When did Howland lose you?
- Thread starter MSUDC11
- Start date
I'm probably crazy, but this program lost me tonight. I'll never be able to get emotionally invested until something major changes, because the games all keep ending the same way. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 8 including 4 in a row now, I'm clearly insane.
I admit I had my head in the sand about this, constantly hoping they'd still pull out a big win or 2 and a tourney bid. I selfishly want the team to be successful because I thoroughly enjoy watching MSU basketball be successful--it always reminds me of how much fun I had in the Hump in college in the mid 2000s. I really hate that this team can't get over the hump for them, because I know how much it sucks to keep falling an inch short of success.
I don't think its just Howland tho, for whatever reason this team just can't make a clutch shot or sometimes even an open layup. Howland can't do that for them.
I'm also severely disappointed in the admin for seemingly not even TRYING to fix the atmosphere problem that's been going on for 10+ years now. I get we're a rural school in a small town, but that was the case during all of Stansbury's run too and it wasn't ever an excuse back then (or if it was I didn't hear it). I'll fully admit I'm part of the problem tho, former season ticket holder alum that moved out of state and can't get to Starkville very often anymore. Maybe there are too many like me holding back the population to draw crowds from, and the 2000s were an anomaly.
It's very clear whatever is going on with this program is not working. Or maybe it is, but this is the new ceiling. I just don't want to accept perpetual mediocrity as the ceiling.
I admit I had my head in the sand about this, constantly hoping they'd still pull out a big win or 2 and a tourney bid. I selfishly want the team to be successful because I thoroughly enjoy watching MSU basketball be successful--it always reminds me of how much fun I had in the Hump in college in the mid 2000s. I really hate that this team can't get over the hump for them, because I know how much it sucks to keep falling an inch short of success.
I don't think its just Howland tho, for whatever reason this team just can't make a clutch shot or sometimes even an open layup. Howland can't do that for them.
I'm also severely disappointed in the admin for seemingly not even TRYING to fix the atmosphere problem that's been going on for 10+ years now. I get we're a rural school in a small town, but that was the case during all of Stansbury's run too and it wasn't ever an excuse back then (or if it was I didn't hear it). I'll fully admit I'm part of the problem tho, former season ticket holder alum that moved out of state and can't get to Starkville very often anymore. Maybe there are too many like me holding back the population to draw crowds from, and the 2000s were an anomaly.
It's very clear whatever is going on with this program is not working. Or maybe it is, but this is the new ceiling. I just don't want to accept perpetual mediocrity as the ceiling.
Howland didn’t win me at all.
I’ve mentioned that Bob Boyd came to mind when the announcement was made & Howland did nothing to sway my thoughts from that direction.
If the Sean Miller rumors become truth, I’ll still be thinking Bob Boyd…
I’ve mentioned that Bob Boyd came to mind when the announcement was made & Howland did nothing to sway my thoughts from that direction.
If the Sean Miller rumors become truth, I’ll still be thinking Bob Boyd…
Same here. I knew his style before we hired him. And I know Sean Miller’s style of play as well. We’d just be changing the coach but keeping the system.
There were many moments of doubt before this, but the moment he fully lost me was February 22, 2020 - loss to a mediocre Texas A&M team that pretty well put the writing on the wall that he was going to miss the tourney with Perry and Woodard. That season was the first real failure in my mind (could argue the loss to Liberty but hard to make too many broad conclusions over one game imo).
That also confirmed to me that this would be who Howland was: a 16-20 win coach who may make the NIT most years but likely wasn’t doing better than that.
That also confirmed to me that this would be who Howland was: a 16-20 win coach who may make the NIT most years but likely wasn’t doing better than that.
Just like Moorhead, the last loss to Tennessee. Living in East Tennessee, it gripes me to no end when we lose to Tennessee. Moorhead's loss in 2019 was unforgivable. Howland's lost last Wednesday was not as big of a surprise but we should have beaten them on our home court.
I have not been fully on board since January 2018. I was understanding with his first two teams, even though a case can be made that they slightly underachieved too. But we went to Oxford in January of Year 3 and dropped a game to an awful Ole Miss team. It moved his record to 1-4 against OM at the time and that started the trend of suffering bad losses to his rival and having very talented rosters that underachieved. And he’s never really been able to break away from that.
Also, the kind of games we’ve been losing this year, go back and rewatch some Year 1 and 2 games with Howland. We’ve lost the same dang way for 7 years. The names on the roster have changed, little else has. At least for the last four years.
