OT: Lebron James

[jiggscasey]

Tonight in the loss James scored or assisted on 70 of the team's 91 points accounting for 77% of the scoring. I was looking through famous games and the closest I found was Kobe was responsible for 69 percent in his 81 point game. Can we get the man some teammates? Has anyone ever been that responsible for more offense outside of a high school game?

 

[jay_hq]

He has team mates. Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love got season ending injuries.

 

[RU1977]

Even if they lose he has to be tournament MVP, no?

 

[JQRU91]

I would guess that Wilt Chamberlain may have had games where he was similarly dominant, but really don't care enough to go research it.

 

[klemman]

Chamberlain had Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, and Gail Goodrich, among others. That's 2 other all-time greats and Hall of Famers and a multiple season All-Star.

 

[bitnez]

while it only accounted for 65% of the total points, Clyde's game 7 is more impressive. 36 pts. and 19 assists in the pre-three era. sick game especially because Reed only played a couple minutes.

 

[Terry_2426]

Even if they lose he has to be tournament MVP, no?

He would have my vote

 

[Knight Shift]

He would have my vote

He would vote for himself too. A little humility would do him good.

 

[jerzeyguy]

Lebron is playing almost 48 minutes a game and basically every Cavs possession is completely ran thru him.

 

[Saint Puppy]

Could do without him tooting his own self-importance a little, but that being said he has been nothing short of amazing. Never quite seen a player like him.

 

[Knight Shift]

Could do without him tooting his own self-importance a little, but that being said he has been nothing short of amazing. Never quite seen a player like him.

Doesn't even come close to Michael Jordan:

 

[vascosg]

I heard someone said he was the best player in the world. Seeing Mosgov JR Shump out there with him does make one wonder what if .... I miss bball at the Garden.

 

[mychaljohn]

Lebron is the best player in the world. He is the best athlete in the world. He is the best basketball player ever. If Lebron were swapped with MJ on every team they both played for, the Bulls would have won 8 or 9 championships, and would have swept their way through all 6 that they did win. With MJ instead of Lebron, the old Cavs, the current Cavs, and two of the Heat teams wouldn't have even made the finals, and the Heat wouldn't have won any of the Lebron championships.

He is the G.O.A.T.

 

[Knight Shift]

I heard someone said he was the best player in the world. Seeing Mosgov JR Shump out there with him does make one wonder what if .... I miss bball at the Garden.

That would be Lebron himself. What a pompous ***.
Like Teddy Roosevelt said: Speak softly and carry a big stick.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Lebron is the best player in the world. He is the best athlete in the world. He is the best basketball player ever. If Lebron were swapped with MJ on every team they both played for, the Bulls would have won 8 or 9 championships, and would have swept their way through all 6 that they did win. With MJ instead of Lebron, the old Cavs, the current Cavs, and two of the Heat teams wouldn't have even made the finals, and the Heat wouldn't have won any of the Lebron championships.

He is the G.O.A.T.

It's a little early to be this far in the bag, no?

 

[RUsundevil]

If curry wasnt there playing as well as he has in the last 2 wins, the warriors dont win. So the best player on the best team being the reason they are winning = mvp to me

 

[klemman]

Could it be possible that Lebron is sending a message to the team that they are still in the series? As long as this team has the best player, if you guys can play hard and help me, we can win.

 

[CHOPU]

Lebron is the best player in the world. He is the best athlete in the world. He is the best basketball player ever. If Lebron were swapped with MJ on every team they both played for, the Bulls would have won 8 or 9 championships, and would have swept their way through all 6 that they did win. With MJ instead of Lebron, the old Cavs, the current Cavs, and two of the Heat teams wouldn't have even made the finals, and the Heat wouldn't have won any of the Lebron championships.

He is the G.O.A.T.

So why did lebron lose 2 finals with the likes of wade and bosh. Plus lost one with wade , bosh and Ray Allen . If it weren't for ray allens big 3 pointer lebron would be 1-4 in NBA finals. a far cry from Jordan's 6-0 and 6 NBA finals MVPs !

