How much does our offensive performance worry you for future seasons?...
- Thread starter dawgstudent
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There’s no way around it... when a senior grad transfer QB, an all-SEC RB, and a talented 5-man line can’t cross the goal line once against Kentucky, it’s concerning. Both QBs looked completely overwhelmed, and Leach can say what he wants about his history, but it was like flipping a switch as soon as he started seeing a drop 8 zone
Does this mean that Leach will never get it going here? I don’t think so, but I’m rapidly starting to believe we’re looking at 2022 best case before we start to turn any corner.
I’m to the point where I no longer care about the # of wins this year. I just want to see his offense operate effectively against a zone
Does this mean that Leach will never get it going here? I don’t think so, but I’m rapidly starting to believe we’re looking at 2022 best case before we start to turn any corner.
I’m to the point where I no longer care about the # of wins this year. I just want to see his offense operate effectively against a zone
Not a ton, but we have major OL issues. Until we can get those corrected, we’re going to struggle.
I would like to see this offense evolve to have a bit more athleticism at QB. I don’t see that in year 1 from Leach. Maybe that’s Costello, but when I see him roll out and not take the easy 5 yard run, I’m afraid that’s being coached.
I would like to see this offense evolve to have a bit more athleticism at QB. I don’t see that in year 1 from Leach. Maybe that’s Costello, but when I see him roll out and not take the easy 5 yard run, I’m afraid that’s being coached.
Mild concern long-term which is where I started the year, as we're three weeks in and it's been a complete roller coaster.
Week 1: way better than I imagined.
Week 2: what I'd feared this year would look like in a new system with limited practice time. Looked bad, but seems fixable.
Week 3: worst-case scenario of week 2. Still seems completely fixable to me at this point.
To me, the thread between winning and losing the last two weeks is quite small and certainly seems like a thing that can be fixed. Will it be this year? Leach's history indicates 'probably not' in year one, but probably will be fixed long term.
To those saying Leach is stubborn, well yes, because his system worked as recently as last year and he went 11-2 at Washington State 2 years ago. He truly believes his system works and I agree with him until proven otherwise.
Week 1: way better than I imagined.
Week 2: what I'd feared this year would look like in a new system with limited practice time. Looked bad, but seems fixable.
Week 3: worst-case scenario of week 2. Still seems completely fixable to me at this point.
To me, the thread between winning and losing the last two weeks is quite small and certainly seems like a thing that can be fixed. Will it be this year? Leach's history indicates 'probably not' in year one, but probably will be fixed long term.
To those saying Leach is stubborn, well yes, because his system worked as recently as last year and he went 11-2 at Washington State 2 years ago. He truly believes his system works and I agree with him until proven otherwise.
I would like to see some minor offensive adjustments. I understand Leach is going to be Leach, but every great coach adapts to his personnel / offensive identity. Saban saw CFB was evolving from power run to pass happy & changed Bama’s offensive identity in the early - mid 2010’s. I’m just asking for a new wrinkle, nothing drastic.
Yeah, I mean everyone has to evolve. One of the basic tenets of football is that you're either getting better or you're getting worse. Maybe Leach is evolving and we just don't know it, and all of these 'he want change' comments are nothing but hot takes. I certainly hope so.
Even Steve Spurrier changed when he went to South Carolina. But see, Leach is a TRUE 'system' coach, whereas I don't really think Spurrier was. Spurrier was a fundamentals coach who really just had an idea of what he wanted his offense to be. True system coaches never seem to change.....Paul Johnson, Rich Rodriguez.....it either continues to work or they fizzle out. Some try to change their system like Gus Malzahn, and end up failing in that way too.
Who really knows. All I know is that we aren't changing coaches anytime soon no matter what.
Im not sure how we conclude that oline is talented. Cross seems to be doing well but we had to bench our center bc he was getting exposed and we had to move Eiland out to RT some bc Dolla is having major issues. Maybe its coaching but i dont think we can say they are talented.
i encourage everyone to watch costellos pick 6. Watch the center. Then watch the right side.
i encourage everyone to watch costellos pick 6. Watch the center. Then watch the right side.
