I feel like Kareem gets the shaft in these discussions. He was one of the five best basketball players in the world the day he walked on to the UCLA campus in 1965 and the rules didn't let him play. They made rules to slow him down yet he didn't lose his fifth basketball game until he reached the pros. You could have given him the mvp in 11 of his first 12 seasons and no one would have flinched. He won 6 mvp awards 6 nba championships 3 ncaa championships and his sky hook is the greatest offensive weapon in the history of the game. He did everything you could ask of the greatest of all time and if the title was mine to award it would be his.
OT: Lebron James
- Thread starter jiggscasey
- Start date
I think you are failing to see why he said he was the best in the world this week. It was a direct deflection to not throw his dreadful teammates under the bus and claim albeit falsely that they had a chance to win the series. Also said he didn't care if he won the mvp only cared about the championship. Seems like people still go out of their way to find a reason to hate him because he is close to Jordan. Jordan pompous arrogant Kobe pompous arrogant you need that competitiveness. go watch Jordan's hall of fame speech and tell me what the reaction would be if lebron said the same things. Saint michael got a pass for all his transgressions in a less media frenzied era. Aside from leaving Cleveland (unpopular no doubt) james is pretty squeaky clean character wise.
And Lebron's Cleveland teams wouldn't have gotten out of first round match-ups against The Bad Boys, the early 90's Knicks and Pacers, let alone the mid to late 80s Celtics.
Lebron Fan Boys don't want to hear it, but the league is cotton candy now compared to when MJ, Bird, and Magic played.
Lebron is the most unique talent in history. He ain't the best player.
Why does this myth of 80's superiority linger? I grew up in that era. Magic is my favorite player. I accept the argument that Kareem might be the best ever. I can even accept that MJ might be the best ever. But I think Lebron is the best ever.
Athletes are bigger, faster, and stronger now than ever before. They play more organized ball than ever before. They are coached up, for 4 seasons a year, from the time they are 7 years old. It's not hard to reason that today's players are superior.
With that said, Lebron is the G.O.A.T. He would beat MJ in one-on-one the same way Kareem toyed with Dr. J.
Dwayne Wade was a shell of his Shaq days when Lebron was in Miami. Bosh is completely overrated. Scotty Pippen is a far superior player. Jordan was simply surrounded by more talent.
Athletes are bigger, faster, and stronger now than ever before. They play more organized ball than ever before. They are coached up, for 4 seasons a year, from the time they are 7 years old. It's not hard to reason that today's players are superior.
With that said, Lebron is the G.O.A.T. He would beat MJ in one-on-one the same way Kareem toyed with Dr. J.
Dwayne Wade was a shell of his Shaq days when Lebron was in Miami. Bosh is completely overrated. Scotty Pippen is a far superior player. Jordan was simply surrounded by more talent.
It's also hard to compare eras since the game has changed so much over the last 30-40 years.
The guys playing today grew up emulating those guys. What was groundbreaking in 1985 is commonplace today. Dr. J's above-the-rim play led to MJ's above the rim play... but that style of high-flying athleticism is everywhere now and it's no longer as much of a differentiator. And it's not just individual style of play, but the game overall has changed over the years.
As has been said, players today are also, on average, taller and heavier than they were in past eras. Link.
There's also been a host of rule changes that have not only changed the game, but changed the way players specialize their skillsets and prepare for the game. Link.
That all makes it much more difficult to compare a player from the 70-80s to one from today.
The guys playing today grew up emulating those guys. What was groundbreaking in 1985 is commonplace today. Dr. J's above-the-rim play led to MJ's above the rim play... but that style of high-flying athleticism is everywhere now and it's no longer as much of a differentiator. And it's not just individual style of play, but the game overall has changed over the years.
As has been said, players today are also, on average, taller and heavier than they were in past eras. Link.
There's also been a host of rule changes that have not only changed the game, but changed the way players specialize their skillsets and prepare for the game. Link.
That all makes it much more difficult to compare a player from the 70-80s to one from today.
I take offense to your comment that Mike Bibby was "above average". On those Kings teams he was a star. 2001-2004 he was a star, especially clutch in the playoffs. Everything else is fair
The players of today aren't bigger, stronger, and faster, due to an evolutionary change in the human stature since 1985. They're bigger stronger and faster because of weight training, nutrition, and occasionally chemistry.
