Baseball Gurus...

[willi13]

Had a baseball coach tell me yesterday that the "new" radar guns are different from years past. He said the new ones read speed from release and the old ones read the ball as it crossed the plate. Is this true? If so, Nolan Ryan would be putting up 110 mph numbers!

 

[Russ Wheeler]

Had a baseball coach tell me yesterday that the "new" radar guns are different from years past. He said the new ones read speed from release and the old ones read the ball as it crossed the plate. Is this true? If so, Nolan Ryan would be putting up 110 mph numbers!

Yes, I've also heard that they were very hot, but never heard a reason for it.

 

[NWADawg]

Had a baseball coach tell me yesterday that the "new" radar guns are different from years past. He said the new ones read speed from release and the old ones read the ball as it crossed the plate. Is this true? If so, Nolan Ryan would be putting up 110 mph numbers!

According to google, the baseball slows down around 8 mph from pitchers hand to home plate.

 

[PineGroveBully]

Yes, it’s absolutely true. There is a great documentary on it on Netflix, I think it’s called Fastball, Kevin Costner narrates. They break down all the science. For instance some hitters will say the 4 seam is rising as it gets to the strike zone, which physics says can’t happen. What is actually happening is by the time you’re in college or pros, you would have seen tens of thousands pitches. Over that time your brain has decided how much a pitch drops in 60’6” on average and the hands compensate. The spin rate on the 4 seam keeps in from dropping at nearly the same rate so your brain says the ball is supposed to be here based on release but it’s higher so the brain calculates that the pitch must have risen.

It’s been a cpl years since I watched it but on Nolan, the speed was measured about 2 feet from the plate. Over the years that migrated to to about 3 feet from the rubber. The fastest pitches the last couple years has been Jordan Hicks of the cards, as his fastball is in the 105 range. But measured near the plate it’d be 97-98, whereas they said Nolan who was throwing 100-101. They worked the math back to say that Nolan’s fastball would be in the 109 range.

It’s not as nerdy as I made it sound, it was really enjoyable. And it has a lot of history on the fastball, some interesting stuff on The Big Train Walter Johnson up through Bob Gibson to Aroldis Chapman.

I’m not sure if it’s streaming or not because I watched it on Netflix dvd several years ago.

 

[CochiseCowbell]

That documentary is fantastic. I need to watch it again.

Fastballs are like women: No time for computation, merely reactionary guesses based on previous data.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

Yes, it’s absolutely true. There is a great documentary on it on Netflix, I think it’s called Fastball, Kevin Costner narrates. They break down all the science. For instance some hitters will say the 4 seam is rising as it gets to the strike zone, which physics says can’t happen. What is actually happening is by the time you’re in college or pros, you would have seen tens of thousands pitches. Over that time your brain has decided how much a pitch drops in 60’6” on average and the hands compensate. The spin rate on the 4 seam keeps in from dropping at nearly the same rate so your brain says the ball is supposed to be here based on release but it’s higher so the brain calculates that the pitch must have risen.

It’s been a cpl years since I watched it but on Nolan, the speed was measured about 2 feet from the plate. Over the years that migrated to to about 3 feet from the rubber. The fastest pitches the last couple years has been Jordan Hicks of the cards, as his fastball is in the 105 range. But measured near the plate it’d be 97-98, whereas they said Nolan who was throwing 100-101. They worked the math back to say that Nolan’s fastball would be in the 109 range.

It’s not as nerdy as I made it sound, it was really enjoyable. And it has a lot of history on the fastball, some interesting stuff on The Big Train Walter Johnson up through Bob Gibson to Aroldis Chapman.

I’m not sure if it’s streaming or not because I watched it on Netflix dvd several years ago.

Makes sense that it would be multiple things. The gun is one, and obviously there have been advances in strength/training/conditioning that would allow players to throw harder. In addition, the rise in TJ is directly correlated to the velo era, so there's a price to pay for throwing that hard, even with the strength advances.

So my theory: Yes, players are throwing harder on average, but not as much as the gun indicates, and it's also at the expense of arms.

