My biggest complaint with the Howland era

MSUDC11

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is that those who defend Howland tend to treat accomplishing the bare minimum as some great success, and then our frequent moments of underachieving get blamed on unreasonable fan expectations because "at least it's better than Rick Ray."

There is a notion that we shouldn't hold the coaching staff accountable, it's just the fans' fault for expecting too much of them. We're told to stop complaining about the Liberty loss because we should just be glad that our veteran team with three NBA players on it even made the tournament to begin with. We're told to stop complaining about last year's team being on the bubble because we should just be happy to finish 4th in the league and ignore all the bad losses that team had that kept them from being a tournament lock. We're told to stop having any kind of expectations for this team because they were picked to finish 12th in the league and are a young team, even though the reason we are a young team is because many of the players we recruited to be upperclassmen on this team were non-factors who transferred out and Howland's recruiting misses don't ever get talked about, and we've also shown enough potential to suggest we can be good but keep losing to bad teams anyway. We are just overreacting to all of that, or so we are told.

I can already tell you what next season is going to be like, we'll be told before the year how the roster is so good and the missing pieces can be easily replaced, and then once we inevitably take some bad losses the narrative will flip to "well the roster isn't actually that good and we lost some important pieces from last year." There's always a spin. And if nothing else, the default response is "who are you going to hire that's any better?" as if there aren't dozens of mid-major coaches around the country who get a heck of a lot more out of their teams than we get out of ours. Avery Johnson and Mike Anderson got fired for producing very similar results to what Howland is producing, but they were replaced with strong mid-major coaches and those programs are doing just fine now (or in Bama's case, exceedingly well).

Howland does just enough to stay off the hot seat, but nothing more. We did take steps forward as a program under Howland (as was expected with the talent he brought to campus), but those steps forward were smaller than they could've been and now we seem to be done taking steps forward. You can count on us to do just enough to say "see, we're not that bad," but that's the extent of it, and our fans will constantly be left disappointed as we show flashes of potential only to continuously lose to lesser teams. We'll keep doing this sideways shuffle on and on again as long as he is here.
 
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msstate7

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What should be our goals every year that if not met should be a fire able offense?
 

Wizard.sixpack

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What should be our goals every year that if not met should be a fire able offense?
Depends on if we are dedicated to having a good basketball program or not. I am sick of the "we are MSU, we can't expect too much" mentality. It's tired and old. My question is how long can Howland continue to be mediocre before our fan base realizes he is washed up as a head coach? We are far removed from when he first got here, he was recruiting lights out and we had high hopes based on him being to 3 straight Final Fours. He just hasn't progressed enough..ESPECIALLY with the talent he has had on teams since he has been here. We need a change.
 

msstate7

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Depends on if we are dedicated to having a good basketball program or not.

Well, we aren't. Look at coaching salary, old facilities, and no fan support. Our fans seem to think we should be able to put nothing in as a athletic dept and fanbase, and yet, get outstanding results. We get good results with an investment of basically nothing.
 

Seinfeld

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Well said. Really the only thing I can add is that while Sixpackers such as ourselves can debate all day as to whether Howland’s achievements are enough, the opinions that matter are the donors and season ticket holders. Some of us obviously represent that group as well, but my point is that fair or not, I think that attendance from the last two seasons showed us that 20-win seasons and NCAA bubbles are not enough. The fanbase wants more than that, so that needs to be taken into consideration

If we hang on to Howland, like you said, we know exactly what we’re getting. Therefore, it should be no surprise as to what attendance and general fan support will look like for the next couple years as well
 

johnson86-1

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In the last three seasons, in the SEC, we're 30-24, and have finished T-7, T-6, and T-5.

In 2017-18, we finished behind Auburn, Tennessee, Florida, Kentucky, Missour, and Arkansas, and tied with A&M.
In 2018-19, we finished behind LSU, Tennessee, Kentucky, Aurbun, South Carolina, and tied with Ole Miss.
In 2019-20, we finished behind Kentucky, Auburn, LSU, and tied Florida.

Which teams have we finished behind that you view as a fireable offense? Howland's era has so far been disappointing based on his prior success, but that's a better than average hire for us. Certainly doesn't look like a very good coach for us, but he looks like a pretty good coach. And whine about accepting mediocrity all you want, but pretty good is good enough for us in basketball. Firing pretty good coaches is not typically how you get better when you don't have recruiting or resource advantages.
 

Wizard.sixpack

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That starts with the right coach IMO. A coach that can come in and provide a spark and get the fans excited. Howland couldn't do that. Sure he brought a great resume but his best days were behind him. The fan support starts there and then winning cures all.
 