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I’m more concerned that our fan base won’t have the patience to give Leach the time he needs to get it going. It’s going to take time as has been proven by his last two stops. If we are still having struggles at the end of 2021, folks are gonna be spouting off the usual BS (“we paid 10 million for this ****?”, “can’t afford to fire him? We can’t afford NOT to fire him”, “we’re gonna lose every recruit to Ole Miss until we make a change!”).
I think we’ll still have a few games this year where we look better than we’ll think, and probably more stinkers too. Vandy / Mizzou are beatable, and we can maybe get one more somewhere else between Auburn / A&M / OM. 3-7 or 4-6 should be plenty acceptable for this year, given the circumstances. Anyone expecting more was totally kidding themselves. Next year, we should see some marked improvement but likely still some games where we struggle. Year 3 and beyond should be the near best case of what we can expect going forward, at least offensively.
We are more talented in the younger classes than the older ones. That spells doom in the SEC.
True, and I’ll concede that talent is always relative when talking about SEC competition. Basically everyone’s got highly recruited kids.
That said, what I really meant to say is that we should have plenty of talent across the O line in order to be able to block 3. Maybe we don’t have a bunch of future NFL guys, but they should be able to do that nearly effortlessly
That said, what I really meant to say is that we should have plenty of talent across the O line in order to be able to block 3. Maybe we don’t have a bunch of future NFL guys, but they should be able to do that nearly effortlessly
I need to see more games to know for sure. I'm honestly not really sure what to make of it all right now. It's still a very new scheme and big change from anything we've ever done, so I could understand why it might take a little while to get going. At the same time, I'm always a little skeptical of the argument of "just wait until we have the right players". Does that mean your scheme only works with a very specific caliber of player and if you don't have that player then you're screwed? Any scheme obviously works better the more talented players you have, but there's a difference in taking an offense that kinda works and elevating it to a higher level as you recruit better, and the alternative of that would be taking an offense that your current roster can't execute and just assuming it will be better once you have better players. The latter seems a lot less of a sure thing, and that is where we seem to be right now.
I'll never forget something I heard Dan Mullen say at a Road Dawgs meeting before his first season. Somebody asked him if we had a QB that was any good, and his response was, "We hope so, but if not, we will play without a QB." Basically saying I am going to try run my offense the way I want to run it, but if we don't have the dudes to do that, I'm not opposed to doing something very different. And Mullen pretty much did that, our offense with Relf looked a lot different than our offense with Dak, and even while Dak was here our offense didn't look the same in 2015 as it did in 2013 when he started playing a lot.
I know what Leach is and he is always going to be an Air Raid guy. That's his baby and that's he what he wants to do, I get it. And I do think it can work in the SEC if you have a good o-line and an accurate QB. But we're not to that point yet, and we've got to get there. He had a bunch of different QBs that you've never heard of put up big yards in the Big 12 and Pac 12 on teams that were somewhere between average and pretty good, but his two best teams were when he had Harrell and Minshew at the helm, both who finished in the Top 5 of Heisman voting. I guess my concern is do we have to have a Heisman finalist QB and an elite o-line to make this work in the SEC? Because obviously that's going to be hard for us to have on a consistent basis.
Can this offense work if your o-line and your QB play are just OK? Obviously it won't work if you can't block anybody and you're throwing half a dozen interceptions, no offense will if that's going on. But what if we are only OK in those areas? And can we expect to be good defensively every year too? Because that's the part of it that's not really being discussed, we are fine on defense this year but Leach has had some teams that were atrocious on defense but ended up being OK because they could score. What if our offense is only a little better but our defense is much worse, isn't that pretty similar to where we are now?
All that to say, I think Leach is a good coach and truly believe he can make this work. I just hope it doesn't require a perfect set of circumstances for it to work, because our circumstances are rarely perfect as one of the low men on the totem pole in the SEC West. If the circumstances are right, he can make this work. If they're not, can he adapt and make it work? That's the big unknown question at this stage.
I'll never forget something I heard Dan Mullen say at a Road Dawgs meeting before his first season. Somebody asked him if we had a QB that was any good, and his response was, "We hope so, but if not, we will play without a QB." Basically saying I am going to try run my offense the way I want to run it, but if we don't have the dudes to do that, I'm not opposed to doing something very different. And Mullen pretty much did that, our offense with Relf looked a lot different than our offense with Dak, and even while Dak was here our offense didn't look the same in 2015 as it did in 2013 when he started playing a lot.
