A
OT: Caution on take out food
- Thread starter Sweet Pea's Corner
- Start date
A vaccine or better treatments and certainly a better understanding of the virus and its behavior...
There is not a quick solution. And it is painful. And we'll know more in a month than we do now...
I wish there were a better answer. And maybe soon there will be...
You are exactly right. I don’t know if kyk rents to people but why shouldn’t he want to get paid to feed his family, send his kids to college, retire on time? The alternate to kyk receiving rent is living on the street. People who have consistent paychecks and can do it from home have a complete arrogance to people who actually need to leave the house to provide for their families. It is truly disgusting.
By that logic, everything should be closed then. Keeping everything closed wont get rid of the virus. You need a vaccine or a cure. Who says we’re even going to get rid of it. We’re probably not
The only way to get through this virus is to isolate the sick and old then go right through it.... unfortunately people will die. This is the reality of life and sounds terrible but it is true. All the experts know this but do not want to say this. The longer the economy stops the more people will die of suicide, cancer and other diseases along with other issues like domestic violence, molestation....
this is the only time in history we have acted this way towards any threat that causes people to die...
My father passed away two years ago battling cancer. He had a depleted immune system because of his treatments and got a lung infection and then eventually went into cardiac arrest and died. It took 5 days. THIS IS THE REALITY EVERY CANCER PATIENT LIVES IN. They are at severe risk of infection that could kill them within days at any time. Not once has anyone ever thought about stopping the entire us economy or demand people not leave their homes to protect cancer patients or other immune deficient people. You know what they do? They say stay home, stay isolated, keep people out....
this is the only time in history we have acted this way towards any threat that causes people to die...
My father passed away two years ago battling cancer. He had a depleted immune system because of his treatments and got a lung infection and then eventually went into cardiac arrest and died. It took 5 days. THIS IS THE REALITY EVERY CANCER PATIENT LIVES IN. They are at severe risk of infection that could kill them within days at any time. Not once has anyone ever thought about stopping the entire us economy or demand people not leave their homes to protect cancer patients or other immune deficient people. You know what they do? They say stay home, stay isolated, keep people out....
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Remember folks : COVID-19 is a contagious disease , so maybe some diseases don't make good examples of why you feel stay at home orders are a waste.
Just like 50,000 deaths are a drop in the bucket to some, not everyone, and they feel people dying is better than being forced to stay at home.
That opinion might be based on how some value the life of people that might not be a member of their inner circle , compared to being inconvenienced because the State government is valuing everyone's life in setting the rules no matter who is being denied the right of doing what they want without regard to how it might effect others.
Just like 50,000 deaths are a drop in the bucket to some, not everyone, and they feel people dying is better than being forced to stay at home.
That opinion might be based on how some value the life of people that might not be a member of their inner circle , compared to being inconvenienced because the State government is valuing everyone's life in setting the rules no matter who is being denied the right of doing what they want without regard to how it might effect others.
In theory if everything was locked down and people stayed in their home this thing would be gone in a few weeks.
Very unfortunate that you have to be spreading fear when many restaurants I get takeout from take this all very seriously.
Cook your own food and shut the hell up.
In theory if everyone wears a mask outside its prevents the spread. If I'm wearing a mask any public place I go, I'm part of the solution and not the problem. Explain to me how a person wearing a mask and being mindful of handwashing and facetouching spreads it.
A vaccine and better treatments aren't coming for 6 months minimum. Your solution equals complete poverty for hundreds of millions. Congrats. Stay in your house while I live my life cautiously but in full health.
Here's what its like listening to some of you.
"Dear food industry workers, barbers, bartenders, etc etc etc. Sacrifice your livelihood for 6+ months so that I may live another ten years".
