Pitching Moves

[Zschurch]

There were certainly plenty of things that we could have done better today to win this game on the field. We've got to play better defense and we have some serious liabilities in the lineup. However, we can plug some of those holes and hopefully improve before the postseason. Those things are part of the game and these are young guys that are learning and getting better.

What really concerns me more than the play on the field is the way the coaches are managing the pitching staff. Today we have a true freshman having an incredible outing against the #2 team in the country with a great lineup. I never expected him to get us more than 5 innings. He gets to over 80 pitches, we're in the heart of the order, and after a hit and a walk we have a mound visit. What's the upside to leaving him in? We've got Harding, a lefty warmed up. Batter is a lefty who has been hot. The options are leave in a tired true freshman or go to the fresh lefty who has the matchup advantage.

Once again, we leave Fristoe in until he gives up major damage. The games that we lose seem to always involve leaving our starters in until it's darn clear that they need to come out, and then we give them two more batters to make sure.

Is Lemonis making the calls? I'd really like to know what's going through his head in these situations. We can't manage games like this in the postseason.

 

[Requiem For A Dawg]

Lemonis said after the game that his splits were much better against left handlers so they decided to keep Fristoe in rather than bring the lefty Harding in.

Sometimes you gotta throw the stats out the window and coach with what the flow of the game is telling you. It’s easy to be a coach in hindsight though.

I thought for sure we were about to pull Fristoe with as long as Foxhall was taking on that mound visit. Also, this was Fristoe’s second longest outing besides Kent State. Not to mention he just had given up a hit and a 4 pitch walk. I didn’t think there was any chance he was staying in to face that lefty with Hootie in the pen, but I was wrong.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

They’ve managed it about as well as can be expected. Yeah they goofed up today but last night was pretty genius. This is the regular season, you have to give guys a chance to battle a d find out what they can do. They won’t make this move in the postseason.

Lemonis is a damn good coach. If he can recruit as well as he coaches (and he’s off to a great start), we will eventually get that elusive natty.

 

[messageboardsuperhero]

They’ve managed it about as well as can be expected. Yeah they goofed up today but last night was pretty genius. This is the regular season, you have to give guys a chance to battle a d find out what they can do. They won’t make this move in the postseason.

Lemonis is a damn good coach. If he can recruit as well as he coaches (and he’s off to a great start), we will eventually get that elusive natty.

Lemonis has impressed me with a lot of his in game decisions as well as mid season lineup adjustments in the two years he’s been here. Today was not his or Foxhall’s finest hour, but on the whole, Lemonis has pushed the right buttons more times than not.

 

[Go Budaw]

Lemonis said after the game that his splits were much better against left handlers so they decided to keep Fristoe in rather than bring the lefty Harding in.

Sometimes you gotta throw the stats out the window and coach with what the flow of the game is telling you. It’s easy to be a coach in hindsight though.

I thought for sure we were about to pull Fristoe with as long as Foxhall was taking on that mound visit. Also, this was Fristoe’s second longest outing besides Kent State. Not to mention he just had given up a hit and a 4 pitch walk. I didn’t think there was any chance he was staying in to face that lefty with Hootie in the pen, but I was wrong.

Exactly. Dude had just hit one 400 ft to dead center in his last AB for a triple. It was pretty obvious what was going to happen if Fristoe stayed in. And even if its a left-right splits situation, you’ve gotta have both a LH arm and a RH arm warming up. Simply was way too critical of a moment in the game to be forced by the analytics to leave in a freshmen starter for the 3rd time through the order against possibly their best hitter.

 

[Drebin]

Lemonis said after the game that his splits were much better against left handlers so they decided to keep Fristoe in rather than bring the lefty Harding in.

Sometimes you gotta throw the stats out the window and coach with what the flow of the game is telling you. It’s easy to be a coach in hindsight though.

I thought for sure we were about to pull Fristoe with as long as Foxhall was taking on that mound visit. Also, this was Fristoe’s second longest outing besides Kent State. Not to mention he just had given up a hit and a 4 pitch walk. I didn’t think there was any chance he was staying in to face that lefty with Hootie in the pen, but I was wrong.

Friday night we left Mac in there too long - it was clear he had lost his command. It ended up hurting us.