Wizard.sixpack

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This exactly the attitude I was referencing. If this is "good enough", then this is what we will always have. That's sad and an incorrect approach.
 

MSUDC11

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In the last three seasons, in the SEC, we're 30-24, and have finished T-7, T-6, and T-5.

In 2017-18, we finished behind Auburn, Tennessee, Florida, Kentucky, Missour, and Arkansas, and tied with A&M.
In 2018-19, we finished behind LSU, Tennessee, Kentucky, Aurbun, South Carolina, and tied with Ole Miss.
In 2019-20, we finished behind Kentucky, Auburn, LSU, and tied Florida.

Which teams have we finished behind that you view as a fireable offense? Howland's era has so far been disappointing based on his prior success, but that's a better than average hire for us. Certainly doesn't look like a very good coach for us, but he looks like a pretty good coach. And whine about accepting mediocrity all you want, but pretty good is good enough for us in basketball. Firing pretty good coaches is not typically how you get better when you don't have recruiting or resource advantages.

I had no expectations of him replicating his success at UCLA, but if you go back to the fall of 2015 when we had Malik Newman and Q Weatherspoon on campus and were in the process of signing a very good recruiting class filled with Top 100 players, there is not a soul that thought we would have only one sure-fire tournament team in Howland's first six years.

You see his last three teams and point to them as successes. I see the 2018 team and think how they lost to horrible Ole Miss and Vandy teams and that kept them out of the tournament, and those two games were also the difference in us finishing 7th and 4th. I was totally fine with the 2019 team until they lost to Liberty, your mileage may vary on how big of a deal that loss was, but to me that team had no business being one and done in the tourney. The 2020 team did finish fourth, but losses to bad Ole Miss and Texas A&M teams put them squarely on the bubble and we would've finished 2nd in the league if we had just won those two games.

I'm not asking for a whole lot more, just stop having these momentum killing losses to bad teams. Or if you do have a bad loss, make up for it by upsetting one of the big boys. But that's not what has happened historically. We constantly miss opportunities for larger growth by having all of these unnecessary setbacks, and then expect our fans to just be fine with marginal growth from year to year and then wonder why people won't get on board with the program.
 
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PartTimeGenius

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Aug 28, 2018
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I read this article the other day and thought, "This is what's wrong with college basketball." Nothing is about the team winning anymore, it's primary focus is on developing individual players for the NBA. If the team happens to win a lot of games, that is just extra job security for coaches.

“Man, it was great. I love Cal. I still talk to Cal to this day. He lets you rock,” Fox said. “That’s why he wants guards like John [Wall] and myself and [Brandon] Knight, Tyler Ulis. The way that he coaches, it’s like absolute freedom. He’ll put X’s and O’s but at the end of the day, everything’s going to end up in a pick and roll or isolation. That’s what the NBA is too.”

https://kentuckysportsradio.com/basketball-2/deaaron-fox-says-john-calipari-couldnt-give-a-damn-about-winning-college-basketball-games/
 

Wizard.sixpack

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Sep 15, 2009
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...if you go back to the fall of 2015 when we had Malik Newman and Q Weatherspoon on campus and were in the process of signing a very good recruiting class filled with Top 100 players, there is not a soul that thought we would have only one sure-fire tournament team in Howland's first six years.

This^^
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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This exactly the attitude I was referencing. If this is "good enough", then this is what we will always have. That's sad and an incorrect approach.

Even if you are indifferent between having a bubble team and having a ****** team, this is not correct. Howland isn't going to coach forever. We will probably get a chance at another hire sometimes in the next three years. I'd prefer to make that hire with a coach retiring after coming off of say 2 NCAA tournaments in the last 4 years or even 2 in the last 6 rather than than after firing a coach that got us a 5 seed, got us a 4th place SEC finish (which granted was underachieving) in the season covid cancelled, and finished in the middle of the pack in a rebuilding year.

No matter what people like to pretend, you usually can't improve a program by firing any coach who does not reach the programs maximum potential. If you keep firing above average coaches, above average candidates are going to decide it's not a good bet, and you're going to be stuck reaching for coaches. Sometimes that will work out great, but on average, that will decrease the quality of your hires.
 

msstate7

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Even if you are indifferent between having a bubble team and having a ****** team, this is not correct. Howland isn't going to coach forever. We will probably get a chance at another hire sometimes in the next three years. I'd prefer to make that hire with a coach retiring after coming off of say 2 NCAA tournaments in the last 4 years or even 2 in the last 6 rather than than after firing a coach that got us a 5 seed, got us a 4th place SEC finish (which granted was underachieving) in the season covid cancelled, and finished in the middle of the pack in a rebuilding year.