Also, the kind of games we’ve been losing this year, go back and rewatch some Year 1 and 2 games with Howland. We’ve lost the same dang way for 7 years. The names on the roster have changed, little else has. At least for the last four years.
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The night they lost to the really bad Texas A&M team a couple of years ago. I think it might have been the Covid canceled season.
There was no defining moment. Not really sure if he lost me even...or ever 'had' me. Its just been a gradual frustration to see the players work hard every game and have it slip away from them in the last 5 minutes. You watch it happen and it just sucks for the players.
If this is his last season, I understand. If they keep him, I will be surprised a bit, but also understand.
I want a better result in the record book, but I dont want better/different player rankings. Howland has recruited pretty well and helped a couple players develop into fringe NBA guys with a handful more playing professionally overseas. We also havent been bad, in spite of what many here claim. We have been good enough to play with everyone in the SEC for 90% of the game- we took UK to OT, we took Bama to the wire and also beat them once, We played Arkansas tight to the end and beat them once, we were close to beating UT, etc etc. The team is solid, but missing a couple key components to make it really good.
I dont want to see regression. Obviously any time you change coaches you run the risk of a bad hire, but if many here think we are a bad team right now, what do they think about Nebraska, Maryland, Oregon State, Utah, Cal, UGA, GT, NC State, Mizzou, BC, etc?
If this is his last season, I understand. If they keep him, I will be surprised a bit, but also understand.
I want a better result in the record book, but I dont want better/different player rankings. Howland has recruited pretty well and helped a couple players develop into fringe NBA guys with a handful more playing professionally overseas. We also havent been bad, in spite of what many here claim. We have been good enough to play with everyone in the SEC for 90% of the game- we took UK to OT, we took Bama to the wire and also beat them once, We played Arkansas tight to the end and beat them once, we were close to beating UT, etc etc. The team is solid, but missing a couple key components to make it really good.
I dont want to see regression. Obviously any time you change coaches you run the risk of a bad hire, but if many here think we are a bad team right now, what do they think about Nebraska, Maryland, Oregon State, Utah, Cal, UGA, GT, NC State, Mizzou, BC, etc?
I never bought in. Year 1 with all the seniors and Newman was worse than it should be. Year 2 we just never seemed to be in sync. Then I repeatedly saw lack of effort, and every time you wanted to believe, we'd drop a bad game. It just never happened. I never thought his style suited MSU. But I guess overall he did his job, he made us decent and now the fanbase is starting to get starved for a winner again.
Truth be known you might say the same thing about Leach, though I haven't seen the lack of effort there.
Truth be known you might say the same thing about Leach, though I haven't seen the lack of effort there.
There was no defining moment. I realized by year 2 that he wasn't what I had expected him to be, and nothing like the old Pitt days when we had some real battles with them. But I guess he didn't completely lose me until sometime last year. Still think it's best to just let him retire, but if he doesn't, I think it's time for Cohen to pull the trigger.
Same here. Never got on board with his offensive strategy. To me it looked like he wanted to recruit talent and let them carry him instead of the other way around. Too much standing around and man on team offense.
This season just kind of confirmed for me that he isn't getting it done, but even more than that, it's just boring basketball to watch. I was admittedly spoiled being in school during our best times in basketball, and I enjoyed the Stans style of play. The Renardo fight was a sad end to an era.
I can't point to a particular "IT" time. It's just been a collaboration of numerous things for a while. The obvious is the predictable extended scoring droughts that happen EVERY game. When other teams go on these droughts, we never seem to put the game away or extend leads. We keep it within reach. When we go on these droughts, it's like both offense and defense both disappear and it's a 15-0 run in 90 seconds.
It also baffles me how every good shooter that shows up to campus somehow gets worse.
I forget who it was in the last few years, but we had a guy that was a high % 3pt shooter coming out of HS, projected to be a big player for us. In an interview with BH he said they changed the shooting motion up once the kid got to campus because his shot motion wouldn't translate to college ball. Now, I understand changing things if you find they don't work. To me, if a kid comes in with a funky shot, yet shoots lights out, I'm gonna let it ride until it's proven to not work. I always go back to baseball (I'm a baseball guy) and the Youkilis scenario. He had a crazy funky stance and approach, but it worked. Heck, if a guy was a 95% FT shooter, but shot underhand, would you make him shoot overhand?
Another thing that gets me is the constant "forgetting to play someone" on the bench that could help us.