 

[mdm3045]

I don’t know what’s right or wrong here, but my question is: if it’s reading from release point instead of when it crosses the plate, why does it normally pick up the speed of the catcher’s throw back to the pitcher? It does it at almost every ballpark you go to.

 

[Jeffreauxdawg]

One of my old neighbors was the founder of Stalker Radar guns. We talked about it one night. I think he said you could add about 5 MPH to the old numbers, not much more. They actually measured the speed of the ball 10' in front of home plate back in the 80's and 90's. When I talked to Stan he said it was now measured about 10' from the mound. If you lose 8-10% from release to the plate I would imagine you probably lose most of that in the last 10-20 feet, drag coefficients and all... Maybe a freshly minted PE could do some calculations for us.**

For any of you non baseball nerds, read up on Steve Dalkowski. He was a career minor leaguer for the Orioles that Cal Ripken Sr and Earl Weaver said threw harder than Nolan Ryan without question. He was the inspiration for Nuke LaLoosh in Bull Durham as writer/director Ron Shelton came up in the Orioles system right after Dalko. Ted Williams faced him in Spring Training and said he threw harder than anyone, even Feller and he wouldn't hit against him again. Dalko was a 5"-10" 175 lb lefty that threw max effort and was apparently wild as hell. One of my favorite stat lines in history:

"At Kingsport on Aug. 31, 1957, he struck out 24 Bluefield hitters in a single minor league game—and lost, 8-4! He also issued 18 walks in that game, hit four very unlucky guys and threw six wild pitches."

 

[Drebin]

Yes, it’s absolutely true. There is a great documentary on it on Netflix, I think it’s called Fastball, Kevin Costner narrates. They break down all the science. For instance some hitters will say the 4 seam is rising as it gets to the strike zone, which physics says can’t happen. What is actually happening is by the time you’re in college or pros, you would have seen tens of thousands pitches. Over that time your brain has decided how much a pitch drops in 60’6” on average and the hands compensate. The spin rate on the 4 seam keeps in from dropping at nearly the same rate so your brain says the ball is supposed to be here based on release but it’s higher so the brain calculates that the pitch must have risen.

It’s been a cpl years since I watched it but on Nolan, the speed was measured about 2 feet from the plate. Over the years that migrated to to about 3 feet from the rubber. The fastest pitches the last couple years has been Jordan Hicks of the cards, as his fastball is in the 105 range. But measured near the plate it’d be 97-98, whereas they said Nolan who was throwing 100-101. They worked the math back to say that Nolan’s fastball would be in the 109 range.

It’s not as nerdy as I made it sound, it was really enjoyable. And it has a lot of history on the fastball, some interesting stuff on The Big Train Walter Johnson up through Bob Gibson to Aroldis Chapman.

I’m not sure if it’s streaming or not because I watched it on Netflix dvd several years ago.

I really enjoy stuff like this.

I do have to admit, there's no way I believe Ryan was throwing 109. He was definitely a unicorn in his era, but the legend has taken a life of its own since he's been retired. If he was doing it then, there would be people doing it now with all of the advanced training and specialization going on in the game.

 

[mcdawg22]

I really enjoy stuff like this.

I do have to admit, there's no way I believe Ryan was throwing 109. He was definitely a unicorn in his era, but the legend has taken a life of its own since he's been retired. If he was doing it then, there would be people doing it now with all of the advanced training and specialization going on in the game.

The dude threw 235 pitches in a game, I don’t put anything past him.

 

[anon1787432961]

I would think they measure it from the time it leaves the pitchers hand to the time the batter has to react to it, which is fractions of a second. Which is why batting requires better than average eye sight.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

This is absolutely the truth. ^^^^^

It covers even the earliest attempts to measure speed of pitches. This documentary is pure science and math and not subject to opinions and feelings.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

I really enjoy stuff like this.

I do have to admit, there's no way I believe Ryan was throwing 109. He was definitely a unicorn in his era, but the legend has taken a life of its own since he's been retired. If he was doing it then, there would be people doing it now with all of the advanced training and specialization going on in the game.