How about this for an outrageous take. Dear elderly above 70 who are retired and scared. Here is the reality..you have lived a long full life. I'm not sacrificing my life for you and shuttering myself in my house until there is a vaccine. I will certainly wear a mask, properly social distance as best as possible, not touch my face and I won't get anyone else sick by doing all of those things, but I'm not sacrificing my livelihood for you when you have lived a full life. That is all you have the right to ask of me..do everything possible to not get anyone else sick. I am not bankrupting my business. I am not losing my house. I am not going to make it so that I wait on a breadline for my family. Stay in your house with the mortgage paid off forever if you want. I will not. That is not a possibility for me and millions of others.
Sit on your retirement money and pretend that everyone else can survive for months on end if you want. But you have some nerve asking others to basically die for you. Because for many, poverty is basically the same outcome as dying. Lose your house. Lose your ability to put food on the table. What are you left with? A pulse? That is not an acceptable outcome.
I am not selfish if by taking the measures I have documented, I do not get another person sick. When two people come in contact with one another and both wear a mask and neither touches their face and then a surface, this is not spread. I am practical. You are selfish.
That's not how society works though... because you know food and you know people HAVE to leave the house for millions of reasons. Do you even see what you are typing?
Wouldn't prevent it. Would help a lot. I think that's part of the solution, as you say. There's no solution that doesn't f*** a large proportion of the population. But what you're saying about masks goes well with what Loyal is saying even if it's not obvious: it's only in the past month that we've realized that masks are very helpful in places like grocery stores, partially because we've learned more about this completely new virus, which is what Loyal is saying. A month before that, you had people on top of each other like sardines at Costco, thinking they were safe because they washed their hands.
Staying indoors for 3 weeks would probably do it but I don't think that's feasible. Then again, we're already doing things that were considered completely outlandish 2 months ago even as China was doing these things and Italy was starting to.
I think we'll have to get creative but this is not going to go well either way. The economy is not going back to normal during this period. I understand that an incremental return to normalcy is likely worth the price of each increment.
Why would they be upset if I don't get a single person sick with the controls I mentioned? Explain to me how by wearing a mask in public and washing and distancing, I will get anyone sick. My grandfather is the ripe age of 93 and thinks the world should be opened back up because people's businesses are failing. He was a healthcare provider. And he's not selfish unlike others on here.
He got pizza takeout the other day. Everything was done with masks and gloves. He lost his wife a while back and he's courageous enough to still live his life when so many others are hiding in their house. Maybe it's being a war vet. Regardless, he understands the risks and he'd rather have pizza today than live another year and do nothing that entire time while living in a bubble. And I'm mature enough to let the man make his own decisions knowing the risks.
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Again the lockdown/quarantine was never meant to stop people from dying. It was meant to stop the overcrowding of hospitals. The same amount of people die whether you lockdown or not. The only difference is the people die slower but over a longer period of time during a lockdown compared to dying all upfront without a lockdown. Mission accomplished. Now let’s get back to work.
what I find very interesting is the information coming out of California. they are doing autopsy’s on people who passed away in early February and the virus was present on February 6th. Meaning the virus was in the USA at a minimum 22 days prior to what we originally thought. If this is true we peaked earlier than we thought. It also means that people the hospitals survived the peak and became overwhelmed when cuomo told people they would die in the streets if we didn’t have 26k additional ventilators or when de Blasio told people to go to hospitals if they feel sick...
what I find very interesting is the information coming out of California. they are doing autopsy’s on people who passed away in early February and the virus was present on February 6th. Meaning the virus was in the USA at a minimum 22 days prior to what we originally thought. If this is true we peaked earlier than we thought. It also means that people the hospitals survived the peak and became overwhelmed when cuomo told people they would die in the streets if we didn’t have 26k additional ventilators or when de Blasio told people to go to hospitals if they feel sick...
well said. It is pretty simple. I laugh because if you say this peolle accuse you of not caring about people or wanting people to die... in reality, you can go to work without putting others at risk.
Wash your hands, wear a mask when you are within 6 feet(which I don’t think matters but I still do it), don’t touch your face, stay away from at risk people....
