Is Drew Brees a top 10 all-time QB?

[VegasDawg13]

Since you and DoggieDaddy also suck *** at reading comprehension, I’ll aGAIN say that I never said “same era”. The Brees era and the Marino / Elway / Favre eras are SIMILAR. Much more similar than either era is to Staubach / Starr / Unitas. Brees even played at the same time as Favre for almost a decade, and started just 2 years after Marino / Elway retired. Saying the eras aren’t similar in terms of how the game was played is ridiculous. Was it more friendly for Brees? Sure. But not so much that you could say that Elway / Marino / Favre would have added 12-20 points to their passer ratings if they played in the same time period. That’s a massive logical leap.

I literally quoted what you said, so you accusing me of putting words in your mouth is an odd choice. Drebin also quoted you correctly.

You're now changing it to say that the eras are more similar than other eras, which 1) isn't what you said, and 2) isn't really relevant. The moon is a lot closer than Mars, but the moon is still pretty damn far away.

The era in which Marino and Elway played is not similar to the era in which Brees played. You can say that as many times as you want, but it will remain wrong. 20 of the top 27 all-time leaders in passer rating were active in the 2020 NFL season. The rest either retired in the last 10 years or are named Joe Montana or Steve Young.

 

[SheltonChoked]

Since you and DoggieDaddy also suck *** at reading comprehension, I’ll aGAIN say that I never said “same era”. The Brees era and the Marino / Elway / Favre eras are SIMILAR. Much more similar than either era is to Staubach / Starr / Unitas. Brees even played at the same time as Favre for almost a decade, and started just 2 years after Marino / Elway retired. Saying the eras aren’t similar in terms of how the game was played is ridiculous. Was it more friendly for Brees? Sure. But not so much that you could say that Elway / Marino / Favre would have added 12-20 points to their passer ratings if they played in the same time period. That’s a massive logical leap.

Marino playing in today's system would re write all the records. They changed the rules drastically in 1994 ( no contact more than 5 yard down the field on WR) and in 2009 (cannot hit QB's anymore).

The last one is what allows brady and brees to play so much longer than Montana, Marino, Staubach, and Elway. The first one opened up the passing game.

Brees is a great QB. HOF. no doubt. but not top 10 all time. Probably not top 15.

 

[SheltonChoked]

Who knows? Probably better than they did in their actual era, but no way to know how much better. Does Marino’s career passer rating improve from 86 to 96? 106? No way to know. The only one you could say that would have definitely been awesome would be Montana, because his numbers in the 80’s and early 90’s would have been pretty damn good even today.

Look at Marino's adjusted passer rating 1994-1998 vs brees before 2009. Playing under similar rules, and marino being much older (and brees having offenses that figured out how to take advantage of the no contact rules) https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MariDa00.htm https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00.htm

See how much better brees was after he could be hit? Think Marino would have would have put up several 141+rating seasons?

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

No

 

[Go Budaw]

Marino playing in today's system would re write all the records. They changed the rules drastically in 1994 ( no contact more than 5 yard down the field on WR) and in 2009 (cannot hit QB's anymore).

The last one is what allows brady and brees to play so much longer than Montana, Marino, Staubach, and Elway. The first one opened up the passing game.

Brees is a great QB. HOF. no doubt. but not top 10 all time. Probably not top 15.

Marino played 6 seasons (1994-1999) after the WR contact rule was changed. The highest passer rating he put up in that period was 90.8 in 1995. Brees’ career rating was 98.8. Brees’ 2004 season, his 3rd as a starter, was a 104.8 rating against that same 90.8 that Marino put up in 1995. The NFL didn’t completely transform in just those 9 years...it was mostly the same league.

There’s just no evidence at all that Marino gets to his statistical level if he played today. Pure conjecture. That doesn’t mean Marino wasn’t a great QB in his own right...it’s just that you can’t make sweeping statements about who would do what in today’s game without looking at how big the gap is. And Brees played 50% of his career alongside Favre in the league....so saying those two are different era QB’s is patently false.

And I never said he was Top 10 all time. I said he was Top 10 and probably Top 5 over the past 40 years, and beyond that you couldn’t really compare.

 

[SheltonChoked]

Marino played 6 seasons (1994-1999) after the WR contact rule was changed. The highest passer rating he put up in that period was 90.8 in 1995. Brees’ career rating was 98.8. Brees’ 2004 season, his 3rd as a starter, was a 104.8 rating against that same 90.8 that Marino put up in 1995. The NFL didn’t completely transform in just those 9 years...it was mostly the same league.