I know what Leach is and he is always going to be an Air Raid guy. That's his baby and that's he what he wants to do, I get it. And I do think it can work in the SEC if you have a good o-line and an accurate QB. But we're not to that point yet, and we've got to get there. He had a bunch of different QBs that you've never heard of put up big yards in the Big 12 and Pac 12 on teams that were somewhere between average and pretty good, but his two best teams were when he had Harrell and Minshew at the helm, both who finished in the Top 5 of Heisman voting. I guess my concern is do we have to have a Heisman finalist QB and an elite o-line to make this work in the SEC? Because obviously that's going to be hard for us to have on a consistent basis.
Can this offense work if your o-line and your QB play are just OK? Obviously it won't work if you can't block anybody and you're throwing half a dozen interceptions, no offense will if that's going on. But what if we are only OK in those areas? And can we expect to be good defensively every year too? Because that's the part of it that's not really being discussed, we are fine on defense this year but Leach has had some teams that were atrocious on defense but ended up being OK because they could score. What if our offense is only a little better but our defense is much worse, isn't that pretty similar to where we are now?
All that to say, I think Leach is a good coach and truly believe he can make this work. I just hope it doesn't require a perfect set of circumstances for it to work, because our circumstances are rarely perfect as one of the low men on the totem pole in the SEC West. If the circumstances are right, he can make this work. If they're not, can he adapt and make it work? That's the big unknown question at this stage.
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Ok. I’m convinced that 90% of posters on this board have never watched the Pac 12. Im extremely concerned because during all these great seasons that leach had at WSU, from 2013-2019 they scored between 10-17 points against the only sec level defense in the conference, Washington. Can we win many games with 10-17 points?
My concern is that NO one dimensional offense will work well day in and day out in the SEC. Emory Bellard was just as proud (and rightfully so) of his "wishbone" as Leach is of his "air raid" but even mighty programs like Bama could not make it work forever. Leach strikes me as a really smart guy and until he shows he just can't/won't figure out how to get it fixed...we've got to give him the benefit of the doubt that he can and will. At this point , it appears to me he has a locker room problem or two to get straight before he can fix the on-the-field problems.
yes it does worry me. i agree with patdog that most teams take air raid concepts and adapt. Most succesfull coaches adapt their schemes. Leach is overly confident that his same offense will work with no added adaptations. He runs the same exact stuff he has been running since the kentucky days. Mumme would still be coaching in the SEC if the Air Raid worked in it's purest form. Leach has gotten his offense to work at two different schools; however, neither of those conference had the defenses we have in the SEC. I like Leach as a person. He is an interesting character. I like his disciplinary action. I like his concepts for offense even though i'm more of spread option philosophy person. If the offense that you are running is not working either from scheme or execution, you have to adapt it to your players or adapt your players to the offense. Something's got to give.
And we basically just spent two years blasting Moorhead for refusing to adapt to his personnel, yet here we are again back in the same trap.
I’m not going to be one of the ones calling for Leach’s head until he has a legitimate chance to get his players in place and figure this thing out, but I always tend to get nervous when saying things like... well, he just doesn’t have the right personnel yet. The most consistently successful coaches are able to adapt
I’m not going to be one of the ones calling for Leach’s head until he has a legitimate chance to get his players in place and figure this thing out, but I always tend to get nervous when saying things like... well, he just doesn’t have the right personnel yet. The most consistently successful coaches are able to adapt
None at all. I'm on record saying that we would struggle this year.
Edit to add: Ask this same question next year though after three conference games.
Edit to add: Ask this same question next year though after three conference games.
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Moorhead was married to the RPO. Leach is married to the Air Raid. Great coaches aren't one dimensional. Leach has had a great career and made a lot of money. If he doesn't adapt, this will be the end of the road.
For all this talk about how the Air Raid worked in the SEC at Kentucky, they really weren't all that impressive when looking at the records. 7-5 at best, always got smoked by Tennessee and Florida (who were elite), and never beat Georgia (who wasn't really elite). Ending up getting fired at 2-9. That said, Leach left after 1998 and they seemingly were on the upswing until then, so that tells me Leach is probably a better playcaller and coach than Hal Mumme. He certainly was able to reproduce success elsewhere.