I assume in this scenario the expectation is no matter how it goes healthcare workers are coming to work every day? Are you or any of the advocates of this philosophy planning to house healthcare workers so they can isolate from their families? Are you planning to help in overflow hospitals? You plan to lend a hand someway, right?
We just had 50k COVID-19 deaths in a month. One month. There is a not a health system between Boston and DC that did not find itself in a real tight predicament. Do you believe life can return to any sort of normalcy if the healthcare infrastructure can’t keep up with COVID cases?
I want people to live. I just want to do my part to not get another person sick while ALSO living my life and not sacrificing my family's well being. It's ridiculous to ask that of others. Some people have no shame.
Yes in one month we've had that many deaths..mostly because the deaths were a direct result of what people were doing before they started masking and distancing seriously. Everyone is doing it now. Things are going to improve as long as we continue to do that and require that in our stores and businesses. Do you expect more deaths? Explain to me why? Then explain to me how I get someone else sick by masking and following the safe practices I have detailed.
Hackensack hospital just went from 470 cases to around 330. The overflow is being taken care of by the facial coverings and distancing. I don't have to house anyone. Things are improving. They have even stopped updating staff daily because they are doing so well. I know plenty of young nurses who have had it and are now returning to work with new immunity. They aren't dying. They're out of commission for two weeks and back to it because they have a spine. People are still going to the stores to shop. They aren't shuttered in their homes. But now, everyone in the store wears a mask or facial covering.
If you want to cry about the sudden increase in deaths rather than living our lives cautiously, feel free to stay in your home. I will be perfectly fine living life with precautions, as will anyone I come in contact with.
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This debate again. To make it short as possible - taking the proper precautions (correctly) is perfectly fine and gold. But you know full well that most people out there don't do that. Those idiots get other people sick and what's worse, they have no idea because they think they were "taking precautions".
And if you think people that are just absolutely compelled to not stay home (and I say stay at home loosely. Not actually confined to their homes) do you think they would be the most risk averse, taking proper precautions. You tell me.
And if you think people that are just absolutely compelled to not stay home (and I say stay at home loosely. Not actually confined to their homes) do you think they would be the most risk averse, taking proper precautions. You tell me.
If the law is that masks or facial coverings must be worn indoors for the time being, that's the law and there is no getting around that, regardless of how smart or dumb someone is. And if people can't handle that "freedom" being limited right now, tough ****. Prepare to get a ticket.
It's already required in supermarkets. I don't see one person violating that. Do you? At the stores near me, they are told by security when it not worn correctly, aka their nose isn't covered. And if you see someone violating that requirement and you don't speak up, you have nobody to blame but yourself.
You'd be surprised. People wearing masks that cover just their mouths. People taking it off because they are uncomfortable. Security is great when people walk in but can you guarantee people wear them at all times? Even taking masks out of the equation you have people that cross contaminate things. They touch their phones then later touch everything else. Other people touch their phones. Their cars. Their doors. Shopping carts. Boxes. Bags. Whatever it is. Then those people get their family sick. Or the next person that isn't taking the proper precautions. It could be exponential which is limited now because of the orders in place. Again I comment people taking the proper precautions. The problem is the next x amount of people aren't.
Those people only get their family sick if they're dumb enough to not disinfect the moment they get to the car. Lysol wipes work quite well. I'm still able to order them online and find them around and I'm in Bergen county where this is at its worst. And again, in that case, if you get sick from not disinfecting yourself then you get what you deserve. I'm not gonna be the one to get someone else sick. I don't have one ounce of sympathy for people like that. People either take the proper precautions or risk dying. If they don't wear a mask or they don't wash or disinfect correctly or if they touch their face or if they do something frivolous like go to a wedding, then let them die if that's the end result (which it rarely is). But I, myself, am not going to shut my life down because I'm smart enough to take the proper precautions.