There’s just no evidence at all that Marino gets to his statistical level if he played today. Pure conjecture. That doesn’t mean Marino wasn’t a great QB in his own right...it’s just that you can’t make sweeping statements about who would do what in today’s game without looking at how big the gap is. And Brees played 50% of his career alongside Favre in the league....so saying those two are different era QB’s is patently false.

And I never said he was Top 10 all time. I said he was Top 10 and probably Top 5 over the past 40 years, and beyond that you couldn’t really compare.

Marino played his last 6 season, and in a time when you could hit the QB legally and blow out both knees without a flag.
You dont think the passing game in the NFL got better to adjust to the new rules changes in 1994? you must be 20 years old.

And cite where I mentioned farve.

And the past 40 years. you get brees. You pick which rules (pre-1994, pre 2009, or modern) I'll take Marino, Montana, Young, Moon, Manning, Mahomes, Elway, Kelly, Rodgers, or Brady and whip your team's ***. Add in the pre 1980 guys (bradshaw, Staubach, Stabler, Tarkington, Unitas, or Starr) and like i said, Brees is not top 15.

Look a brees numbers before 2009.

 

[SheltonChoked]

Similar era as in not from the Staubach / Starr / Bradshaw / Unitas period where completing 53% of your passes When Defensive backs you maul a wr all the way down the field, even when a ball was in the air and the defense you hit you and break you without a flag, made you one of the most accurate passers in the league. I didn’t say “same era”. There is a much smaller gap in the late 90’s to now in terms of the evolution of NFL passing offenses than there was from the 60’s / 70’s to the mid-80’s. That’s just a fact.

As to your other question, he had more or the same hardware as Favre / Marino (Unless you count MVP's and All pro), and way better career numbers across the board than those two and Elway. So I don’t see how you can’t put him ahead of Favre at least, and possibly Elway as well.

FTFY

And by pure passer rating, Teddy Bridgewater is a better QB than Every non active QB except Montana and Young. Is he HOF, or ave the rule changes so much a below average NFL QB can put up huge numbers? By pure passer rating Mitch Trubisky is a better QB than Marino. And if a below average QB can put up huge numbers, then the first guy to throw for 5,000 yards, would do what in today's league?

 

[dog12]

Let's look at it another way. If you were picking teams and needed a QB for one game and all you had on offense was a set of mediocre lineman and skill players and YOU or someone like Jack Del Rio were the coach (not Sean Payton) and you had to win, would you really choose Drew Brees as your QB? over all the QBs in NFL history?

I suspect none of you would choose him in your top 25, much less your top 10. I'd still choose Michael Vick over Brees.

1 game?

I'd take either 1995 Brett Favre or 1984 Dan Marino . . . can't decide which one.

If I had to choose a QB from more recent times, then I'd pick 2010 Aaron Rodgers or the current Patrick Mahomes.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Its impossible to compare QBs like Staubach, Bradshaw Montana to Brees or Rodgers. Everything has changed so much plus some of those teams were just loaded with talent. Players stayed put and you could build dynasties. What if Pittsburgh had waited until 71 and drafted Archie Manning instead of taking Bradshaw in 70 ? Would he have 4 rings ? Probably so. Was Montana that great or was he on a great team ? What would Marino have done if he was in San Fran ?? Too many variables to make a factual statement.

 

[Go Budaw]

Marino played his last 6 season, and in a time when you could hit the QB legally and blow out both knees without a flag.

Look a brees numbers before 2009.

Challenge accepted....Lets look at Marino’s last 6 years and Brees’ first 6 years as a starter (also in a time when he had his throwing shoulder completely reconstructed). Both playing under the exact same rules for hitting the QB and for WR contact, Marino average passer rating was 82.65. Brees was 87.33. Hmm.

You dont think the passing game in the NFL got better to adjust to the new rules changes in 1994? you must be 20 years old.

Never said that. But since you brought it up, how much better would Brees’ numbers have to be for you to concede he was better than Marino? If he had a career passer rating of 110, would that be enough? 100,000 passing yards? 700 touchdowns? He’s already got the distinct advantage in hardware, career stats, and average per season stats. That’s the thing with these lazy *** arguments about how such-and-such from yesteryear would kill it now. No matter how good anyone ever is in the present, someone else from the past would have always hypothetically done better because reasons. Can never be proven or disproven. At least make an attempt to show what Marino’s numbers would look like present day, or what Brees’ would have looked like in the 80’s / 90’s.

And the past 40 years. you get brees. You pick which rules (pre-1994, pre 2009, or modern) I’ll take Montana, Manning, Rodgers, Brady and whip your team's ***.

Yeah, you probably would.

Marino, Young, Mahomes, Elway

Meh....

Moon, Kelly

LOL.