Saturday, we burned Sims in a game with a six run lead - it would've been nice to have him Sunday.

Sunday, we left Fristoe in there too long.

Pitching decisions are questionable at times, but if they had worked out, we'd all be praising Lemonis for them. He went with what he thought was right at the time.

Our bigger issues are infield defense and putting the bat on the ball.

 

[MagnificentBastard]

The batter was a switch hitter. You can still make the argument Fristoe needed to be pulled. But you can't claim we need to bring in a lefthander. Lemonis wanted to keep the batter on the left side for whatever reason. In hindsight we could have brought in another righthander. This is probably where we really missed not having Brandon Smith available this weekend.

 

[KingBarkus]

The batter was a switch hitter. You can still make the argument Fristoe needed to be pulled. But you can't claim we need to bring in a lefthander. Lemonis wanted to keep the batter on the left side for whatever reason. In hindsight we could have brought in another righthander. This is probably where we really missed not having Brandon Smith available this weekend.

I don't understand not bringing in Harding. The guy had crushed a Fristoe pitch earlier, was deep in the pitch count, and Harding has a great change-up to RH batters. Give the Vandy player a different look. What does Harding do when he gets in against a RH batter? Change-up and a SO. Lemonis and the PC botched the decision. I am of the mind you have to play these types of games like Game 7's. There's a good chance we don't win even after Vandy took a 1-run lead, but next to impossible getting down by 3.

 

[patdog]

Lemonis managed like the only reliever he trusted was Sims. Which seems odd. I still think you don't bring in Sims unless the tying run is at least on deck. But it did work out Saturday. Who knows if having him Sunday would have made a difference? Would he have still left Fristoe out for that last batter?

But baseball managers are the easiest to criticize of any sport. They have to make so many decisions and it's so obvious whether it worked or not. Even the best managers are going to make dozens of mistakes every season.

 

[Drebin]

Lemonis managed like the only reliever he trusted was Sims. Which seems odd. I still think you don't bring in Sims unless the tying run is at least on deck. But it did work out Saturday. Who knows if having him Sunday would have made a difference? Would he have still left Fristoe out for that last batter?

But baseball managers are the easiest to criticize of any sport. They have to make so many decisions and it's so obvious whether it worked or not. Even the best managers are going to make dozens of mistakes every season.

Managers outsmart themselves with all of the analytics. I think you have to go with your gut more if you're a real baseball guy. For me, yeah, maybe the splits say don't bring in the lefty and turn the guy around in that spot. But he had just hit a triple off the wall in his last at bat and was comfortable. Analytics may have said leave in the righty there, but gut says you gotta go get him.

 

[Drebin]

I don't understand not bringing in Harding. The guy had crushed a Fristoe pitch earlier, was deep in the pitch count, and Harding has a great change-up to RH batters. Give the Vandy player a different look. What does Harding do when he gets in against a RH batter? Change-up and a SO. Lemonis and the PC botched the decision. I am of the mind you have to play these types of games like Game 7's. There's a good chance we don't win even after Vandy took a 1-run lead, but next to impossible getting down by 3.

The old-school book on switch hitters is to turn them around late in a game if they've had two or three at bats from one side. Maybe he rakes from the right side....but considering he just missed a HR from the left side against the same pitcher in his last at-bat....if I'm the manager, I bring in Harding in that spot 100 out of 100 times, metrics be damned. You can't outsmart yourself when you have a two run lead against the #2 team in the country on the road. There's too much at stake.

 

[Go Budaw]

Lemonis managed like the only reliever he trusted was Sims. Which seems odd. I still think you don't bring in Sims unless the tying run is at least on deck. But it did work out Saturday. Who knows if having him Sunday would have made a difference? Would he have still left Fristoe out for that last batter?

But baseball managers are the easiest to criticize of any sport. They have to make so many decisions and it's so obvious whether it worked or not. Even the best managers are going to make dozens of mistakes every season.

Saturday was peculiar for sure. Especially considering that Sims entered with a 6-run lead and still ended up letting the tying run come to the plate with two runners in scoring position. I mean who else in our bullpen couldn’t have done that or better against the first few hitters? Like others said, he wasn’t really dialed in until the pressure got turned up, which is a classic shutdown closer phenomenon. We saw the same thing with Holder on a few occasions. Could have been a good time to let Stinnett, Tullar, etc. come in and try to get some key outs on a short leash, and then go to Sims if they failed to do so because you’d still have a semi-comfortable lead.