And if I see someone go through security and pull their mask down in the store, you can be damn sure I will lay into them or notify security as any proper human should if they see that. Someone who would let that slide is just as bad as the person in violation. Now is not the time to be nice. Security will immediately call the police on them if they do not comply, with the option of following them into the parking lot and writing down their license plate.
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As someone turning 70 next month, I think this is an interesting argument. With tens of millions of people out of work or soon to be, the trade-offs between having the economy tank to depression levels, and having tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of people die is terrible to contemplate, but it is where we are.
What we need right now is leadership, and it just could not be more lacking. We need someone to say, "Here are the tough choices we have to make as a society. We are going to do X, Y, and Z." But that would require leadership more concerned about the country than about being leaders. We see some of that at the state level, but precious little at the national level.
To me (and those who know my liberal leanings will find this surprising), I think some level of middle road between total lockdown and total open is required. It is a very tough choice as people will violate it, and it will cause problems for the medical system. I would lean more toward the lockdown side of the equation, but people are going to be hurting severely soon, and commerce needs to continue. The big issue would be to not overburden the health care system if the virus gets out of hand. So that means the big question is whether Americans can follow strict protocols under lesser restrictions.
Before we go to a more open system, we need dramatically expanded testing facilities and more supplies for protection. But once this can be sorted, I would advocate gradually lessening restrictions.
I'm working from home (which is in New Zealand) and am in a very good setting, but I'm willing to stay in isolation for a year or so if it helps the broader issue. I claim as much right to live as someone who is 45 or even 25, but I'm also willing to kick in by staying home for a while.
What we need right now is leadership, and it just could not be more lacking. We need someone to say, "Here are the tough choices we have to make as a society. We are going to do X, Y, and Z." But that would require leadership more concerned about the country than about being leaders. We see some of that at the state level, but precious little at the national level.
To me (and those who know my liberal leanings will find this surprising), I think some level of middle road between total lockdown and total open is required. It is a very tough choice as people will violate it, and it will cause problems for the medical system. I would lean more toward the lockdown side of the equation, but people are going to be hurting severely soon, and commerce needs to continue. The big issue would be to not overburden the health care system if the virus gets out of hand. So that means the big question is whether Americans can follow strict protocols under lesser restrictions.
Before we go to a more open system, we need dramatically expanded testing facilities and more supplies for protection. But once this can be sorted, I would advocate gradually lessening restrictions.
I'm working from home (which is in New Zealand) and am in a very good setting, but I'm willing to stay in isolation for a year or so if it helps the broader issue. I claim as much right to live as someone who is 45 or even 25, but I'm also willing to kick in by staying home for a while.
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It would be a great world if the talking points and simple solutions you (and others like KYK, Pancho etc) would so easily solve extremely complex problems. I posted some these stats in another thread - even if the entire country completely opened immediately, here's what you are looking at in this country.......
Obesity (40%) ~ 133 Million people
Asthma - 25 Million people
Diabetes - 34 Million people
45+ Population - 85 Million people
Prevalence of Cancer ~ 9 Million people
Heart/Cardiovascular Disease ~ 121 Million people
Quite honestly, even if all the young, healthy people without any risk factors and who have no kids in school (or not in a risk category) run right back to normal - everyone in the above categories will likely not, meaning that the economy/ unemployment will still be a mess. This doesn't even take into account the current lack of adequate PPE / Disinfectent supplies available for the general public that you point to in your post.
The POTUS/Federal COVID response team issued reasonable guidelines several weeks back for opening things back up. Why do people not want to follow them just weeks later. Impatience in a pandemic can be deadly.
People don't have scarfs and t-shirts? They don't have to be n95 masks to block droplet spread. I think you've missed the point completely. Thousands are making masks at home..you should look it up sometime. It's a ten minute process max.
Go look online if you don't have disinfectant wipes and order some. If you are out and you haven't ordered a large supply to restock, you're simply negligent. Doesn't have to be Lysol. Lots of companies out there. Or just don't touch your damn face and wash the way you're supposed to. Again, anyone getting sick because they can't stop touching their face or can't learn to disinfect at the earliest possible time they can, I have no sympathy for those people. They have nobody to blame but themselves.