On a scale of 1 to 10. About a 4.5. After the LSU game many including myself thought, "it's amazing what good/competent coaching can do." Granted, LSU isn't what we thought they were. But still, "you're either coaching it or allowing it." And the lack of creativity and o-line play the last two games have been embarrassing.
Coach Leach and Mumme never won more than 7 games at UK, so it's not like they were world-beaters even when the offense was new. He did wonders at TTech, but had a 3-9 record in years one And three at WSU.
Coach Leach and Mumme never won more than 7 games at UK, so it's not like they were world-beaters even when the offense was new. He did wonders at TTech, but had a 3-9 record in years one And three at WSU.
A lot. It remains to be seen if this offense will actually work in the SEC, just as many of us were concerned when he was hired. I remember Matt Wyatt stating after we destroyed OM a few years ago, that if you're going to go extreme toward the run or the pass, it's infinitely better to go with the run.
I guess success is relative. They were terrible before they got there and ran a very stagnant offense. similar to us moving from Croom to Mullen.
Leach is definitely a better play caller. Is concept is very similar to Mullen they just have different way of getting there. Mullen believes in running to space and spreading things out horizontally. Leach wants to get to the green space also and spread things out just with passing. a very long hand off. i still think Mullen is a master play caller except given brain farts he has had over the years with extremely bad timing. i've said before play calling should be like a fine piece of music. They rhythm just flows together. I said with Moorhead he just called plays all over the place that didn't flow together. I think Leach is a good play caller, but when the defense runs 3-8 and his qb is incredibly inaccurate that just screws him up. similar to when people would stack the box on mullen with a relf or fitz type qb. wouldn't alot he could do either. Thing is it should be a lot easier for Leach to run with our RB with 3-8 defense.
We need another Doc Fogglesong. That daffodil hating dude set us in motion to have our most successful 10 year football stint. We need another Byrne. I've said for a long time we need an AD that came from the business side of the AD house. Coaches rarely make good AD's at the college level. It's way too big of business to hand the keys over to a guy who spent most of his days trying to decide if he wanted to bunt the 4 hole batter.
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I'm with you up until you say Mullen is a good playcaller. I still say had he turned that over to an OC (hell, anybody, even Gonzales) we might have made it to the playoff in 2014. And had he recruited just a tad bit harder we might have multiple playoff appearances and maybe a title.
The system coaches like Leach and Kiffin are generally very good playcallers. I always thought Mullen was a much better gameplanner, than actual playcaller.
I get this from a high level perspective, but I think we are a long ways away from this being a concern or even something that can be judged. With all the **** we are 17ing up at all 11 positions on offense, I don’t think its even possible to evaluate how much this offense has evolved. I mean, right now we have the following going on:
- QB’s that are throwing passes directly to LB’s that are right in front of them
- QB’s going through progressions slower than a lost dude at the supermarket who is going up and down every aisle looking for the taco sauce.
- QB running 4 yards past the LOS, then throwing the ball
- QB’s missing wide open WR’s 10 yards down the field by 10 feet
- 5 OL that can’t block 3 DL
- Entire right side of the OL that can’t block one DE
- OL that can’t snap the ball
- WR’s / RB’s with no clue on how to find the soft spots in a zone or when to break off their route
- WR’s that catch the ball at the marker on 3rd down, then run 4 yards backwards
- WR’s dropping balls that hit them in the hands / chest, or tipping them or handing them to the DB for an INT
If you want to talk about evolving, lets start by evolving to where we can do all of the above stuff correctly that even Jr. High football teams can do competently. Then, when all that’s fixed, maybe we’ll know what wrinkles Leach has or has not added.
I would say his redzone play calling was better than average for sure. After watching this year and the last two years. Watching us struggle to put it in the end zone once we get to the red zone has been brutal. I will agree that play calling probably would have been better had he handed that over to Brian Johnson or an OC so that he could manage the whole game better. But as far as scheming his plays in rhythm he was and is still one of the best.
Long term we'll be ok. Gotta clean up locker room and one of those may be that "all-sec" RB (the all-sec never see the NFL RB). One bad apple can pull the whole group down.
Execution is the big thing now. QB is really playing poorly and making bad decisions but everyone on offense had a half-hearted effort against KY.
Execution is the big thing now. QB is really playing poorly and making bad decisions but everyone on offense had a half-hearted effort against KY.
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