 

[Spare130_rivals]

Lebron in finals after tonight ... 2 and 4
Jordan in finals... 6-0

By the way Jordan won his 2 rings with a prime D Wade and a prime Bosh. So lets not say he hasn't had any help. The only reason he went back to Cleveland is because they became washed up an Lebron demanded the cavs to get K love.

Lebron isn't the best athlete in the world, mayweather is more dominant in hid sport than Lebron but gets ripped by the media for saying he's the best. Lebron is about to be 13-18 in finals games and will be known for always leaving when the going gets rough.

 

[jiggscasey]

So why did lebron lose 2 finals with the likes of wade and bosh. Plus lost one with wade , bosh and Ray Allen . If it weren't for ray allens big 3 pointer lebron would be 1-4 in NBA finals. a far cry from Jordan's 6-0 and 6 NBA finals MVPs !

I don't know why anyone would limit a selection size to evaluate a player to the finals. It isn't like Jordan only played 6 seasons. He played lots of other seasons where he didn't get to the finals. Is he better than Kareem Abdul Jabbar because he went 6-0 in the finals and Kareem went 6-4? Kareem was apparently much better at conference championships than Jordan. And Kareem had a much better college career. Kareem gives a respectful nod to Jordan but Kareem was the best player in the world during his time and knows the feeling of walking off the court a victor as well as anyone in sport. Jordan was the best in his time and Lebron is the best in his time. I don't know why it is so important to Jordan fans to degrade anyone else in comparison. Everything that I was taught about how to play team sports is personified in the way Lebron plays on the court. I'd hate to be so caught up in idolatry of a player's legacy that I could never enjoy watching another guy play the sport again for fear that my favorite player's seat on an imaginary list might be challenged.

Game six is tonight and like every other game of this series I expect to be amazed by the intensity, athleticism, and skill on display. Hopefully we get to see a game 7.

 

[CHOPU]

I don't know why anyone would limit a selection size to evaluate a player to the finals. It isn't like Jordan only played 6 seasons. He played lots of other seasons where he didn't get to the finals. Is he better than Kareem Abdul Jabbar because he went 6-0 in the finals and Kareem went 6-4? Kareem was apparently much better at conference championships than Jordan. And Kareem had a much better college career. Kareem gives a respectful nod to Jordan but Kareem was the best player in the world during his time and knows the feeling of walking off the court a victor as well as anyone in sport. Jordan was the best in his time and Lebron is the best in his time. I don't know why it is so important to Jordan fans to degrade anyone else in comparison. Everything that I was taught about how to play team sports is personified in the way Lebron plays on the court. I'd hate to be so caught up in idolatry of a player's legacy that I could never enjoy watching another guy play the sport again for fear that my favorite player's seat on an imaginary list might be challenged.

Game six is tonight and like every other game of this series I expect to be amazed by the intensity, athleticism, and skill on display. Hopefully we get to see a game 7.

See mychaljohn's post that I responded too . He brought up the Jordan/ lebron debate with some ridiculous statements . I'm lucky I was able to witness the greatness of the Jordan era . Wasn't able to see Kareem play so I won't be able to compare the two . I've seen both lebron and Jordan's careers unfold in front of my eyes and I give the edge to Jordan . Yes lebrons the best player of this generation but I don't hold him as high as MJ . Btw I grew up a jazz fan so u would think I would hate MJ bc he beat them twice in the finals !

 

[RUChoppin]

Jordan was a special player, on special teams, with a special coach.

In his first 3 NC seasons, he had his own "big three". Jordan (1st round 1984, 3rd pick), Pippen (1st round 1987, 5th pick), Grant (1st round 1987, 10th pick)... and also Armstrong (1st round 1989, 18th pick) and Cartwright (1st round 1979, 3rd pick) . By himself from 1984-1986, Jordan's Bulls went 108-138. When he got a talent upgrade in 1987 with Pippen and Grant, he went 97-67 over the next two years. Then Armstrong came in and they went 55-27 and lost in the conference finals his rookie season. Once all the pieces were in place, the Bulls were a juggernaut of talent led by Jordan and rattled off 3 straight NCs.