What I am saying will work. And I'm not staying in my house to be extra careful. You can do that. Meanwhile, I won't get one single other person sick.
LOL. You do realize that the masks and gloves do not protect you, right? They are meant to try and limit the amount of your coughing and spreading the virus to others. An N95 mask will protect you if worn properly. Next time do some research prior to thinking that you're all good throwing on a bandana over your mouth and heading out to the gym.
PS - and yes, we have homemade masks in order to adhear to guidelines for going out for necessary supplies.
You realize that home mask protects from spreading droplets, it just doesn't protect from getting the virus in a way an n95 does, right? Hence why everyone needs to wear a facial covering in order for all of us to be protected? I wear n95s but everyone should be wearing something. By everyone using a mask, whether home made or not in a store, it protects everyone in the store.
I cannot take you seriously if you do not understand that. (Hint: I know far more about healthcare and have plenty more health related degrees than you so I don't need to research). You didn't show me anything other than your ignorance with your post. Good job.
It really isn't a tradeoff.........."opening" early will tank the economy to depression levels.
Being patient and suffering more short term is probably going to be the best solution.
The mistake of opening too early is multiple times more costly then opening too late.
[QUOTE="SkilletHead2, post: 4528726, member: 2036"
What we need right now is leadership,[/QUOTE]
We have a lot of it, thank goodness. Unfortunately not in the most important spot.
I was not a Cuomo fan, but you have to have a ton of respect watching his daily brefings and how, for the most part, he has been on the money from almost the start.
We need Cuomo like effort at the top.
What we need right now is leadership,[/QUOTE]
We have a lot of it, thank goodness. Unfortunately not in the most important spot.
I was not a Cuomo fan, but you have to have a ton of respect watching his daily brefings and how, for the most part, he has been on the money from almost the start.
We need Cuomo like effort at the top.
"I said something and I'm gonna pretend it's unequivocally right"
Opening soon isn't opening early. It's opening before thousands of businesses go bankrupt.
When should we wait until then? Do you have a set time? Cause if you say two months from now, I'm gonna laugh at you.
The problem with this is lack of awareness. Some may be negligent. Many just lack the knowledge. You know better because you're in that field. But to the average american, wearing gloves "prevents spread" which alone is just untrue.
I'm not going to repeat points made by others, many of which I agree with. I would add that it is really unfortunate how many people are waiting in long lines at the nation's food banks even though they are driving really nice new(er) SUVs. This is after only a month or two without a paycheck. How is it that so many people have no emergency fund whatsoever (not to mention no credit limit remaining on their cards) even though they are driving around in $50k vehicles. All these people are so short sighted not to plan for even a basic financial emergency like loss of income for a few months, WTF?
You don't really know that. But more importantly, it isn't a dichotomy, it's various levels. I live in New Zealand and we went hard and went early. Total lockdown for five weeks. And we are getting fewer than 10 new cases a day, all identifiable as to source. So we (today) are moving to a lightened level, which is great.
But Australia has gotten almost as good results with a much lighter lockdown. And then you can look at Sweden, who has taken a more draconian and Darwinian approach, basically leaving the economy open (but asking for a lot of social distancing, etc., and suffered many times more deaths, but they seem to be OK with it.
Another issue with NZ is that we went into this with basically no national debt. Thus, we're able to support people out of work longer and more generously. And we have a 2500 mile moat, so that helps.
The problem as I see it in the US is that it cannot fundamentally eliminate the virus until a vaccine is available. And so it has to have a program of strict social distancing to the degree possible, extensive testing and isolation of the ill, and support for those out of work. I don't think you can do that and have the economy locked down for a year.
I take your point, but basically disagree with it in a society as large and as massively in debt as the US. But I'm guessing on this stuff. Would that there were some grown-ups in the room who know what they are talking about and could lead!