I have other gripes, but I'll stop there for time sake.
It also baffles me how every good shooter that shows up to campus somehow gets worse.
I forget who it was in the last few years, but we had a guy that was a high % 3pt shooter coming out of HS, projected to be a big player for us. In an interview with BH he said they changed the shooting motion up once the kid got to campus because his shot motion wouldn't translate to college ball. Now, I understand changing things if you find they don't work. To me, if a kid comes in with a funky shot, yet shoots lights out, I'm gonna let it ride until it's proven to not work. I always go back to baseball (I'm a baseball guy) and the Youkilis scenario. He had a crazy funky stance and approach, but it worked. Heck, if a guy was a 95% FT shooter, but shot underhand, would you make him shoot overhand?
Another thing that gets me is the constant "forgetting to play someone" on the bench that could help us.
I have other gripes, but I'll stop there for time sake.
A few years ago - it’s always been apparent to me that there’s something missing, plus I just hate that style of offense, lack or organization and intent. No thanks.
We weren't going to make it. That's a myth that the pro-Howlanders (which there aren't any left except Bo Bounds) made up at the time because it was convenient.
- Not coaching players to go after opponents strengths and weaknesses during the game (we often have an opponent reach their career high against us, and often let them play over 20 minutes with 4 fouls without fouling them out)
- Coaching style is really baby sitting
- Players play worse under stress not better (seeing Lemonis handle this mental part of baseball really shows that it is part of the game)
- Unexplainable substitutions and time outs - just kills our mojo and flow often, way too often
- Players are not motivated to fight hard enough to win close games (yes wins help but man show some intensity)
- His super positive approach to interviews is great, it really is. Great spokesperson for our university. Coaching is more than just talking positive.
- Not winning a single road game this season really sums up everything, as well as losing at home to Tennessee. This ship seems to be sinking more each week.
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We had a football coach that let his players fight. We fired his *** too.
Most people wouldn't have had a problem had we fired Stansbury after 2011. Or even in Hawaii. Doing it in 2012 was the problem. Had we waited until we tanked in 2013, nobody would have cared either.
The bad losses late in 2020 (Ole Miss, A&M, Carolina) is where I really accepted that this wasn’t working. The fact that team with all the talent it had was not going to make the tournament barring a run in Nashville and getting some help from the bubble was a killer for me.
I don’t really have issues with Howland for years 1-4. I know people hate how long it took for them to rebuild and feel like the 2019 team should’ve accomplished more, and in the moment I was angry too with how it was going. But taking a step back and trying to be more rational, I’m not going to complain about improving each year and getting back to the tournament for the first time in a decade, even with a one-and-done, after the mess he inherited.
But Howland didn’t build off that. 2020 is when it became painfully obvious, to me at least, how much he was wasting talent with his coaching. There’s no debating whether or not that team underachieved significantly. They absolutely did. Now despite this, I understood why he wasn’t going to be fired and can’t say it wasn’t the right decision. But I had no confidence going forward. 2021 was going to be a step back, and from a record and final result standpoint, it actually wasn’t bad. But when you saw how the games played out, you saw the same issues that always plague Howland’s teams.
With all that said, I fully bought in for this year. I was giving it one last go. I convinced myself this would be a fun season, and I definitely tried to get others bought in too. I know how much fan support can impact CBK and desperately wanted to see a packed out Hump with a wild student section again. But in the back of my mind, I definitely knew Howland underachieving was very possible (though I didn’t think it’d be this bad). And now we’re here.
I appreciate Howland for what he’s done. I think he deserves more credit that he’s gotten, and I definitely think he should’ve gotten a better atmosphere at games more often than he did. But at the end of the day, it’s time to move on.
I don’t really have issues with Howland for years 1-4. I know people hate how long it took for them to rebuild and feel like the 2019 team should’ve accomplished more, and in the moment I was angry too with how it was going. But taking a step back and trying to be more rational, I’m not going to complain about improving each year and getting back to the tournament for the first time in a decade, even with a one-and-done, after the mess he inherited.
But Howland didn’t build off that. 2020 is when it became painfully obvious, to me at least, how much he was wasting talent with his coaching. There’s no debating whether or not that team underachieved significantly. They absolutely did. Now despite this, I understood why he wasn’t going to be fired and can’t say it wasn’t the right decision. But I had no confidence going forward. 2021 was going to be a step back, and from a record and final result standpoint, it actually wasn’t bad. But when you saw how the games played out, you saw the same issues that always plague Howland’s teams.