Without him for 2 years, the Bulls went 102-62 and made the conference semifinals twice.

In his next 3 NC seasons, he again had a "big three". Jordan/Pippen were still together, but they had added Toni Kukoc (3 time Euroleague Final Four MVP) in place of Grant. Again, a juggernaut, they rattled of 3 straight NCs.

Jordan never "did it alone" - he had a lot of help, most notably in fellow HOFer Scottie Pippen, but also with Grant and Kukoc. We'll never know if the results would be different, but Jordan would have had a much harder time if he had lost Pippen/Grant prior to any of the Finals in his first run or lost Pippen/Kukoc prior to any of the Finals in his second run.

 

[derleider]

Jordan was a special player, on special teams, with a special coach.

In his first 3 NC seasons, he had his own "big three". Jordan (1st round 1984, 3rd pick), Pippen (1st round 1987, 5th pick), Grant (1st round 1987, 10th pick)... and also Armstrong (1st round 1989, 18th pick) and Cartwright (1st round 1979, 3rd pick) . By himself from 1984-1986, Jordan's Bulls went 108-138. When he got a talent upgrade in 1987 with Pippen and Grant, he went 97-67 over the next two years. Then Armstrong came in and they went 55-27 and lost in the conference finals his rookie season. Once all the pieces were in place, the Bulls were a juggernaut of talent led by Jordan and rattled off 3 straight NCs.

Without him for 2 years, the Bulls went 102-62 and made the conference semifinals twice.

In his next 3 NC seasons, he again had a "big three". Jordan/Pippen were still together, but they had added Toni Kukoc (3 time Euroleague Final Four MVP) in place of Grant. Again, a juggernaut, they rattled of 3 straight NCs.

Jordan never "did it alone" - he had a lot of help, most notably in fellow HOFer Scottie Pippen, but also with Grant and Kukoc. We'll never know if the results would be different, but Jordan would have had a much harder time if he had lost Pippen/Grant prior to any of the Finals in his first run or lost Pippen/Kukoc prior to any of the Finals in his second run.

Thats the other thing. Jordan had a great coach. Lebron has had three nobodies. Guys who's name people wouldnt even know if they hadnt coached Lebron.

 

[jerzeyguy]

Although I think LeBron has more physical talent, I gotta give the edge to Jordan. Simply because I knew when your Jordan was on the floor, the other team had no shot at the title. Because MJ was the ultimate winner. LeBron on the other hand.. I'm not sure if he's gonna hit the big shot or dribble the ball of his foot out of bounds lol

 

[CHOPU]

Jordan was a special player, on special teams, with a special coach.

In his first 3 NC seasons, he had his own "big three". Jordan (1st round 1984, 3rd pick), Pippen (1st round 1987, 5th pick), Grant (1st round 1987, 10th pick)... and also Armstrong (1st round 1989, 18th pick) and Cartwright (1st round 1979, 3rd pick) . By himself from 1984-1986, Jordan's Bulls went 108-138. When he got a talent upgrade in 1987 with Pippen and Grant, he went 97-67 over the next two years. Then Armstrong came in and they went 55-27 and lost in the conference finals his rookie season. Once all the pieces were in place, the Bulls were a juggernaut of talent led by Jordan and rattled off 3 straight NCs.

Without him for 2 years, the Bulls went 102-62 and made the conference semifinals twice.

In his next 3 NC seasons, he again had a "big three". Jordan/Pippen were still together, but they had added Toni Kukoc (3 time Euroleague Final Four MVP) in place of Grant. Again, a juggernaut, they rattled of 3 straight NCs.