No, but he threw 102. He was just one of those natural talents. The reason most today can't do that is because they don't have that talent. Sure you can add velocity with all our training and such, but only as far as your talent allows. And again, you blow out shoulders and elbows in the process.

The day is coming where command and location will override this velo ******** again. Some owner will figure it out, invest in those guys, and then win a title. Then it will cycle back to the great days of the 80s and 90s, then have a strike and start over again.

 

[Go Budaw]

Can someone explain to me in simple terms why the clocked position of the pitch on a radar gun would change from “close to the hitter” to “far away from the hitter”? That just seems like a nonsensical thing to do. Seems like it’s far more relevant what the speed is right before the bat contacts the ball than it is what the speed is right after release from the pitcher’s hand. Numerous physics-related things related to the pitch can cause the ball to slow down (or not) over that 60-foot distance, including air density, humidity, spin rate / direction, etc.

 

[PineGroveBully]

That’s what is so spectacular about NR. He was just a physical specimen. In the days before modern training with all the nutrition players today benefit from, he was still throwing no-hitters in his mid 40’s. The human body, particularly the shoulder and elbow, was not designed to do that. He was a freak, no two ways about it. Robin Ventura approves this post.

 

[PirateDawg]

Because the accuracy of the equipment is so much better

If you watch golf They will tell you the exit velocity of the ball, the club head speed when they hit the ball, the apex of the ball's travel etc. I've noticed the comments about the speed of the baseball when a batter hits a HR. I guess they are monitoring everything with guns now.

Can someone explain to me in simple terms why the clocked position of the pitch on a radar gun would change from “close to the hitter” to “far away from the hitter”? That just seems like a nonsensical thing to do. It’s far more relevant what the speed is right before the bat contacts the ball than it is what the speed is right after release from the pitcher’s hand. Numerous physics-related things related to the pitch can cause the ball to slow down (or not) over that 60-foot distance, including air density, humidity, spin rate / direction, etc.

 

[Jeffreauxdawg]

I imagine in the old days the idea was along the lines of your thinking. But now, more accurately in my mind, its about what speed is the ball at when a batter is making a decision to swing or not.

In MLB the average pitcher is releasing the ball 54' or so from home plate. The best hitters need to start their swing when the ball is 30-25' from home. They say the first 7-10' after release is identifying the baseball exists and left the pitcher's hand. So the entire decision tree on pitch ID, projected location, and whether or not to swing happens between 45' and 30' feet in front of the plate for the best hitters in the world. Fascinating.

View attachment 20190

If that's the case, I would guess what the ball is doing as it enters that zone is more important than after leaving the zone. Shortening the decision window would be the ultimate value of velocity. The ball doing something unexpected after the decision window probably has a lot more to do with spin rates, arm angles, grip, and other factors.

The cool stuff is the things pitchers do to shorten the decision window that don't involve velocity. Hiding the ball from the batter's eye for a longer period of time by arm action can have the same effect on the decision window as adding 4-5 MPH to the fastball. Really fun stuff.

 

[FISHDAWG]

I really enjoy stuff like this.

I do have to admit, there's no way I believe Ryan was throwing 109. He was definitely a unicorn in his era, but the legend has taken a life of its own since he's been retired. If he was doing it then, there would be people doing it now with all of the advanced training and specialization going on in the game.

I've seen him pitch several times and with every pitch there was a deep grunt ... that grunt could be heard if you were sitting behind the plate or if you were sitting down the right field foul line ... it would go something like GRRUUUUNT then ... POWWW as the ball hit the mitt. No radar needed to know that was some fast #$%& ... and that was then - before there was a legend to take a life of it's own ..... 109 mph doesn't sound unreasonable to me

 

[Go Budaw]

I imagine in the old days the idea was along the lines of your thinking. But now, more accurately in my mind, its about what speed is the ball at when a batter is making a decision to swing or not.