On the flip side, if we went to somebody like Harding on Saturday expecting him to get an inning or two, he wouldn’t have been available on Sunday and maybe there is even more pressure on Fristoe to go a little deeper. So there are a lot of moving parts to consider. But it is hard to imagine that our bullpen could have as many reliable arms as we do, yet no one else besides our closer is trusted with a 6-run lead in the 7th inning on Saturday.

 

[johnson86-1]

Saturday was peculiar for sure. Especially considering that Sims entered with a 6-run lead and still ended up letting the tying run come to the plate with two runners in scoring position. I mean who else in our bullpen couldn’t have done that or better against the first few hitters? Like others said, he wasn’t really dialed in until the pressure got turned up, which is a classic shutdown closer phenomenon. We saw the same thing with Holder on a few occasions. Could have been a good time to let Stinnett, Tullar, etc. come in and try to get some key outs on a short leash, and then go to Sims if they failed to do so because you’d still have a semi-comfortable lead.

On the flip side, if we went to somebody like Harding on Saturday expecting him to get an inning or two, he wouldn’t have been available on Sunday and maybe there is even more pressure on Fristoe to go a little deeper. So there are a lot of moving parts to consider. But it is hard to imagine that our bullpen could have as many reliable arms as we do, yet no one else besides our closer is trusted with a 6-run lead in the 7th inning on Saturday.

There are arguments both ways, but I am fine with using Sims in that situation. We are playing against a pitcher that has been damn near unbeatable. On Sunday, we are facing what is supposed to be a much more beatable pitcher and we are supposed to feel good about our 3rd starter and our BP depth. I don't have a problem with doing what we think is necessary to get the W now and letting the chips fall where they may on Sunday. If we were in a 3 game post season series, I think it'd be much harder to argue against your approach. For the regular season, increasing your chances of avoiding the catastrophe(which would be a sweep) at the expense of decreasing your chances of winning the series is probably ok.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

The old-school book on switch hitters is to turn them around late in a game if they've had two or three at bats from one side. Maybe he rakes from the right side....but considering he just missed a HR from the left side against the same pitcher in his last at-bat....if I'm the manager, I bring in Harding in that spot 100 out of 100 times, metrics be damned. You can't outsmart yourself when you have a two run lead against the #2 team in the country on the road. There's too much at stake.

It's in the middle. To ignore analytics/stats is not smart, but to depend on them is also not smart. We all agree they did the wrong thing Sunday.

 

[MSUDC11]

To me it was simply a gamble that didn’t work out. It’s easy to say “wrong move” because they hit the homer, in the moment I’m not sure the decision was super obvious like some are making it out to be. I can certainly see both sides of the coin, though. There were warning signs, but I also think Fristoe has shown the ability to work through/out of trouble and then the analytics piece as well.

As has been said, the bigger issue was us leaving the door cracked open in the early innings. We probably should’ve been up at least 5-0 or 6-0 at that moment of the game, but at 4-2 you’re within the margin of error where one or two things not going right can have you trailing suddenly. I still trust Lemonis to push the right buttons, he gets it right way more often than not.

 

[Hanmudog]

Obviously not pulling Fristoe was the turning point but stranding all those runners in the first few innings is what ultimately lost us the game. Should have been up alot more than 4-0.

 

[Go Budaw]

There are arguments both ways, but I am fine with using Sims in that situation. We are playing against a pitcher that has been damn near unbeatable. On Sunday, we are facing what is supposed to be a much more beatable pitcher and we are supposed to feel good about our 3rd starter and our BP depth. I don't have a problem with doing what we think is necessary to get the W now and letting the chips fall where they may on Sunday. If we were in a 3 game post season series, I think it'd be much harder to argue against your approach. For the regular season, increasing your chances of avoiding the catastrophe(which would be a sweep) at the expense of decreasing your chances of winning the series is probably ok.

What unbeatable pitcher were we up against? Leiter had already been out of the game for multiple innings when that move was made.

