We all have free will and there is Sin, it's simply our choice whether to Sin or freely choose Almighty God's rules against it.
There are consequences either way.
Inside the White House Bible Study group
- Thread starter Brushy Bill
- Start date
We all have free will and there is Sin, it's simply our choice whether to Sin or freely choose Almighty God's rules against it.
There are consequences either way.
It's not my Faith. It is what Almighty God has revealed to us as Truth which I choose to believe. We can either accept it or reject it. You are free to do either.
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Same reason I mock him for saying he’s conservative, because it’s just another lie.
Because free will opens up all possibilities to you. You can reject gravity, but you cannot escape the consequences of doing so if you jump out of an airplane at 30,000 feet with no parachute. So it is with Sin. You can reject it, even the God who warns against it. But you cannot escape the consequences that follow as a result.
Democrats who voted against the tax cuts said the economy would tank if they passed, did you mock them for that lie?
That’s not a lie, it’s simply a wrong prediction. Lie is something you know is untrue.
So them giving credit to Obama for the economic boom as a direct result of the tax cuts they voted against is a lie correct?
You nor your belief is permitted to define the parameters of my faith. In your context of belief, everything you say is true, I’m fine with that, and moreover, I respect it. It however, is not my reality.
So you don't think Trump is a true Conservative even though he is Pro Life, supports traditional Marriage and is a strong supporter of our 2nd amendment rights?
Yet you swollow that Obama is a Christian even though he is Pro Abortion, Pro Gay Marriage and favors strict limits on our 2nd amendment rights?
So why do you believe Obama about his Faith and disbelieve Trump about his?
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I respect that. I said it's your choice to believe or reject Almighty God's Truth. I simply said it's not my personal Truth, emanating from me to insist you believe.
Believe what you want, makes no difference to me. I'm simply stating what I believe as Truth because it is what Almighty God says is True.
I think Trump is saying whatever he has to to get power, which doesn't make him all that different from lots of politicians. But re. gay marriage, I don't think Trump cares in the slightest that gays get married. I think in a way Trump is the best proponent ever of gay marriage because he'll be able to entice some people to be for it that the Left would never be able to entice.
Donald Trump is the first POTUS ever elected to be pro-gay marriage from the start.
It’s not a binary choice of acccepting or rejecting. It’s acknowledgement or disbelief. I can’t reject something that I don’t believe exists in the context you believe.
From a process flow, you’re one level lower than I am. Like this:
Do you believe? Yes/No; if no, stop
If yes, do you accept or reject? Yes/no
The consequences process flow begins on the next level after yours.
I get it. I don't believe I can lift 500 lbs. Even if I did, that wouldn't make it true unless I lifted it. Faith is not something that is True just because you believe it. You have to test it. That becomes your testimony, and not everyone will either accept it or believe it.
Truth however is not relative. You can disbelieve everything and for most things you'd probably be right to do so, except for those things that are true. Not all things are true, but some are. Wisdom comes when you understand which is which and how to know the difference.
Mostly true but in your flow chart as I said earlier in the thread you can reject Sin but you can't escape its consequences whether you believe it or not. That can be both tested and true.
I've been trying to do it it for many years my man. Being a Born Again Christian is an easy task to achieve, but maintaining it takes more than lip service and going to Church on a regular schedule. Good works alone will not get you through the Pearly Gates. Asking forgiveness for a committed sin means nothing if the same sin is continued.
100% agreement. It's your desires that change through the power of Christ, and learning to rely on him to help you resist your natural Sinful desires. Good for you!:clap:
Sin is not defined by an external entity in my belief structure. I have a moral code I define based on my own moral definitions and measure against that. I can only sin against myself.
Well now if you have set up your own morality and definition of Sin, how is it possible you violate your own standards?
Why not just say nothing is Sin in your morality and skip all the nomenclature?
For instance in your world, there'd be no such thing as murder...and if you killed someone you could simply insist it doesnt exist in your morality, so it would be impossible for you to kill anyone.
Or use that example on anything you wish to define on your own as Sin or non Sin. It's your world, and only you get to define what's in it. Right?
Sounds like the Hillary Clinton/ James Comey "intent" defense. "I didn't intend to violate what's in the law because it didn't fit my definition of it".
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Okay so let's suppose everyone else had the same morality as you and decided that their Sin is not what you think is Sin?