In MLB the average pitcher is releasing the ball 54' or so from home plate. The best hitters need to start their swing when the ball is 30-25' from home. They say the first 7-10' after release is identifying the baseball exists and left the pitcher's hand. So the entire decision tree on pitch ID, projected location, and whether or not to swing happens between 45' and 30' feet in front of the plate for the best hitters in the world. Fascinating.

View attachment 20190

If that's the case, I would guess what the ball is doing as it enters that zone is more important than after leaving the zone. Shortening the decision window would be the ultimate value of velocity. The ball doing something unexpected after the decision window probably has a lot more to do with spin rates, arm angles, grip, and other factors.

The cool stuff is the things pitchers do to shorten the decision window that don't involve velocity. Hiding the ball from the batter's eye for a longer period of time by arm action can have the same effect on the decision window as adding 4-5 MPH to the fastball. Really fun stuff.

That’s a really good explanation. Thanks!

 

[thekimmer]

I agree with this....

If you watch golf They will tell you the exit velocity of the ball, the club head speed when they hit the ball, the apex of the ball's travel etc. I've noticed the comments about the speed of the baseball when a batter hits a HR. I guess they are monitoring everything with guns now.

Somebody said the guns today are 'hotter', but to me it would make sense that they are more accurate. Also, as today we don't just measure speed we have spin rates and all kinds of analytics because just simply throwing hard is not enough. A straight line 100 MPH belt high fastball is going to leave the yard at about that same speed.

The argument seems to be comparing today's gun speeds on the scoreboard with 30 years ago but ultimately it doesn't matter. The effectiveness of a pitcher is measured by the scoreboard not the radar gun or high-speed camera. These are just tools to measure potential or progress.

 

[oxfordrebel22]

Yes, it’s absolutely true. There is a great documentary on it on Netflix, I think it’s called Fastball, Kevin Costner narrates. They break down all the science. For instance some hitters will say the 4 seam is rising as it gets to the strike zone, which physics says can’t happen. What is actually happening is by the time you’re in college or pros, you would have seen tens of thousands pitches. Over that time your brain has decided how much a pitch drops in 60’6” on average and the hands compensate. The spin rate on the 4 seam keeps in from dropping at nearly the same rate so your brain says the ball is supposed to be here based on release but it’s higher so the brain calculates that the pitch must have risen.

It’s been a cpl years since I watched it but on Nolan, the speed was measured about 2 feet from the plate. Over the years that migrated to to about 3 feet from the rubber. The fastest pitches the last couple years has been Jordan Hicks of the cards, as his fastball is in the 105 range. But measured near the plate it’d be 97-98, whereas they said Nolan who was throwing 100-101. They worked the math back to say that Nolan’s fastball would be in the 109 range.

It’s not as nerdy as I made it sound, it was really enjoyable. And it has a lot of history on the fastball, some interesting stuff on The Big Train Walter Johnson up through Bob Gibson to Aroldis Chapman.

I’m not sure if it’s streaming or not because I watched it on Netflix dvd several years ago.

I had never heard of this but it sounds fascinating. I’ll have to check it out. Thanks for the tip.

 

[oxfordrebel22]

I really enjoy stuff like this.

I do have to admit, there's no way I believe Ryan was throwing 109. He was definitely a unicorn in his era, but the legend has taken a life of its own since he's been retired. If he was doing it then, there would be people doing it now with all of the advanced training and specialization going on in the game.

You said it better than I could have. I think Nolan Ryan was a freak, a legend, and all that. Ain’t no way he was throwing 109 20 years ago and no one since has come close. It’s just not plausible. It’s kinda like the Bob Gibson HR that went 700 feet. I’m sure it was a bomb, but the damn thing didn’t go 700 feet.

But, Wes Clarke of SC hit a HR over my head in LF in Oxford last weekend that may be 700 feet by the time I tell my grandkids about it.

 

[oxfordrebel22]

The dude threw 235 pitches in a game, I don’t put anything past him.

Was Mike Bianco his pitching coach?

 

[Dawg1979]

Nolan Ryan's first pitch at 66 years old was clocked at 85 mph a few years ago. when he was in prime, i'd believe he could throw 109.