 

[Zschurch]

I didn't love bringing in Sims on Saturday but I'm ok with it- you could have never sniffed a lead on Sunday and then he never gets a meaningful inning. When you're beating a team like Vandy on a day that Jack Leiter throws, you slam that door shut and don't let them back in. I'm glad we got our sole win this weekend against him rather than on Sunday- it shows we can beat anybody.

I'm a Lemonis fan and of course he's got more data to base his decision on that I do on my couch. Heck, the broadcast rarely shows when we get somebody up in the pen (Side note- I wish that TV broadcasts kept us more updated with bullpen activity), so who knows if anyone was even ready to come in on Sunday in the 4th.

That said, Fristoe has 10 starts. He's thrown 4 innings or less in 7/10 of those games. He threw 6 against Kent State, 5 against UK, and 4.1 yesterday.

If I'm coaching against the #2 team in the country in a series deciding rubber match with Fristoe's track record and a talented bullpen I've got options ready to go when that fourth inning starts and I'm not going to be hesitant to use them. This isn't the game to let a player fight through adversity. You've got other weekends to run that experiment (which has value).

If Fristoe comes out in the fourth and you get a good relief appearance, he gets a huge mental confidence boost knowing that he starting against #2 team and pitched well enough to win (which he did). Now he probably feels like he lost the lead and the game, which I don't put on him.

To me, it comes down to leaving a tired true freshman in the game who doesn't have a track record of going deep into games versus going to Harding, Tepper, Stinnett, Price etc who haven't been seen yet, PLUS they're fresh.

 

[Drebin]

I didn't love bringing in Sims on Saturday but I'm ok with it- you could have never sniffed a lead on Sunday and then he never gets a meaningful inning. When you're beating a team like Vandy on a day that Jack Leiter throws, you slam that door shut and don't let them back in. I'm glad we got our sole win this weekend against him rather than on Sunday- it shows we can beat anybody.

I'm a Lemonis fan and of course he's got more data to base his decision on that I do on my couch. Heck, the broadcast rarely shows when we get somebody up in the pen (Side note- I wish that TV broadcasts kept us more updated with bullpen activity), so who knows if anyone was even ready to come in on Sunday in the 4th.

That said, Fristoe has 10 starts. He's thrown 4 innings or less in 7/10 of those games. He threw 6 against Kent State, 5 against UK, and 4.1 yesterday.

If I'm coaching against the #2 team in the country in a series deciding rubber match with Fristoe's track record and a talented bullpen I've got options ready to go when that fourth inning starts and I'm not going to be hesitant to use them. This isn't the game to let a player fight through adversity. You've got other weekends to run that experiment (which has value).

If Fristoe comes out in the fourth and you get a good relief appearance, he gets a huge mental confidence boost knowing that he starting against #2 team and pitched well enough to win (which he did). Now he probably feels like he lost the lead and the game, which I don't put on him.

To me, it comes down to leaving a tired true freshman in the game who doesn't have a track record of going deep into games versus going to Harding, Tepper, Stinnett, Price etc who haven't been seen yet, PLUS they're fresh.

I agree with everything you said here. I'd also add the data point that once Fristoe got runners on late, you can't let him face Carter Young in that situation knowing he almost took you yard in the last at bat. The decision isn't just stick with Fristoe after 4 or pull him after 4, it's what do you do when you stick with him and he has a tough matchup in a tough spot.

I generally don't question moves like this because Lemonis knows his guys far better than we do. But going to the pen for that Carter Young at bat was the obvious choice there. If Lemonis had it to do over, I'm sure he would agree.

 

[Drebin]

To me it was simply a gamble that didn’t work out. It’s easy to say “wrong move” because they hit the homer, in the moment I’m not sure the decision was super obvious like some are making it out to be. I can certainly see both sides of the coin, though. There were warning signs, but I also think Fristoe has shown the ability to work through/out of trouble and then the analytics piece as well.

As has been said, the bigger issue was us leaving the door cracked open in the early innings. We probably should’ve been up at least 5-0 or 6-0 at that moment of the game, but at 4-2 you’re within the margin of error where one or two things not going right can have you trailing suddenly. I still trust Lemonis to push the right buttons, he gets it right way more often than not.