Real tight? three hospitals in the entire state of new york were overwhelmed. That big ship they brought in with 1,000 beds only saw 100 or so patients. The overflow tent hospitals in westchester and suffolk county didnt see a single person. A SINGLE PERSON. Healthcare works across the country are being laid off and furloughed because they have nothing to do. At this moment right now there is not a single hospital that is overwhelmed.
You cannot make public policy on New York City, New Jersey, CT, Boston and long term care facilities. these states are responsible for 28k of the 50k deaths. The long term care facilities are responsible of 50%...
Cuomo has been an outright disaster. i too was happy with cuomo in the beginning but looking back he was terrible.
NY is responsible for 35% of the deaths in the country and 30% of the cases. That isnt including all the people who got sick from New Yorkers fleeing the state. No other state is even close.
1) NY had no ventilators. He begged the federal government to bail him out.
2) he had limited ppe. He begged the federal govt to bail him out.
3) he had limited hospital beds. He begged the federal govt to build him more.
4) he doesnt have the required supplies to test properly. The govt will be bailing him out.
5) He said the state was broke and cannot open up unless the federal gov't gives him more money than what coronovirus cost(wink wink) and wants the federal govt to bail him out.
6) HE FORCED NURSING HOMES TO TAKE COVID PATIENTS! The biggest medical mistake in modern history.
7) He told people that domestic violence was bad but doesnt lead to death, he told people that economic depression was bad but does not equal death. This is false these tragedy's dont equal death until they do.
8) He told people who were unemployed if they wanted jobs to "become an essential worker"
9) he admitted that putting people who were not at risk and quarantining them with at risk people "may not be the best public policy decision"
the question is what did cuomo do right other than badger the federal government after he was immensely unprepared? His state was caught completely with their pants down. And this is NY where we had the biggest terrorist attack in american history. You think he would be some what prepared.
NY is responsible for 35% of the deaths in the country and 30% of the cases. That isnt including all the people who got sick from New Yorkers fleeing the state. No other state is even close.
1) NY had no ventilators. He begged the federal government to bail him out.
2) he had limited ppe. He begged the federal govt to bail him out.
3) he had limited hospital beds. He begged the federal govt to build him more.
4) he doesnt have the required supplies to test properly. The govt will be bailing him out.
5) He said the state was broke and cannot open up unless the federal gov't gives him more money than what coronovirus cost(wink wink) and wants the federal govt to bail him out.
6) HE FORCED NURSING HOMES TO TAKE COVID PATIENTS! The biggest medical mistake in modern history.
7) He told people that domestic violence was bad but doesnt lead to death, he told people that economic depression was bad but does not equal death. This is false these tragedy's dont equal death until they do.
8) He told people who were unemployed if they wanted jobs to "become an essential worker"
9) he admitted that putting people who were not at risk and quarantining them with at risk people "may not be the best public policy decision"
the question is what did cuomo do right other than badger the federal government after he was immensely unprepared? His state was caught completely with their pants down. And this is NY where we had the biggest terrorist attack in american history. You think he would be some what prepared.
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I serve on the Board of a $1B+ healthcare system in Maryland. My career includes representing another $4B+ healthcare systems. And my sister happens to be an EMT in South NJ. With all due respect you are poorly informed.
Great. What hospitals were overwhelmed? Also I would be interested to know why nyc ERs always seem to be overwhelmed with/without coronavirus.
how come the overflow hospitals are empty that the state spent millions on?
Not saying some hospitals are not overwhelmed but The overwhelming majority are not...
maybe just maybe the hospitals that were overwhelmed in nyc were that way because the governor of the state said they needed 30k ventilators but only had 4K, so who was going to tell the 26k people that they were going to die... or the mayor of nyc telling anyone who felt sick to go to ER....
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Hackensack is below 322 for total cases after having been at 470. Again, they're no longer informing staff with daily updates because they said that things are trending so well. I don't care what you know about Maryland. This is not Maryland.
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