So they Sin against you but they don't think they did, but you do according to your own standards? However they tell you their standards are not yours and you have no right to call their Sin against you Sin!
Who settles that dispute?
Because I don’t move my goal lines.
For starters, I don’t call it sin, but it seems easier discuss apples to apples with you, so, we’ll stick with your definition. Lowering standards is not something I do inwardly or outwardly. I’m by far my own biggest critic and the standards I live to and measure against are higher than anything in your religion, albeit different standards.
You’re projecting your vision of my belief structure assuming I make it up as I go or change it to suit me. I hate failure, I hate half measures, and I detest lowering expectations, standards, or making excuses for poor performance.
Honestly, in all of the interactions we’ve had on this board, do you really think when choosing the path I’ve chosen to walk that I wouldn’t have made it akin to a righteous path equally challenging?
It is my world, I do get to define it. I still observe the laws of man, country above self is a core foundational tenet of my morality.
I define my purpose, my reason, and my principles. They may evolve, but never out of convenience.
That is their choice. I don’t push my path onto anyone else.
The ****, is that an actual question.
Someone can’t sin against me. They can break the law, and I’ll let the law handle it. If they threaten my person, then the rule of law is swift and I carry it’s justice.
There isn’t a dispute of morality. I set my own code in which I live my life. It’s my code, it’s not someone else’s. I don’t apply my standards to other people, that would be unfair to them. When it comes to personal interactions, the laws of men apply. Simple, really.
I refuse to acknowledge a power greater than my own.
I read this and I understand your arguments but it's a mass of contradictions. Primarily because you have your own definitions of morality which is fine, but it's not clear when "man's" definitions supercede your own or vice versa?
That's close to anarchy, or at least situational morality depending on who gets to decide who's morality is prevalent? My point is morality cannot be subjective and available to any one particular evaluation.
That certainly is your right to pick your own standards but no way that applies to your interactions with others or any more than you accepting others definitions for yourself!
An objective morality based on a common standard is really the only logical way to split the differences and avoid endless anarchy which in fact the absence of an objective moral standard will create since there will always be a remnant that chooses no morality at all.
How do you force someone like that to even participate or be civil? It's fine to reject the objective morality we find as a standard in the rule book of life from where our basic laws of justice are sourced...but rejecting those standards in exchange for what we deem unto ourselves individually is moral will lead to actual moral decay.
Doing only what you think is right is ultimately wrong.
excerpt:
"If someone thinks they create what is right and wrong based on what they believe—then they have a rude awakening coming. Why? Because the reality is what we run into when we are wrong"
"Anything goes is what happens when there is no objective morality."
Why anything goes is dangerous:
Link
https://www.crosswalk.com/family/career/why-anything-goes-is-dangerous.html
Are you saying man’s laws don’t contradict your Christian based morality? I can think of 1 right off of the top of my head. There contradictions between man’s law and Christian dogma everywhere.
I have to defer to the laws of man, just like everyone else.
As I said, I don’t apply my standards to others or expect them to even respect mine. They’re for me.
Do you think I’m unable to be a functioning member of society?
Let me try it this way DvlDog4WVU. We're both sports fans right? We have a healthy respect for the game...competition, the effort required to win and all that right?
Do we get to play by our own set of rules? I know we get mad at Big 12 Zebras, but my point is the rules are not open to our choice to participate are they? If we don't follow the rules, we can't play correct?
OK...so you say you make up your own standards, and don't follow any objective standards (correct me if I'm misstating your position) so how can you insist on your own set of rules to live by or when do you set your own rules aside when Society's rules interfere with your own?
We can live as we see fit, but we don't get to make our own morality for obvious reasons. I understand what you're saying and I respect that, but I simply struggle to see how it has practical application in a pluralistic society where objective of morality must be recognized by all in order for the society to function without descending into a giant pissing match over who's rules we play under?
All the time! That's what Sin is. Man says Abortion is legal. Almighty God says murder is Sin. And here we are aren't we?
This is what confuses me. Because you're also arguing that you don't follow anyone else's morality. Why defer to anyone then?
More contradictions here. If this is true, then how do you so willingly obey the Laws of Man? Who's standards do you follow when there is a conflict?
