What the Left is missing about poor Blacks

[atlkvb]

Even though charters are public and can't really turn people away, the students who are least likely to finish may just not even bother with charter schools while they are legally still required to be in a school so they default back to the TPS

The whole idea behind opening Charter schools is to give Parents another option in the case of unmotivated students. Competition will force unresponsive schools to those student's needs to close, and offer troubled students as well as their Parents better options tailored to address the specific academic issues unmotivating non performing students. Some kids are simply not challenged, and others are not getting close attention they deserve or require. All kids can learn, the challenge is to find school education options that have developed ways to meet these particular student's needs. Charter schools can be adapted through their curriculums to address the specific needs of some unmotivated students.

My really issue is with voucher programs. Not because poor students shouldn't have access to private education if they choose, but rather because I feel that many private schools are taking advantage of it without actually delivering superior educational services.

You can't hold Private and Charter schools accountable for results and simultaneously excuse most Government run schools for their blatant non performance. Vouchers hold ALL schools accountable...both Public and non traditional so taxpayers are assured their dollars are performing and producing results for our kids. Ironically, Private schools facing competition already successfully deliver on performance. If you are being intellectually honest, you'd welcome educational accountability for Public schools in a similar way you expect Private schools not receiving public funding to produce results. Vouchers are your answer, and competition for more funding dollars is the mechanism for ensuring the accountability you should demand for both Private and Public education.

 

[MountaineerWV]

The evidence of Charter schools where they are allowed to operate without heavy limits or restrictions is that they outperform TPS (traditional public schools) The most dramatic increases are seen where Public schools perform most deficiently (inner cities) and unfortunately I couldn't directly compare those statistics for you. Educators tend to mix school data system wide, and the few better performing Public schools tend to wash out the very poorly performing inner city schools where charters are more effective. But even allowing for that statistical anomaly, Charter schools still outperform TPS overall, and if you include existing Private schools into the data TPS get buried.

Bullsh!t......each INDIVIDUAL school's performance is listed on the state's education website.....stop trying to hand-pick or makeup arguments.......

And for each of the successes you put out there for charter, there are 10X more success stories in public schools......

 

[MountaineerWV]

You are correct of course.

Ummm.....Dave....no, he wasn't.......I don't have the option he was speaking of.......

 

[atlkvb]

Bullsh!t......each INDIVIDUAL school's performance is listed on the state's education website.....stop trying to hand-pick or makeup arguments.......

And for each of the successes you put out there for charter, there are 10X more success stories in public schools......

OK...I'm going to assume just for the sake of argument (although you are dead wrong) that you're correct.

So show me where Parents if given a choice are lining up to attend Public schools when a Charter option is available for them. Why are there wait lists for Charter schools or Parents removing their kids from Government run schools and signing up to have them placed into Charter or Private schools?

While you're not answering that, please explain to me why even Public school educators and in fact a majority of Government employees also choose Private education for their student's needs over Public education? Not all but many, most in fact. For example, Federal Government employees in Washington D.C. do NOT send their kids to D.C. Public schools. Why not?

Parsing and excuse making is allowed in your answer.

 

[atlkvb]

for each of the successes you put out there for charter, there are 10X more success stories in public schools......

Who's making up sh*t? I 100% guarantee you there are no statistics anywhere in any school system in this country where you can show me 10 times more Government run schools outperforming Private or even Charter schools!

Nowhere.

When they are compared side-by-side against Public schools, even with lower numbers overall...Private schools are typically at the top of most performance lists. Direct school-to-school comparisons in specific areas even show NO Public schools outperforming Private schools in those exact same areas.

Extrapolating those figures out to County or State levels brings the numbers up somewhat for Public schools because you include better performing ex-urban districts...but the raw data still show Private schools in those SMSAs (standard metropolitan statistical areas) outperforming even the better suburban districts and it's not even close.

 

[MountaineerWV]

You are so full of it.........while you are focusing on the poor performance of the inner city schools, MOST of the public school systems are doing on par or BETTER than Charter schools. And now I see you are bringing in private schools to the argument. Wonder why? Because your argument that "all charter schools are better" or that "public education is failing" is flawed.......grossly flawed.......