You put those players on the old Lakers, Celtics, and 76ers, on the same kind of training regimen and they would be equally bigger,faster, and stronger. So you have to compare how these teams were against the competition of their era, and the degree of quality competition in their era.
In the end it becomes a subjective argument regardless of how you slice it.
You put those players on the old Lakers, Celtics, and 76ers, on the same kind of training regimen and they would be equally bigger,faster, and stronger. So you have to compare how these teams were against the competition of their era, and the degree of quality competition in their era.
In the end it becomes a subjective argument regardless of how you slice it.
The rules of the game have changed. The style has changed. MJ AVERAGED 37 points a game for a season with people hanging on him like a cheap suit. MJ was dropping 40 on Pistons teams that were practically assaulting him and had 2 of the best defenders of all time in Dumars and Dennis Rodman. Speaking of which, if you don't think Rodman would have gotten into Lebron's head and severely slowed him down, there is no sense talking. Mahorn or Lambier would have deposited Lebron in the 5th row and he would have "taken his talents" right out of the gym.
This year's Eastern Conference was a joke. If you don't think an MJ led Cleveland team would have gotten to this years final, you're crazy. And if MJ was jacking 35 plus shots a game, he would have averaged 40+ for the series.
Lebron is a great player. Better than Magic. Better than Larry. That said, his dominance is no better than Wilt's or Oscar's. His skill level is no better than Jerry West. And don't even talk to me about what's in his chest compared to Jordan.
This year's Eastern Conference was a joke. If you don't think an MJ led Cleveland team would have gotten to this years final, you're crazy. And if MJ was jacking 35 plus shots a game, he would have averaged 40+ for the series.
Lebron is a great player. Better than Magic. Better than Larry. That said, his dominance is no better than Wilt's or Oscar's. His skill level is no better than Jerry West. And don't even talk to me about what's in his chest compared to Jordan.
The wonders of selective memory. The level of defense has consistently improved. When Jordan averaged 37 the league shooting percentage was .480, this year it was .449 Prior to the bad boy pistons defense in the nba was soft and the rest of league was soft for a while. Go watch full games, not just highlights. There was no zone and the effort was weak. It was the game as it was. Judge a guy by his era but talking about how guys would excel in different situations in hyperbolic tones is silly. Sporting accomplishments have consistently improved and it dubious to claim that the talent and skill of a league was greater 20+ years ago than it now. The NBA wasn't international in the eighties. Now the nba recruits the world and has multiple international players on every team. You really think the league was tougher when the talent pool was limited to the US?
Agreed - found MJ nauseating most of the time; particularly that HOF speech; shameful.
LeBron chose his teammates in Miami with Wade and Bosch. Anyone that was in the latter stage of their career who was great and hadn't won a championship wanted to play with LeBron for less pay.
When he signed with Cleveland, fans on this board was praising him for being loyal to Cleveland for coming back. LeBron may be the smartest basketball player of all time, I saw the four number 1 picks on Cleveland team that needed a few years to develop. LeBron won't need to be the superstar in the near future with his teammates taking over the game. In Miami and Cleveland, he basically picked his teammates which Kobe and Jordan never was never able to do because he took the free agent route without being allowed to be traded.
When he signed with Cleveland, fans on this board was praising him for being loyal to Cleveland for coming back. LeBron may be the smartest basketball player of all time, I saw the four number 1 picks on Cleveland team that needed a few years to develop. LeBron won't need to be the superstar in the near future with his teammates taking over the game. In Miami and Cleveland, he basically picked his teammates which Kobe and Jordan never was never able to do because he took the free agent route without being allowed to be traded.
ANd those shooting percentages dropping are due to better defense and not a drop in the fundamental ability to make shots? or the lack of quality big men getting buckets for 8 feet and in?
To the extent one could see Bulls games in Northern NJ (my cable package as a kid actually had the Chicago equivalent of MSG for the Knicks) I saw every game Jordan played from a rookie until I left for college in 1991. My memory is fine.
Who is guarding the paint in today's game like Hakeem, Ewing, Parish, Jabbar, Lambier, Mahorn, etc? What teams have 6 or 7 HOFers like the Celtics and Lakers?
The raw athletic talent of the league is better. It's better in every successive generation. However, the skill of players as actual basketball players--and not athletes--is not close. Somebody like Kyle Korver--a guy who can consistently make shots--is an anomaly in today's game. In the 80s and 90s every team had a guy like that--sometimes two.