It wouldn't have been super obvious if Fristoe had been facing that guy for the first time. But the guy was comfortable in that at bat. He almost left the yard against him the inning prior. I'm sure Fristoe would tell you that he wanted the ball in that situation, and I know it would be tremendous in his growth as a player to be able to get that guy and get out of the inning with the lead. But this wasn't some throwaway late-season game against Missouri. This was on the road at #2 Vandy and you had their asses beat. You know their version of Landon Sims is good to go for three innings. You gotta do what you gotta do there to keep the lead.

 

[johnson86-1]

What unbeatable pitcher were we up against? Leiter had already been out of the game for multiple innings when that move was made.

Well holy ****. We weren't playing against any pitcher when I wrote that at 10:36 this morning, so if you are going to nitpick over verb tenses, that'd probably be the place to start.

 

[57stratdawg]

Leaving him in was the wrong move. There's no question about it.

 

[MSUDC11]

I agree with everything you said here. I'd also add the data point that once Fristoe got runners on late, you can't let him face Carter Young in that situation knowing he almost took you yard in the last at bat. The decision isn't just stick with Fristoe after 4 or pull him after 4, it's what do you do when you stick with him and he has a tough matchup in a tough spot.

I generally don't question moves like this because Lemonis knows his guys far better than we do. But going to the pen for that Carter Young at bat was the obvious choice there. If Lemonis had it to do over, I'm sure he would agree.

Separate discussion here, but I’m very open to the idea of flipping Harding and Fristoe. Harding has a slightly better track record of having longer starts (Texas Tech, USM, ULL), whereas Fristoe seems to be great for a couple of innings and then noticeably loses some effectiveness.

Fristoe would be a great relief option if you could make the Sunday starter spot work with Harding or someone else. I’m not sure we will go that route, but Fristoe could be our equivalent to what Zach Hess was early in his career at LSU. Arguably Fristoe’s best outing in SEC play was the Sunday LSU game where he came out of the pen and followed Cerantola.

 

[Go Budaw]

Well holy ****. We weren't playing against any pitcher when I wrote that at 10:36 this morning, so if you are going to nitpick over verb tenses, that'd probably be the place to start.

I’m confused because no coach is making pitching decisions based on a dude who has already been out of the game for the other team for multiple innings. That’s moronic and emotional type decision making that has no place in the head of any legitimate head coach. Size of the lead / deficit, inning of the game, runners on base, upcoming guys in the order, remaining arms left for both days....those are things to consider. Lemonis has a goal to maximize the chances of winning both games with how he manages the decision making, not selling out to hang the first L of the season on an elite pitcher. If Sims coming in with a 6-run lead was the way to maximize those chances, then so be it. But once Leiter is out of the game, it only matters what Vandy has left and what the current game circumstances are.

 

[aTotal360]

Why not just count on each of them pitching 3-4 innings on Sundays. Then close it.

 

[johnson86-1]

I’m confused because no coach is making pitching decisions based on a dude who has already been out of the game for the other team for multiple innings. That’s moronic and emotional type decision making that has no place in the head of any legitimate head coach. Size of the lead / deficit, inning of the game, runners on base, upcoming guys in the order, remaining arms left for both days....those are things to consider. Lemonis has a goal to maximize the chances of winning both games with how he manages the decision making, not selling out to hang the first L of the season on an elite pitcher. If Sims coming in with a 6-run lead was the way to maximize those chances, then so be it. But once Leiter is out of the game, it only matters what Vandy has left and what the current game circumstances are.

Coaches have to think beyond one or two games, so no, Lemonis's only goal is not to maximize the chances of winning both games, and yes, it's relevant that Leiter pitched on Saturday and even that Kumar pitched on Friday, because that impacts what is left for Sunday. If Lemonis is just worried about getting a national championship, then probably the smart play is to optimize for winning a national seed, even if that hurts the chances for a regular season SEC championships. we've got a favorable schedule coming up, and we really just needed one against Vandy and to take care of business from here on out to get a national seed, and it's not like using Sims Saturday was conceding Sunday based on who they had left available.

I would have probably taken more risks, but that's easy for me to say when it's not my job on the line. I also care about SEC regular season championships, but I have to admit that it's also a legitimate position to take that nobody gives a **** about regular season championships compared to CWS appearances (even though the former is much harder to do than the latter), so we should just worry about maximizing our chances at a CWS appearance.