 

[SheltonChoked]

Its impossible to compare QBs like Staubach, Bradshaw Montana to Brees or Rodgers. Everything has changed so much plus some of those teams were just loaded with talent. Players stayed put and you could build dynasties. What if Pittsburgh had waited until 71 and drafted Archie Manning instead of taking Bradshaw in 70 ? Would he have 4 rings ? Probably so. Was Montana that great or was he on a great team ? What would Marino have done if he was in San Fran ?? Too many variables to make a factual statement.

What would Jerry Rice's numbers have been if he'd played only in post 1994 passing rules? Hint his catch % went from 60% in 1993 to 75% in 1994

 

[dog12]

But how would Staubach, Elway, Aikman, Steve Young, Bradshaw, & Marino do playing under the same rules as Brees?

And let's not forget that all QBs playing in the NFL from 1981 to 1993 should have their all their numbers adjusted upwardly, because they had to play with a severe handicap . . . this guy:



I'll bet Ron Jaworski, before going to sleep, checks under his bed every night to make sure LT isn't there.

 

[PineGroveBully]

He’d still be running

 

[Go Budaw]

1.Brady
2. Montana
3. Manning
Next 3. Marino, Unitas, Elway
Next 6. Brees, Favre, Graham, Staubach, Rodgers, Tarkenton.

Brees definitely in the top half of that group or the group before. 6-9 at this time is fair.

Guy that always gets left out but should be up by Marino if they hadn't waited 6 years to give him a chance in the NFL?

Warren Moon. 50,000 yards passing after age 28. In the 80's and 90's when QB's got murdered and WR's got mugged.

Man I think you are waaaaay underselling Rodgers. Doesn’t matter what criteria you value most (stats / efficiency, MVP’s, SB wins). He’s done it all. Unquestionably a Top 4 guy over the past 40 years.

 

[Go Budaw]

Look at Marino's adjusted passer rating 1994-1998 vs brees before 2009. Playing under similar rules, and marino being much older (and brees having offenses that figured out how to take advantage of the no contact rules) https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MariDa00.htm https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00.htm

See how much better brees was after he could be hit? Think Marino would have would have put up several 141+rating seasons?

From the exact same site....which one is higher on this list?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_QB.htm

Honestly, the biggest knock on Brees was who he had to share the stage with in his 20 seasons. He had a 100% career overlap with Tom Brady, about 75% with Rodgers, and 80% with Peyton Manning. That’s why his MVP and All-Pro numbers aren’t what many of the other greats are. 3 of the 4 best guys (other being Montana) over the past 4 decades were all playing at the same time as Brees. It’s hard to penalize him for that.

 

[SheltonChoked]

Challenge accepted....Lets look at Marino’s last 6 years and Brees’ first 6 years as a starter (also in a time when he had his throwing shoulder completely reconstructed). Both playing under the exact same rules for hitting the QB and for WR contact, Marino average passer rating was 82.65. Brees was 87.33. Hmm.



Never said that. But since you brought it up, how much better would Brees’ numbers have to be for you to concede he was better than Marino? If he had a career passer rating of 110, would that be enough? 100,000 passing yards? 700 touchdowns? He’s already got the distinct advantage in hardware, career stats, and average per season stats. That’s the thing with these lazy *** arguments about how such-and-such from yesteryear would kill it now. No matter how good anyone ever is in the present, someone else from the past would have always hypothetically done better because reasons. Can never be proven or disproven. At least make an attempt to show what Marino’s numbers would look like present day, or what Brees’ would have looked like in the 90’s.



Yeah, you probably would.



Meh....



LOL.

You really must be 20. Dan Marino Blew his achilles in 1993. He was never "mobile" but he was playing on one leg after that. In 1995 he hurt his hip. Funny things happen to QB's when they get hit every play.

Do a direct comparison for a 33 year old 11 year NFL vet playing in the break the QB league with a bad achilles and a bad hip vs a young kid. But ok. How much did brees rating improve post 2009? when he stopped getting killed every week? now apply that to marino....

What "Hardware" does brees have a "distinct advantage" in? All Pro selections? MVP's? One SB ring?

I'm not a Alternate past stats guy but i'll give it a shot, if marino had improved like brees did
Marino would have played until he was 44, completed 65% of his passes, averaged over 5,000 yard passing a season and broken 6,000 once.

Dan's 84 season he was 2,300 yards and 30 TD's passing ahead of the nfl passing average. Yeah he lapped over 1/2 the league.

Mahomes beat brees in 2020, 32-29

You never saw warren moon or jim kelly play i guess. Remind me how many super bowls in a row Brees went to?