If I posted the statistical findings, you would just use your argument that the numbers are "flawed".....like always......you are a broken record......

 

[atlkvb]

Ummm.....Dave....no, he wasn't.......I don't have the option he was speaking of.......

Yeah, but didn't you suggest there were no such options? Maybe not for you that's true, but there are utility companies competing for customers in the same areas.

 

[atlkvb]

You are so full of it.........while you are focusing on the poor performance of the inner city schools, MOST of the public school systems are doing on par or BETTER than Charter schools. And now I see you are bringing in private schools to the argument. Wonder why? Because your argument that "all Charter schools are better" or that "public education is failing" is flawed.......grossly flawed.......

If I posted the statistical findings, you would just use your argument that the numbers are "flawed".....like always......you are a broken record......

I'm arguing the failure of Public education compared to Private schools, and I'm arguing for the better performance overall for Charter schools vs Public. Of course statistics will vary and there are always exceptions, but the general rule is Private and/or Charter schools on average outperform Public schools. (some of the Charter schools even are public...what happens when you compare them to their non Charter Public counterparts?)

I know you don't like the idea of taking Government out of education, and giving that control to Parents and Private educators. As I said, it's all about maintaining control. But you can't stop the trend. Parents love school choice. Teachers (those not controlled by Unions) love school choice. Administrators (again those not controlled by political school boards) love school choice.

The only ones opposed to it are Union leaders, Democrat pols, and school administrators on political boards of education who don't want to lose their power or control over the $$$$$$$ they get to move around for their own benefits. To Hell with the kids, got to protect those jobs & $$$$$$$ don't 'ya know?

btw...why aren't you answering my questions in post #84 and #85?

 

[MountaineerWV]

On average, nationally, students in 17 percent of charter schools performed significantly better than if they had attended their neighborhood traditional public school. On the flip side, students in 37 percent of charter schools performed significantly worse, and students in the remaining 46 percent of charter schools did not perform significantly better or worse than if they had attended their neighborhood traditional public school. However, research also shows that students in charter high schools score higher on college entrance exams (e.g., the SAT or ACT) and are more likely to graduate high school and attend college than similar students in traditional public schools.

 

[MountaineerWV]

The largest national study of charter school performance was conducted by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes (CREDO) at Stanford University in 2013. Researchers found that overall, students in charter schools are outperforming their district-run school peers in reading, adding an average seven days of learning per year, and performing as well as students in district-run public schools in math. A 2015 CREDO study by found that students enrolled in urban charter schools gained 40 additional days of learning in math per year and 28 additional days in reading compared to their district school peers. In both studies, results were more pronounced for minority students from low-income backgrounds, and the results increased the longer a student was enrolled in a charter school.

So, basically, reading improved by a "7-day average" and math was the same with public schools. Yep, that settles it!

As for urban areas, as I stated previously, it's much EASIER to have charter schools than in rural areas......

 

[atlkvb]

The largest national study of charter school performance was conducted by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes (CREDO) at Stanford University in 2013. Researchers found that overall, students in charter schools are outperforming their district-run school peers in reading, adding an average seven days of learning per year, and performing as well as students in district-run public schools in math. A 2015 CREDO study by found that students enrolled in urban charter schools gained 40 additional days of learning in math per year and 28 additional days in reading compared to their district school peers. In both studies, results were more pronounced for minority students from low-income backgrounds, and the results increased the longer a student was enrolled in a charter school.

So, basically, reading improved by a "7-day average" and math was the same with public schools. Yep, that settles it!

As for urban areas, as I stated previously, it's much EASIER to have charter schools than in rural areas......

I cited that Stanford research in this thread if you go back and read it. Charter schools haven't been around long yet their performance to date has been impressive and as I mentioned much more so in inner city areas where I'm most familiar with them.

As the trend away from Government only education continues, I expect Charter schools to show even better performance results compared to their non charter Public counterparts.