Jordan never "did it alone" - he had a lot of help, most notably in fellow HOFer Scottie Pippen, but also with Grant and Kukoc. We'll never know if the results would be different, but Jordan would have had a much harder time if he had lost Pippen/Grant prior to any of the Finals in his first run or lost Pippen/Kukoc prior to any of the Finals in his second run.

Of course MJ couldn't do it by himself and he played with some great players .
While lebron LOST TWICE as the best player in the game with the help of future HOFer Dwayne wade and big man Chris bosh. the juggernaut "big 3" that were gonna win 5,6,7 championships !. Also add future HOFer Ray Allen to the mix for one of those losses and mike bibby to the other . Lebron #1 pick , wade #5, bosh #4, Allen #5 and bibby #2 . Oh I forgot it s the coaches fault that the "big 3" lost 2 finals ! Give me a break .

 

[ndecotii]

I don't understand why everyone always holds Lebron's finals losses against him. That's basically saying that it's better to not make the playoffs or get bounced in the first round so you don't have that blemish on your record. Before this season started, both Lebron and Jordan had the same number of finals wins at the same age, 2. If Lebron loses this series (seems likely) he'll only have one less finals win than Jordan at the same age, but have made it to the finals 3 more times. Who says he can't win another few finals before he retires? He's made a competitive series with the best team in the league by himself.

 

[jiggscasey]

Of course MJ couldn't do it by himself and he played with some great players .
While lebron LOST TWICE as the best player in the game with the help of future HOFer Dwayne wade and big man Chris bosh. the juggernaut "big 3" that were gonna win 5,6,7 championships !. Also add future HOFer Ray Allen to the mix for one of those losses and mike bibby to the other . Lebron #1 pick , wade #5, bosh #4, Allen #5 and bibby #2 . Oh I forgot it s the coaches fault that the "big 3" lost 2 finals ! Give me a break .

Mike Bibby?! Is that seriously a point in an argument? A washed up guy who shot 28 percent in that playoff run and posted a negative win share? Are you serious? You had a reasonable argument up to that point but the fact that you would call Mike Bibby the fourth best player on that team turns your argument into a loser.

 

[Rokodesh]

That would be Lebron himself. What a pompous ***.
Like Teddy Roosevelt said: Speak softly and carry a big stick.

it was intentional to shut up all the people who say he has no killer instinct. Do you think Kobe or Jordan were any less arrogant. Jordan punched Kerr in the face for talking back to him. He was ruthless to opponents. If Lebron did that, he'd be hated by the entire country.

You will never be the best at anything if you concern yourself with how others view you.

 

[RU to the Core]

Per http://NBA.com, Cleveland's Offense in the 22 minutes Lebron James hasn't played in Finals: 18.2 FG%, 00.0 3pt%, 54.6 pts/100 poss, -39.2 net.

So basically without him they would be getting their doors blown out by almost 40 points a game. He is the team. These stats do a good job summing it up.

I got this from an article and it said that the 76ers who tried being bad this year had a 93 pts / 100 poss average during the year. So 54 is not even NBA level type numbers. He's like an all american playing on the JV team right now and keeping them in it.

 

[CHOPU]

Mike Bibby?! Is that seriously a point in an argument? A washed up guy who shot 28 percent in that playoff run and posted a negative win share? Are you serious? You had a reasonable argument up to that point but the fact that you would call Mike Bibby the fourth best player on that team turns your argument into a loser.

pat Riley lebron dwade sounded pretty ecstatic they were able to acquire mike bibby in order to make a championship push .

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6171168

 

[jiggscasey]

pat Riley lebron dwade sounded pretty ecstatic they were able to acquire mike bibby in order to make a championship push .

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6171168

So you are going to measure a player by what his teammates and employer say about him before he plays, rather than evaluate how they performed. I'm sure the Yankees glowed about acquiring Carl Pavano. He was coming off a World Series win. The Yankees must have been huge chokers if adding that key piece didn't bring them a world series.