No matter what people like to pretend, you usually can't improve a program by firing any coach who does not reach the programs maximum potential. If you keep firing above average coaches, above average candidates are going to decide it's not a good bet, and you're going to be stuck reaching for coaches. Sometimes that will work out great, but on average, that will decrease the quality of your hires.

I think about programs like tenn football, auburn football, and Florida football who all ended up swinging and missing on their top targets. These programs are far better than our basketball program. If we had to go to our 3rd choice, we'd be screwed unless we really got lucky
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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I had no expectations of him replicating his success at UCLA, but if you go back to the fall of 2015 when we had Malik Newman and Q Weatherspoon on campus and were in the process of signing a very good recruiting class filled with Top 100 players, there is not a soul that thought we would have only one sure-fire tournament team in Howland's first six years.

You see his last three teams and point to them as successes. I see the 2018 team and think how they lost to horrible Ole Miss and Vandy teams and that kept them out of the tournament, and those two games were also the difference in us finishing 7th and 4th. I was totally fine with the 2019 team until they lost to Liberty, your mileage may vary on how big of a deal that loss was, but to me that team had no business being one and done in the tourney. The 2020 team did finish fourth, but losses to bad Ole Miss and Texas A&M teams put them squarely on the bubble and we would've finished 2nd in the league if we had just won those two games.

I'm not asking for a whole lot more, just stop having these momentum killing losses to bad teams. Or if you do have a bad loss, make up for it by upsetting one of the big boys. But that's not what has happened historically. We constantly miss opportunities for larger growth by having all of these unnecessary setbacks, and then expect our fans to just be fine with marginal growth from year to year and then wonder why people won't get on board with the program.

I don't disagree with any of this. I'm not happy with our results. But as frustrating as it is to underachieve with talent, I think you have to look at the overall results and whether firing a coach is likely to improve them. We will likely do worse than Howland if we fire him. Sometimes that's ok. It was never likely that we were going to do better than Stansbury when we fired him, and it was probably still time to rip off the bandaid because of the culture. I just don't think we're facing anything like that with Howland right now.

If we were going to do anything after this season, I would ask Howland what assistant is out there that he would want that he could get with an increase in his budget. Or even ask him if there is a head coach he could identify at a small school that might be a candidate to bring on as an assistant with the expectation he'd be a viable head coaching candidate for when Howland retires (although that really depends on how comfortable Howland is and whether he thinks he's going to retire in the next few years).
 

HWY51dog

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Jul 24, 2013
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He has to hire someone to run the offense. It’s painful to watch, if he refused he should be fired. This team has so much potential.
 

MSUDC11

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Like I mentioned, my problem with the whole “who can we hire that’s any better” argument is that your candidate pool is way bigger than it would be for, say, football. Our brains are conditioned for a football mindset where you’re looking at a select few realistic candidates that would even be qualified, much less interested. Basketball has a much wider net that can be cast. The head coach at Buffalo, Belmont, Murray State, etc. wouldn’t be in play for an SEC football job most likely, but a lot of those type of basketball coaches are more than qualified to coach in the SEC.

Part of that argument also seems to suggest that we couldn’t have possibly made a better hire in 2015. I did like the hire at the time, and it was obviously a big upgrade from Rick Ray, but let’s not pretend that we got Howland at the height of his success. He was fired for having underachieving teams at the end of his UCLA run and had been out of coaching for two years. It’s possible he was the best we could do at the time, and I’m fine with that, but our situation is a bit different now 6 years later, and different than it even was in 2012.

Bama fired Avery Johnson in spite of him making it to at least the NIT every year. Arkansas fired Mike Anderson after he went to the NCAA Tourney three of his last five years. Are those programs generally better than ours? Yeah I’d say so. But it’s not a drastic difference. And much like those two schools, I think there are good and driven mid-major coaches that would come here.
 
Nov 12, 2007
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In the last three seasons, in the SEC, we're 30-24, and have finished T-7, T-6, and T-5.

In 2017-18, we finished behind Auburn, Tennessee, Florida, Kentucky, Missour, and Arkansas, and tied with A&M.
In 2018-19, we finished behind LSU, Tennessee, Kentucky, Aurbun, South Carolina, and tied with Ole Miss.
In 2019-20, we finished behind Kentucky, Auburn, LSU, and tied Florida.