Charter schools are an answer to improving the performance of Public schools but I remain convinced the best options for students and Parents are Private schools. When you compare their performance vs Public schools, even allowing for the improved scores of Public Charter schools, the scores are significantly higher.

 

[MountaineerWV]

I cited that Stanford research in this thread if you go back and read it. Charter schools haven't been around long yet their performance to date has been impressive and as I mentioned much more so in inner city areas where I'm most familiar with them.

As the trend away from Government only education continues, I expect Charter schools to show even better performance results compared to their non charter Public counterparts.

Charter schools are an answer to improving the performance of Public schools but I remain convinced the best options for students and Parents are Private schools. When you compare their performance vs Public schools, even allowing for the improved scores of Public Charter schools, the scores are significantly higher.

You, sir, are NOT correct....the scores are NOT significantly higher. As stated in that survey, slightly higher in reading and NO DIFFERENCE in math.

 

[MountaineerWV]

.....and Charter schools have been around since 1991......

 

[TarHeelEer]

Those schools are typically criminally underfunded. I also wonder if there is an inherent bias on charter schools getting, on average, students more likely to succeed in either setting than TPS.

We have charter schools in the area that specialized in troubled teenagers. They are definitely a good thing.

 

[atlkvb]

You, sir, are NOT correct....the scores are NOT significantly higher. As stated in that survey, slightly higher in reading and NO DIFFERENCE in math.

Well yada, yada, yada...let's all sign up for more Public Schools! Why can't/won't you answer my questions to you in posts #84 and #85?

 

[MountaineerWV]

Well yada, yada, yada...let's all sign up for more Public Schools! Why can't/won't you answer my questions to you in posts #84 and #85?

You will have to ask the Federal government officials that question. I cannot answer (and neither can YOU!). But, to speculate (which is what you are good at doing), typical with most upper class families, they do not like to "mix" with the lower class people or have their kids be treated as "equal" to the lower class kids.......[thumbsup]

And as for speaking on an individual school basis, I am very confident that for each "great" charter school there will be 10 "great" public school........

Again, numbers don't lie......and the reality is that charter school have been around for over 20 years and the only thing that they can say is that their students score slightly better on the ACT/SAT and they are 7 days ahead of public students in reading.........Whoa!

 

[atlkvb]

You will have to ask the Federal government officials that question. I cannot answer (and neither can YOU!). But, to speculate (which is what you are good at doing), typical with most upper class families, they do not like to "mix" with the lower class people or have their kids be treated as "equal" to the lower class kids.......[thumbsup]

And as for speaking on an individual school basis, I am very confident that for each "great" charter school there will be 10 "great" public school........

Again, numbers don't lie......and the reality is that charter school have been around for over 20 years and the only thing that they can say is that their students score slightly better on the ACT/SAT and they are 7 days ahead of public students in reading.........Whoa!

Figures lie and Liars figure but if you talk to the parents of students who choose Charter Schools you will find they are satisfied.

 

[MountaineerWV]

Figures lie and Liars figure but if you talk to the parents of students who choose Charter Schools you will find they are satisfied.

And I've talked to parents who are currently in my kids' public school......and they are HAPPY! [thumbsup]

 

[atlkvb]

You will have to ask the Federal government officials that question. I cannot answer (and neither can YOU!). But, to speculate (which is what you are good at doing), typical with most upper class families, they do not like to "mix" with the lower class people or have their kids be treated as "equal" to the lower class kids.......[thumbsup]

And as for speaking on an individual school basis, I am very confident that for each "great" charter school there will be 10 "great" public school........

Again, numbers don't lie......and the reality is that charter school have been around for over 20 years and the only thing that they can say is that their students score slightly better on the ACT/SAT and they are 7 days ahead of public students in reading.........Whoa!

If I had more time or the inclination I'd rake your *** over the coals about that completely classless statement you made about upper people not wanting to mix with lower classes.

That flies in the face of everything you Leftists try to argue about us coming together and there being no divisions according to class. What a class bigot you are!

 

[atlkvb]

And I've talked to parents who are currently in my kids' public school......and they are HAPPY! [thumbsup]

Parents who have a choice especially poor parents choose Charter and private schools.