Mike Bibby was drafted way too high, was an above average point guard for a number of years but never top 5 and by the time he joined the Heat he wasn't any good anymore.

 

[RUChoppin]

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out, the "Lebron James era" that is.

When Lebron turned 30 years old, he had been to 5 Finals and had 2 NCs. 2x Finals MVP, 4x NBA MVP, 11x All Star.
When MJ turned 30 years old, he had been to 2 Finals and had 2 NCs. 2x Finals MVP, 2x NBA MVP, 7x All Star.

MJ went on to see 4 more Finals appearances, 4 more NCs, 4 more Finals MVP, 3 more NBA MVP, 7 more All Star seasons.... all after he turned 30. Will be interesting to see what Lebron accomplishes over the next 6+ years.

 

[klemman]

You can make a rational argument for Jordan being better than James, although it's not a slam dunk Grand Canyon wide chasm that Lebron haters make.

And if Jordan is number one, than James is 2, 3, even 4 or 5, in NBA history. Hardly overrated as some imply.

And sure, James made a poor statement with the 5,6,7 Championships. But that has nothing to do with what was actually accomplished on the court.

 

[CHOPU]

So you are going to measure a player by what his teammates and employer say about him before he plays, rather than evaluate how they performed. I'm sure the Yankees glowed about acquiring Carl Pavano. He was coming off a World Series win. The Yankees must have been huge chokers if adding that key piece didn't bring them a world series.

Mike Bibby was drafted way too high, was an above average point guard for a number of years but never top 5 and by the time he joined the Heat he wasn't any good anymore.

I'll take pat Riley's basketball prowess over yours . Miami added a veteran point guard at a position they needed help in. It may have not worked out they way they had hoped it would but it was a positive move at the time to a pretty good basketball team

 

[jiggscasey]

I'll take pat Riley's basketball prowess over yours . Miami added a veteran point guard at a position they needed help in. It may have not worked out they way they had hoped it would but it was a positive move at the time to a pretty good basketball team

You are embarrassing yourself. You judge the player on what they do. You argued that Bibby should have made then win. Reality is he performed atrocious. He was no help to anyone. Maybe one of the worst players in the league during those playoffs.

 

[CHOPU]

You are embarrassing yourself. You judge the player on what they do. You argued that Bibby should have made then win. Reality is he performed atrocious. He was no help to anyone. Maybe one of the worst players in the league during those playoffs.

No I argued that the best player in the world along with a supporting cast of dwade bosh n bibby should have won ! All I hear is Jordan played which much better players . Yet lebron had a pretty dam impressive supporting cast and still lost .

 

[RUChoppin]

Jordan played with incredible players in all 6 of his Finals appearances and went 6-0. James played with incredible players in 4 of 6 finals appearances, and went 2-2 in those.

As I mentioned above, will be interesting to see the next 6+ years. MJ's legacy really runs from age 28 to 36, with 6 NCs over those 8 years. Lebron's just 30 now - remains to be seen how he does during that same "prime years" span.

 

[CHOPU]

Jordan played with incredible players in all 6 of his Finals appearances and went 6-0. James played with incredible players in 4 of 6 finals appearances, and went 2-2 in those.

As I mentioned above, will be interesting to see the next 6+ years. MJ's legacy really runs from age 28 to 36, with 6 NCs over those 8 years. Lebron's just 30 now - remains to be seen how he does during that same "prime years" span.

Well said!

 

[FrankZ_RU93]

Would have been interesting to see how many titles out of MJ's 6 title teams they would have won 10 years earlier in the 80s...as a Bird/Celtics fan (and Lakers respecter), I say not many.

 

[klemman]

Jordan's running mates were in their prime. Bosh was but Wade physically was no longer in his prime. The Bulls teams also had greater depth in talent.

I'll buy that Jordan in the hierarchy of all time basketball greats is number one. But James is also in the argument for that spot and certainly not far behind.