 

[bruiser.sixpack]

Had a baseball coach tell me yesterday that the "new" radar guns are different from years past. He said the new ones read speed from release and the old ones read the ball as it crossed the plate. Is this true? If so, Nolan Ryan would be putting up 110 mph numbers!

Wait! Are you saying the Olshan Guy was a Basketball Pitcher?

 

[Crazy Cotton]

Can you imagine what Sidd Finch's Tibetan fastball would have clocked with the new setup?

 

[Drebin]

No, but he threw 102. He was just one of those natural talents. The reason most today can't do that is because they don't have that talent. Sure you can add velocity with all our training and such, but only as far as your talent allows. And again, you blow out shoulders and elbows in the process.

The day is coming where command and location will override this velo ******** again. Some owner will figure it out, invest in those guys, and then win a title. Then it will cycle back to the great days of the 80s and 90s, then have a strike and start over again.

Every major league team has at least one guy in their pen that can throw it 100 now. Half of the teams have a guy that can touch 102. A helluva lot more guys throw like Ryan today than players did in his era. Guys are more talented than ever, and they've taken it to the next level with spin rates and these explosive sliders they're throwing. Pitching used to be an art form. Now it's brute power. And I don't think we'll ever go back to the old way of doing things because there's too much specialization and analytical BS driving it.

I find it interesting that you talk about those days of command and location coming back. Those days aren't coming back until we get rid of pitch counts and let guys work through trouble and learn how to pitch. Nowadays when a guy gets in trouble, teams just go into the pen and bring in a guy to go max effort for one inning.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

Yes, it’s absolutely true. There is a great documentary on it on Netflix, I think it’s called Fastball, Kevin Costner narrates. They break down all the science. For instance some hitters will say the 4 seam is rising as it gets to the strike zone, which physics says can’t happen. What is actually happening is by the time you’re in college or pros, you would have seen tens of thousands pitches. Over that time your brain has decided how much a pitch drops in 60’6” on average and the hands compensate. The spin rate on the 4 seam keeps in from dropping at nearly the same rate so your brain says the ball is supposed to be here based on release but it’s higher so the brain calculates that the pitch must have risen.

It’s been a cpl years since I watched it but on Nolan, the speed was measured about 2 feet from the plate. Over the years that migrated to to about 3 feet from the rubber. The fastest pitches the last couple years has been Jordan Hicks of the cards, as his fastball is in the 105 range. But measured near the plate it’d be 97-98, whereas they said Nolan who was throwing 100-101. They worked the math back to say that Nolan’s fastball would be in the 109 range.

It’s not as nerdy as I made it sound, it was really enjoyable. And it has a lot of history on the fastball, some interesting stuff on The Big Train Walter Johnson up through Bob Gibson to Aroldis Chapman.

I’m not sure if it’s streaming or not because I watched it on Netflix dvd several years ago.

This is all solid information BUT... what does Engie say about all of this?

*Asking for a friend

 

[Go Budaw]

A lot of things about Ryan’s career are just fascinating to me.

- The dude was a starting pitcher in the show from 1966 until 1993. That’s just stupid.

- Somehow, he was only an All-Star 8 times in 27 seasons. Seems like a very low number, given his overall talent and longevity. And one of those 8 times was a season that he finished 10-12 with the 3rd worst ERA of his career. By contrast, Clayton Kershaw has already been named an All-Star 8 times in just 13 seasons.

- Threw 7 no-hitters. Again, just stupid.

- Once had a season with a record of 22-16 (38 total decisions!) where he threw 332 innings. For you math whizzes out there, that’s an average of 8.73 innings per start, over almost 40 ballgames. Guess they don’t make em like they used to....

- Number retired by 3 different teams.

 

[G-Dawg]

Would you want a staff full of Nolan Ryans or Greg Madduxes?

I loved them both. I'm gonna cheat and say give me a Nolan Ryan on Day 1 and a Greg Maddux on Day 2.