No of course not. But you reject the standard giver of morality and substitute your own. At some point those two divergent paths intersect...then what do you do? On one hand you say you go your own way, yet on the other hand you will defer to the Laws of Man. Well, his Laws are based on a source you reject. And here we are right back at the the top of this circle we're arguing in.
I’m not in a circle. You seem to think I’m seeking acceptance of understanding of my beliefs. I’m not. You don’t seem to seek understanding, but are more focused on trying to disprove the logic of my beliefs. Believe me when I tell you, there is literally nothing you could say, do, or show me which would alter my path. Doesn’t matter.
It's not up to what you or I say or believe DvlGog4WVU. We don't get to make up our own morality, period. If everyone did, it'd be total chaos.
Oh trust me @DvlDog4WVU it is not my purpose or intent to change your mind. One thing I've come to understand after raising 7 head strong children and dealing with an equally headstrong Wife for 36 years, you can't make an adult change their mind once their mind is made up. I only wanted to point out some immutable Truths to you that no matter what else you believe, they will never change.
You exist on a planet and stand on it governed by Laws...how it rotates on its axis precisely around the Sun, it's physiological and biological composition, even where it is positioned and held in order as it orbits around the Sun relative to other planets and those Laws exist and are regulated perfectly according to the order of their arrangement by their Law giver. They're not here by accident and they govern you no matter if you accept or reject them. In short you are powerless to change them.
Your own physical characteristics are governed by the same parameters. Your biological and physiological makeup as well as the Laws that govern how your body is composed and functions are regulated according to a set order and rules as designed by their creator which do not require your belief or acceptance. They are not there by accident, and you have no control over them. They govern you no matter if you choose to believe them or not.
Concurrently, our morality or how we as humans are governed and function are bound by the same immutable unchangeable Laws. We do not adjust the morality which has been established for us by our Supreme Law giver, nor are we immune from the consequences that have been pre-defined as violations of "moral" behavior or "Sin", no matter if we believe it to be such or not. They are not there by accident, and they govern us as designed no matter if we believe them or not. In short, they do not require either our acceptance or permission to function.
We simply have our free will, to accept or reject the providence placed over us in all of these things.We are not offered a chance to form our own set of moral Laws, or physiology, or biology. We are only given a chance to accept or reject those that are already Supreme over us. Neither decision is without consequence. Violate the laws of science and nature, there are serious consequences. Violate the Laws of physiology and biology, there are serious consequences. Violate the Laws of morality there are serious consequences. Hitler rejected his duty to obey moral Laws...and for a time he violated those Laws without consequence but not forever and certainly not without suffering the ultimate consequences which also caused great harm to millions of other people who followed him or were his victims.
Throughout human history, people have tried to defy the Laws of nature, or the Laws of morality which have been pre-established since the foundations of mankind. It is possible to reject them, certainly even to call them something else. It is not possible however to escape the consequences of violating any of the limits within those Laws which do not exist in a vacuum, or in "theory" or as an allegory, but they do exist as a provable testament to the power as well as the Truth behind their source.
That is not open to your interpretation or disbelief...merely acceptance, or rejection and that is also not without consequence no matter which you choose.
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I never said I don’t believe there is a much higher power. I just don’t think Christianity has the secret sauce solved. I don’t think benevolence to a higher power is our intended path. And again, you don’t get to use your belief structure to define my path. In the context of your life and what you understand to be unmitigated truth, your position is accurate. It doesn’t apply to me because the foundational elements of your belief structure aren’t present in mine.
But here’s the thing, and I don’t even understand why this is still going, I applaud your faith and it works for you. My faith works for me. I’m not lacking or wanting in a single aspect of my spirituality.
I respect that, I truly do. Follow your own path--I'll defend your right to do so. As long as you accept the consequences of your decisions, and remain Lawful I have no issues with whatever works for you.
I accepted death 15 years ago. What comes after, I’m at peace with not knowing. What comes before, I’m at peace with my path.
I appreciate how you've settled that conflict. For me, I needed assurance this path I'm following is not just some giant game show no one can win, and we're not all simply just a bunch of bubbly contestants faking true joy for a meaningless prize. You and I see eye-to-eye on much, including organized Religion because I agree with you Christianity does NOT have all the answers. I do see it as "an" answer though....even if not THE answer.
I personally believe we're just not ready for THE answer.