 

[Keyser76]

Parents who have a choice especially poor parents choose Charter and private schools.

Private and charter schools hire the teachers unqualified to teach in pubic schools, but who cares, go after public school teachers too, they do interfere by educating the rubes kids into questioning what Mommy and Daddy want them to believe.

 

[MountaineerWV]

Parents who have a choice especially poor parents choose Charter and private schools.

Says you.........my data says otherwise.......continue to threaten to "rake my a$$" all you want.......your own statistics show that the achievement levels of charter schools are NOT substantially better than public schools......and now you are shifting to the court of public opinion, but the problem is that you are using only the "people you know" as your basis for the statement that "parents would choose charter schools". Too bad my own "public opinion" is different than yours.

I get it, though......charter schools help out your party's rich friends like the Koch Brothers get money from state governments for their schools that turn out the same product as traditional public schools......

 

[MountaineerWV]

Private and charter schools hire the teachers unqualified to teach in pubic schools, but who cares, go after public school teachers too, they do interfere by educating the rubes kids into questioning what Mommy and Daddy want them to believe.

Do you find it funny these individuals talk so highly of charter schools and state that they can achieve better because "restrictions are lifted allowing more freedom"? Why don't they work to remove these same "restrictions" they believe are on public schools and then there is no need for charter schools? Right? Oh, but that would take the profit margin out of it for certain wealthy individuals who invest in to charter schools for profit.......Hmmm.....opcorn:

 

[TarHeelEer]

Private and charter schools hire the teachers unqualified to teach in pubic schools, but who cares, go after public school teachers too, they do interfere by educating the rubes kids into questioning what Mommy and Daddy want them to believe.

State your case. Link the evidence.

 

[atlkvb]

Private and charter schools hire the teachers unqualified to teach in pubic schools, but who cares, go after public school teachers too, they do interfere by educating the rubes kids into questioning what Mommy and Daddy want them to believe.

Private and Charter Schools hire teachers who are held accountable for results. If they don't produce satisfactory results they get someone else who can.

 

[atlkvb]

Says you.........my data says otherwise.......continue to threaten to "rake my a$$" all you want.......your own statistics show that the achievement levels of charter schools are NOT substantially better than public schools......and now you are shifting to the court of public opinion, but the problem is that you are using only the "people you know" as your basis for the statement that "parents would choose charter schools". Too bad my own "public opinion" is different than yours.

I get it, though......charter schools help out your party's rich friends like the Koch Brothers get money from state governments for their schools that turn out the same product as traditional public schools......

I told you if you are listening that I actually prefer private schools which are superior over all to Public Schools but I'm satisfied with the job that charter schools are doing at least giving parents especially poor ones a viable optional choice.

 

[atlkvb]

Do you find it funny these individuals talk so highly of charter schools and state that they can achieve better because "restrictions are lifted allowing more freedom"? Why don't they work to remove these same "restrictions" they believe are on public schools and then there is no need for charter schools? Right? Oh, but that would take the profit margin out of it for certain wealthy individuals who invest in to charter schools for profit.......Hmmm.....opcorn:

How much resistance would there be to Charter Schools if it weren't for the teachers unions?

 

[TarHeelEer]

Do you find it funny these individuals talk so highly of charter schools and state that they can achieve better because "restrictions are lifted allowing more freedom"? Why don't they work to remove these same "restrictions" they believe are on public schools and then there is no need for charter schools? Right? Oh, but that would take the profit margin out of it for certain wealthy individuals who invest in to charter schools for profit.......Hmmm.....opcorn:

Haven't "progressives" put most of these rules on public schools? Funny to see a lib wanting less regulation.

 

[atlkvb]

Haven't "progressives" put most of these rules on public schools? Funny to see a lib wanting less regulation.

He's so blinded by his loyalty to the government schools he doesn't even understand he's arguing for the exact reason behind charter schools to begin with!

 

[atlkvb]

State your case. Link the evidence.

He won't because he can't.