With all that said, I fully bought in for this year. I was giving it one last go. I convinced myself this would be a fun season, and I definitely tried to get others bought in too. I know how much fan support can impact CBK and desperately wanted to see a packed out Hump with a wild student section again. But in the back of my mind, I definitely knew Howland underachieving was very possible (though I didn’t think it’d be this bad). And now we’re here.
I appreciate Howland for what he’s done. I think he deserves more credit that he’s gotten, and I definitely think he should’ve gotten a better atmosphere at games more often than he did. But at the end of the day, it’s time to move on.
Spot on “forgetting to play someone”. I’m not sure the game but he said that once about Robert Woodard about not playing him in the 2nd half when he’d been outstanding in the 1st half. How the heck do you forget!! Guess if your already retired that will happen.
Great question, and like others, I’m not sure that I’ve got a clear answer. It’s been a growing number of red flags over the last 7 years. To list a few…
- Malik Newman drama and quick transfer
- Star-studded 2016 class that frankly turned into a giant bust
- poor development of Nick Weatherspoon
- ongoing reliance on legacy players which resulted in a very underwhelming 2019 class as soon as the well was dry
- tutorgate. I mean, Nick was basically the reason the whole thing blew up, right?
- Liberty
- underwhelming 2020 season when we had incredible talent, yet Howland kept forgetting about Woodard on the bench
- pitiful 2021 season marred by mass exodus at season’s end
- disappointing 2022 season where we’ve got some nice pieces, but it’s like they’re all from a different puzzle
Maybe I’m to blame for setting my expectations too high after Howland came in and immediately started killing the recruiting trail, but at this point, my feelings are that Howland has done what we needed him to do(get us out of the cellar), and now it’s time to move on. It’s time to find someone that can raise our ceiling and bring life back to this dying program
- Malik Newman drama and quick transfer
- Star-studded 2016 class that frankly turned into a giant bust
- poor development of Nick Weatherspoon
- ongoing reliance on legacy players which resulted in a very underwhelming 2019 class as soon as the well was dry
- tutorgate. I mean, Nick was basically the reason the whole thing blew up, right?
- Liberty
- underwhelming 2020 season when we had incredible talent, yet Howland kept forgetting about Woodard on the bench
- pitiful 2021 season marred by mass exodus at season’s end
- disappointing 2022 season where we’ve got some nice pieces, but it’s like they’re all from a different puzzle
Maybe I’m to blame for setting my expectations too high after Howland came in and immediately started killing the recruiting trail, but at this point, my feelings are that Howland has done what we needed him to do(get us out of the cellar), and now it’s time to move on. It’s time to find someone that can raise our ceiling and bring life back to this dying program
I didn't bother turning on last night's game, so I guess it happened sometime last week. Talent level with the added transfers seemed good enough to be a borderline Sweet 16 team. But when you blow multiple chances to get a resume-building win, it's hard to deny there's something wrong at the top.
Add Kentucky. The only requirement I have in the coach we have is that you see in improvement of the team from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. If anything we have regressed.
I was excited when he was hired. I enjoyed his initial two seasons as he was trying to build us to a full enough roster to hold practice.
Then year 3 I saw some flaws that it seemed like he never addressed.
1. Breaking full court pressure and maintaining an offensive strategy.
2. Running an offense with an identity.
3. Slow or never adjusting on defense.
4. Never playing zone defense when you are getting torched on the interior.
The biggest issue is this. Even since year 3, we haven't figured any of these out. How do we not know how to set up an offense to overcome someone simply picking up the ball carrier the entire length of the court. WE get totally out of sync, immediately. I am not even talking about a full court press here. And you could imagine we handle that even worse. We refuse to drive to the basket and kick out for 3. We refuse to run the offense through the 5. We refuse to do anything differently. Same thing game in and out. Same thing season to season. Same faults, same failures.
I am ready for a different coach that has different issues with his coaching and scheme. Seeing this for a decade has been enough. No hope to adjust and excel.
He lost me years ago because what we are witnessing now was telegraphed.
I haven't seen 15mins of us play this year or schedule but if #7 is true, semi-mind-blown. lmao. How do yall watch this **** every week?
I haven't seen 15mins of us play this year or schedule but if #7 is true, semi-mind-blown. lmao. How do yall watch this **** every week?
The only way they had a shot was to get to the championship game. May not have had to win it but they would have needed help to get in.
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