Which teams have we finished behind that you view as a fireable offense? Howland's era has so far been disappointing based on his prior success, but that's a better than average hire for us. Certainly doesn't look like a very good coach for us, but he looks like a pretty good coach. And whine about accepting mediocrity all you want, but pretty good is good enough for us in basketball. Firing pretty good coaches is not typically how you get better when you don't have recruiting or resource advantages.

Agreed. We have a good basketball history but nothing on the level of the big guns to attract a coach or players to put us on that level. We can do what the OP asked but we have to put a lot of money into facilities to attract those players or coaches. You are not going to sell them on waiting for the investment to pan out when you look at the things schools like Kansas have. Go look at what recruits see when they visit that place.

We have even less money with Covid and you want to take what money we have and start building for a team that has no fans even before the pandemic?

These aren't excuses, they are facts. At this moment all we can hope for is that Howland keeps building a better thing until we replace him or he retires. Right now is infuriating because when we have a good performance, we are not experienced enough to deal with the adjustments the opponents have the next time out. These guys were riding pine last season and still need tough game experience to get better.

The best thing you can hope for is our guys learn how to deal with adversity, improve their game, and come back next year ready from the first tip off.
 
Feb 23, 2008
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Look at he and his staff also. Have you ever seen a coaching staff never leaving

for other jobs? Literally the same bunch he brought on board with him when he started. That in itself should speak volumes considering there are 350 D1 schools playing basketball and countless jobs open the last 6 years.
 

olblue.sixpack

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Aug 14, 2012
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for other jobs? Literally the same bunch he brought on board with him when he started. That in itself should speak volumes considering there are 350 D1 schools playing basketball and countless jobs open the last 6 years.

This is it in a nutshell. Those guys on Howland’s staff seem to have zero options. I mean how long is George Brooks going to hold a clipboard before someone asks “how much are we paying this guy and for what?”. Some in the homer media will defend him by saying how influential he is in bringing the talent to MSU then talk about how much MSU is overachieving in the next thread because they don’t have the talent to measure up.

You got to figure Howland will work this year and next. It would be nice if that up-and-comer assistant was sitting next to him. But he’s not.
 

paindonthurt_

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2/3 Tourney appearances so over 5 years 3 and over 6 years 4

And make the damn 2nd round in half of them.
 

paindonthurt_

All-Conference
Jun 27, 2009
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2/3 Tourney appearances so over 5 years 3 and over 6 years 4

And make the damn 2nd round in half of them.

Surely we can be a top 40 team in the country 4/6 years.
 

Bagman.sixpack

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We aren’t who everyone thinks we are/wants us to be. We haven’t been for almost 20 years. Even then, we weren’t anything more than an occasional tournament team. And we decided to fire the guy that was linked to all of those teams.

We have made the tournament a total of 11 times. That’s it.

We are stupid if we think we can fire Howland and then believe we can definitely replace him with someone who will exceed our history, you better be damn sure. The probabilities skew toward us getting another Rick Ray instead of a Rick Stansbury.

If Howland makes two tournaments in 10 he will have had a great run. Williams made it three times in 22 years.
 

Russ Wheeler

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Aug 3, 2020
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Depends on if we are dedicated to having a good basketball program or not. I am sick of the "we are MSU, we can't expect too much" mentality. It's tired and old.
I think we have already answered this question. We don't show up and support the teams during ALL times, good and bad. So, we have collectively decided to be a mediocre program. This is a fact, so downvote away.
 

Russ Wheeler

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What should be our goals every year that if not met should be a fire able offense?
The goals should not based in wins and losses. Since we have decided, due to our attendance, that we are not going to be elite (see my post below this one), then the AD needs to recognize that and realize we are going to have to build back slowly. We did not capitalize on Stans' success and the new facility, but that's history, let's move on.

The ideal plan would be just like football - focus on recruiting mainly MS guys who truly want to be here and will give us less grief than the primadonnas. Go into AL, LA, TN for some hard working guys. Then just hope for that difference maker from JUCO, transfer or the MS ranks (like Dampier, Jones, Power, Roberts) who fit right and want to come in here and take us to the next level. Then you go from there. We need to focus on a solid fundamental coach who will have us playing hard and in the right positions, which will lead to development. Then as we have success, our recruiting gets better over time.

Slow build over time is the ticket. I don't think Howland is the guy for this, personally. Maybe he once was.
 
Aug 24, 2012
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His first step should be getting some competent assistants. Brooks and Mccray bring nothing to the table other than some connections within the state. After watching several teams today run offense outta the half court set, it's obvious this staff has no clue.
 

jdbulldog

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Oct 27, 2007
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How in the world do some of you folks write so much? I cannot keep up with all this stuff so I am just going to watch our game! COVID-19 can go straight to hell.
 
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