 

[MountaineerWV]

He's so blinded by his loyalty to the government schools he doesn't even understand he's arguing for the whole reason behind charter schools to begin with!

No, I'm arguing that it's crazy to start up new schools, make them for-profit schools, use government money, but lift the regulations off them and keep the same regulations on traditional public schools. Just lift the regulations, and you no longer need charter schools. A quick fix is to go back to the way it was 30+ years ago. Stop forcing every child to take geometry or trigonometry, or world history, etc. and allow those that choose to take basic math and basic history and basic science and work in vocational studies field inside the public school. Our government leaders, both Democrat and Republican, felt the need to treat every child like a cookie cutter when it comes to learning and interests.........lift those restrictions, and you'll see dramatic changes and no need for your "open competition" for education.

 

[TarHeelEer]

Our government leaders, both Democrat and Republican, felt the need to treat every citizen like a cookie cutter when it comes to healthcare.........lift those restrictions, and you'll see dramatic changes and no need for the additional bureaucracy in healthcare.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

Private and charter schools hire the teachers unqualified to teach in pubic schools, but who cares, go after public school teachers too, they do interfere by educating the rubes kids into questioning what Mommy and Daddy want them to believe.

Hahahhaa ok.

I guarantee the private schools in my area are vastly outperforming the public schools in which my kids would go to (I did the damn research) Your assertion is ridiculous.

 

[atlkvb]

No, I'm arguing that it's crazy to start up new schools, make them for-profit schools, use government money, but lift the regulations off them and keep the same regulations on traditional public schools. Just lift the regulations, and you no longer need charter schools. A quick fix is to go back to the way it was 30+ years ago. Stop forcing every child to take geometry or trigonometry, or world history, etc. and allow those that choose to take basic math and basic history and basic science and work in vocational studies field inside the public school. Our government leaders, both Democrat and Republican, felt the need to treat every child like a cookie cutter when it comes to learning and interests.........lift those restrictions, and you'll see dramatic changes and no need for your "open competition" for education.

I actually agree with a lot of what you call for here but your problem is with the teachers unions not me!

 

[MountaineerWV]

I actually agree with a lot of what you call for here but your problem is with the teachers unions not me!

So, you think that the teacher's union wants all these regulations and testing requirements? You don't think teachers would like to assist those students who seek a vocational study instead of being forced to be in their geometry or chemistry classes? You are crazy.

 

[atlkvb]

So, you think that the teacher's union wants all these regulations and testing requirements? You don't think teachers would like to assist those students who seek a vocational study instead of being forced to be in their geometry or chemistry classes? You are crazy.

I'm not imposing the restrictions MWV. I said I agree they should be lifted. They are in Charter Schools.

 

[MountaineerWV]

I'm not imposing the restrictions MWV. I said I agree they should be lifted. They are in Charter Schools.

And the teacher's union are fighting these restrictions and regulations......yet you made the claim that I should "thank them" for all these regulations.......

 

[bornaneer]

Hahahhaa ok.

I guarantee the private schools in my area are vastly outperforming the public schools in which my kids would go to (I did the damn research) Your assertion is ridiculous.

Maybe they don't have any private schools in Keyser. Everyone knows that private schools vastly outperform public schools. It was an easy choice for the Obamas and Clintons......Sidwell Friends School.

 

[bornaneer]

Private schools hire the teachers unqualified to teach in pubic schools, but who cares, go after public school teachers too, they do interfere by educating the rubes kids into questioning what Mommy and Daddy want them to believe.

Idiot.......It was an easy choice for the Obamas and Clintons......Sidwell Friends School.

 

[atlkvb]

And the teacher's union are fighting these restrictions and regulations......yet you made the claim that I should "thank them" for all these regulations.......

I said no such thing. All that I've argued for in this thread is giving Parents choices for educating their kids through the use of vouchers that will spark competition among schools offering the options Parents and students need.

You agree flexibility, vocational options, adaptability for individual student needs and freedom to innovate with curricula are all desirable components to higher quality education for students, then you too should join the growing movement away from Government controlled schools and towards vouchers, charter, and Private schools.