

[mdk02]

Yup. And more broadly speaking, it's never a good idea (in my opinion) to judge any aspect of history/historic figure in any context except the one in which the event occurred or the person lived.

You mean they couldn't use GPS to guide the bombs they dropped? I'm shocked.

 

[Yeah Baby]

There’s no question it saved millions of lives

Agreed 1000%. Look what they did to all the innocents in the Phillipines. I don’t have the numbers handy but was staggered watching a WWII documentary on history channel how many were killed in the last days as they were retreating. Brutal.

 

[dconifer0]

The United States of America have also committed some of the worst atrocities this world has seen too. One great example is the history between the United States and Iran. Read up on that and you will see and read up on our foreign policy in Central America that initiated what Guatemala and El Salvador is today. We all love this country and the 4 years in the USMC opened huge doors for me but we are no angels.

Overthrowing elected governments of foreign countries is shameful, especially when the reasons behind these covert actions you have referred to are considered, but not on the human scale of brutality that is being discussed here (in my opinion)...

 

[Knightmoves]

My dad was a navigator on a B29 and flew a couple dozen bombing missions out of Tinian. On a shelf of my bookcase are a couple of dollar bills with the missions and dates written down, along with his Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal, sunglasses, and other items.

My neighbor, who just passed away last year, joined the Marines from upstate NY at 17 years old and served in the Central Pacific with the 4th Marine Division. Fought the battles of Saipan, Tinian, Marshall Islands and the entire engagement at Iwo Jima. He was one of only two soldiers (out of the original 220 in his company) who served in all of those battles. The rest were either wounded or killed.

He never talked about the battles but told me that he made a promise to God that if he made it thru the war alive he would always serve him on this earth. May he RIP.

 

[mdk02]

Overthrowing elected governments of foreign countries is shameful, especially when the reasons behind these covert actions are considered, but not on the human scale of brutality that is being discussed here (in my opinion)...

Remember, Hitler was elected.

 

[Doctor Worm]

Excellent post.
Some of the posters here need to check out the stories of the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo.

"The Dresden atrocity, tremendously expensive and meticulously planned, was so meaningless, finally, that only one person on the entire planet got any benefit from it. I am that person. I wrote this book (Slaughterhouse Five), which earned a lot of money for me and made my reputation, such as it is. One way or another, I got two or three dollars for every person killed. Some business I'm in." - Kurt Vonnegut

Whether the Dresden firebombing was militarily justified remains a topic of debate.

 

[mdk02]

"The Dresden atrocity, tremendously expensive and meticulously planned, was so meaningless, finally, that only one person on the entire planet got any benefit from it. I am that person. I wrote this book (Slaughterhouse Five), which earned a lot of money for me and made my reputation, such as it is. One way or another, I got two or three dollars for every person killed. Some business I'm in." - Kurt Vonnegut

Whether the Dresden firebombing was militarily justified remains a topic of debate.

It was a topic of debate in 1945. It wasn't, however, meticulously planned more than any other combined day and night raid coordinated between the Army Air Force and the RAF, of which there were many.

 

[phs73rc77gsm83]

I wonder if they knew each other...

Could be! He was in the 504th. I have pictures of him and his ear B29, bombing sites/targets, etc. I know he kept in touch with his crew and other vets.