I get it. You are a saints guy and he is the best to play there. but he's not close to top 10 "all time". or even in the last 40 years. And that's not a bad thing. there are 94+ QB's on NFL rosters every year. and 100 years of the NFL. That's still top 0.1% ever.

 

[Drebin]

Marino played his last 6 season, and in a time when you could hit the QB legally and blow out both knees without a flag.
You dont think the passing game in the NFL got better to adjust to the new rules changes in 1994? you must be 20 years old.

And cite where I mentioned farve.

And the past 40 years. you get brees. You pick which rules (pre-1994, pre 2009, or modern) I'll take Marino, Montana, Young, Moon, Manning, Mahomes, Elway, Kelly, Rodgers, or Brady and whip your team's ***. Add in the pre 1980 guys (bradshaw, Staubach, Stabler, Tarkington, Unitas, or Starr) and like i said, Brees is not top 15.

Look a brees numbers before 2009.

Marino was also significantly limited his last few years because he never fully recovered from a ruptured Achilles.

 

[Drebin]

You really must be 20. Dan Marino Blew his achilles in 1993. He was never "mobile" but he was playing on one leg after that. In 1995 he hurt his hip. Funny things happen to QB's when they get hit every play.

Do a direct comparison for a 33 year old 11 year NFL vet playing in the break the QB league with a bad achilles and a bad hip vs a young kid. But ok. How much did brees rating improve post 2009? when he stopped getting killed every week? now apply that to marino....

What "Hardware" does brees have a "distinct advantage" in? All Pro selections? MVP's? One SB ring?

I'm not a Alternate past stats guy but i'll give it a shot, if marino had improved like brees did
Marino would have played until he was 44, completed 65% of his passes, averaged over 5,000 yard passing a season and broken 6,000 once.

Dan's 84 season he was 2,300 yards and 30 TD's passing ahead of the nfl passing average. Yeah he lapped over 1/2 the league.

Mahomes beat brees in 2020, 32-29

You never saw warren moon or jim kelly play i guess. Remind me how many super bowls in a row Brees went to?


I get it. You are a saints guy and he is the best to play there. but he's not close to top 10 "all time". or even in the last 40 years. And that's not a bad thing. there are 94+ QB's on NFL rosters every year. and 100 years of the NFL. That's still top 0.1% ever.

As I said elsewhere, the comp for Brees is Kurt Warner. And it's not an insult. They're hall of fame quarterbacks.

 

[Go Budaw]

You really must be 20. Dan Marino Blew his achilles in 1993. He was never "mobile" but he was playing on one leg after that. In 1995 he hurt his hip. Funny things happen to QB's when they get hit every play.

Do a direct comparison for a 33 year old 11 year NFL vet playing in the break the QB league with a bad achilles and a bad hip vs a young kid. But ok. How much did brees rating improve post 2009? when he stopped getting killed every week? now apply that to marino....

What "Hardware" does brees have a "distinct advantage" in? All Pro selections? MVP's? One SB ring?

I'm not a Alternate past stats guy but i'll give it a shot, if marino had improved like brees did
Marino would have played until he was 44, completed 65% of his passes, averaged over 5,000 yard passing a season and broken 6,000 once.

Dan's 84 season he was 2,300 yards and 30 TD's passing ahead of the nfl passing average. Yeah he lapped over 1/2 the league.

Mahomes beat brees in 2020, 32-29

You never saw warren moon or jim kelly play i guess. Remind me how many super bowls in a row Brees went to?


I get it. You are a saints guy and he is the best to play there. but he's not close to top 10 "all time". or even in the last 40 years. And that's not a bad thing. there are 94+ QB's on NFL rosters every year. and 100 years of the NFL. That's still top 0.1% ever.

So you mention all these Marino injuries to his leg and hip without even acknowledging Brees’ shoulder reconstruction? Seriously? Which of those 3 body parts do you think is by far and away the most important in terms of throwing a football? I guess you’re also going to ignore the broken ribs and torn labrum from this past season, too (those injuries couldn’t have possibly happened after 2009, right?).

Hardware wise, a SB ring trumps one MVP award every time. The rest is just white noise. Brees was a victim of playing at the same time as 3 of the 4 best over 4 decades and arguably 3 of the 6-7 best ever over any period for the entirety of his career...as I’ve already stated. Otherwise he grabs a few MVP’s and several first team All-Pro selections.

And no, I’m not a Saints guy. You must not have paid much attention to my other posts over the years. Not even a Brees guy, really...had numerous arguments with others about his limitations over the past few years, specifically. But he was an elite one in his prime, just as Marino was. I think Brees had little bit better overall career, and objective sources (like the one I linked from your site in another reply) agree with me. But to each his own, I guess.