 

[Go Budaw]

One of my old neighbors was the founder of Stalker Radar guns. We talked about it one night. I think he said you could add about 5 MPH to the old numbers, not much more. They actually measured the speed of the ball 10' in front of home plate back in the 80's and 90's. When I talked to Stan he said it was now measured about 10' from the mound. If you lose 8-10% from release to the plate I would imagine you probably lose most of that in the last 10-20 feet, drag coefficients and all... Maybe a freshly minted PE could do some calculations for us.**

For any of you non baseball nerds, read up on Steve Dalkowski. He was a career minor leaguer for the Orioles that Cal Ripken Sr and Earl Weaver said threw harder than Nolan Ryan without question. He was the inspiration for Nuke LaLoosh in Bull Durham as writer/director Ron Shelton came up in the Orioles system right after Dalko. Ted Williams faced him in Spring Training and said he threw harder than anyone, even Feller and he wouldn't hit against him again. Dalko was a 5"-10" 175 lb lefty that threw max effort and was apparently wild as hell. One of my favorite stat lines in history:

"At Kingsport on Aug. 31, 1957, he struck out 24 Bluefield hitters in a single minor league game—and lost, 8-4! He also issued 18 walks in that game, hit four very unlucky guys and threw six wild pitches."

Dalkowski actually died of COVID 19 last year...was one of the many nursing home victims in Connecticut in the first wave of March / April 2020.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

Every major league team has at least one guy in their pen that can throw it 100 now. Half of the teams have a guy that can touch 102. A helluva lot more guys throw like Ryan today than players did in his era. Guys are more talented than ever, and they've taken it to the next level with spin rates and these explosive sliders they're throwing. Pitching used to be an art form. Now it's brute power. And I don't think we'll ever go back to the old way of doing things because there's too much specialization and analytical BS driving it.

I find it interesting that you talk about those days of command and location coming back. Those days aren't coming back until we get rid of pitch counts and let guys work through trouble and learn how to pitch. Nowadays when a guy gets in trouble, teams just go into the pen and bring in a guy to go max effort for one inning.

If they are throwing 100-102 on the new guns, then it's 93-95 on the old ones (which compares to Nolan's 102). Though again, I do agree that in general guys are throwing harder, which I said above a couple of times. And along with that comes injury. I mean you just said it - brute power.

I have no idea if it ever comes back across the board. But I expect a few teams to try and zig while others are zagging. I actually do think we agree on the reality of this velo situation, we just disagree how if these are good things. But things are always changing.

 

[Drebin]

So you think Nolan Ryan was throwing 109 if they were using the new guns?

Don't be that guy.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

So you think Nolan Ryan was throwing 109 if they were using the new guns?

Don't be that guy.

Very simple explanations are in this thread. Go back and read Pine Grove Bully's post.

 

[Drebin]

Very simple explanations are in this thread. Go back and read Pine Grove Bully's post.

I read it. I agree that there are differences. I don't agree that those differences exceed 7 mph. And I don't believe Nolan Ryan would have hit 109. If so, it would have been done since.

 

[PineGroveBully]

Fat thumbed you a downvote, my bad. I actually thought about Maddux when I made the post. Don’t call me a boomer because I’m 38 and a half but I remember Andy Griffith’s saying, “there’s more than one way to pluck a buzzard.” I’ve never had desire to know the first way to pluck a buzzard, but the quote works here. Both are physical specimens in totally different way. To have both pitched in 3-4 decades with no major arm injuries is just unheard of these days. But with Maddux he was kinda like Mariano Rivera, you knew what pitch was coming and it didn’t matter. I don’t know that there has been a pitcher since that have even approached his command. Maddux was a modern day surgeon, but that gives to much credit to a lot of surgeons.

You give me one game to win and I choose Maddux 75% of the time (though off that staff I take Smoltz all day, much better big game pitcher), but if I needed some one get one batter, I’m taking the Express.

I remember the saying a lot of Braves fans had, “close only counts in hand grenades, horse shoes, and Greg Maddux two seam fastballs”