I'm not going to identify the department.

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

I know an instructor at State that wanted to offer their class online because it would be a prime candidate for online instruction. The department said No, the class has to be face-to-face. After students starting testing positive for COVID-19, the department came back to them after the semester started to say they have to make lectures available online for students in quarantine and isolation (with no tech support btw).

A student contacted them to say that they were not comfortable unnecessarily coming on campus for a class that could be delivered virtually and asked for access to the online lectures. The department told the instructor that they have to require the student to come on campus and the online lectures are only meant for people in quarantine and isolation. So the instructor has to tell the student that they have to come on campus, a rule the instructor doesn't agree with.

Another student didn't ask but told the instructor that they wouldn't be coming to class until after Labor Day because they are visiting their grandparents and will not be unnecessarily exposing them. The department reluctantly told the instructor to allow the student to not come to the face-to-face class until after Labor Day but to make sure they come after Labor Day. "At least they told you ahead of time." So after having to tell one student that they have to come to campus, the instructor is now being told to allow a different student to not attend class.

In addition to not having autonomy over their class, the instructor isn't being supported in meeting the department's demands. All of these things could have been figured out this summer but are instead being figured out after the semester started. There also isn't consistent application of the rules.

I know other students in other departments who are enrolled in face-to-face classes, but the instructors are telling them that they aren't taking attendance and lectures can be viewed online. So there isn't consistency across campus either.

I'm curious if anyone else is aware of or hearing similar stories of unclear policies and inconsistent enforcement of policies.

 

[MarkDallas]

Not MSU, but I know of a private school here on the coast that told students they could distance learn if they have COVID but not if they have any other illness. So if you have an ear infection, no online school.

 

[Hugh's Burner Phone]

Not MSU, but I know of a private school here on the coast that told students they could distance learn if they have COVID but not if they have any other illness. So if you have an ear infection, no online school.

So spreading flu or stomach bug through school is perfectly fine? Sometimes I truly wonder about those in charge.

 

[HotMop]

How many Bitcoins does it take to buy an A without coming on campus?

 

[8dog]

It makes sense. They dont want kids just deciding they dont want to get out of bed so they tell the teacher they dont feel great and just zoom.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

It makes sense. They dont want kids just deciding they dont want to get out of bed so they tell the teacher they dont feel great and just zoom.

Explain why a student preferring to view an online lecture as opposed to unnecessarily attending a face-to-face lecture is something the school should police in 2020. I'll hang up and listen.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

How many Bitcoins does it take to buy an A without coming on campus?

View attachment 17511

 

[Shmuley]

I drive into the parking lot at Target and immediately I get an email from Target. Coincidence?

 

[8dog]

Im talking to the high school post. High schools are not online schools. In fact the interpersonal interaction is a huge part of it. Additionally most schools gave people the option to permanently go remote. They cant and dont want people just doing what they want on a day to day basis.

 

[FQDawg]

As someone who works on campus and who interacts with people in a variety of departments/colleges, my experience has been that the university is bending over backward to accommodate people (faculty, staff and students) however they need to be accommodated. I obviously don’t speak to everyone there but I my interactions would lead me to qualify what you’ve heard as the exception and not the rule.

 

[BogeyGolfer.sixpack]

I know an instructor at State that wanted to offer their class online because it would be a prime candidate for online instruction. The department said No, the class has to be face-to-face. After students starting testing positive for COVID-19, the department came back to them after the semester started to say they have to make lectures available online for students in quarantine and isolation (with no tech support btw).

A student contacted them to say that they were not comfortable unnecessarily coming on campus for a class that could be delivered virtually and asked for access to the online lectures. The department told the instructor that they have to require the student to come on campus and the online lectures are only meant for people in quarantine and isolation. So the instructor has to tell the student that they have to come on campus, a rule the instructor doesn't agree with.

Another student didn't ask but told the instructor that they wouldn't be coming to class until after Labor Day because they are visiting their grandparents and will not be unnecessarily exposing them. The department reluctantly told the instructor to allow the student to not come to the face-to-face class until after Labor Day but to make sure they come after Labor Day. "At least they told you ahead of time." So after having to tell one student that they have to come to campus, the instructor is now being told to allow a different student to not attend class.

In addition to not having autonomy over their class, the instructor isn't being supported in meeting the department's demands. All of these things could have been figured out this summer but are instead being figured out after the semester started. There also isn't consistent application of the rules.

I know other students in other departments who are enrolled in face-to-face classes, but the instructors are telling them that they aren't taking attendance and lectures can be viewed online. So there isn't consistency across campus either.

I'm curious if anyone else is aware of or hearing similar stories of unclear policies and inconsistent enforcement of policies.

I don't now about colleges in our state but most high schools gave parents/students a choice to distance learn or in-person and whatever choice they make they have to participate for nine-weeks. This way, students and parents can't randomly after three weeks say well, Timmy is now going to stay home etc...or If they chose distance learning when they get tired of Johnny being at home, they can't decide to send them to school after two weeks etc...There are no easy answers, but I think most students need in-person learning unless they are very bright and about to graduate...( 11th/12th graders)

 

[Len2003]

That's a crappy situation. Tell the instructor to Zoom all her classes, and she can record the Zoom session. Then, upload the session for the students.

 

[Uncle Ruckus]

I don’t think that’s the whole truth. You can still distance meant for regular illnesses, you’re just not counted as present. Distance learning is only for Covid related instances and it should be that way. If you have a cold, you can go to the doctor, get an excuse, and not be counted absent. If you want to sign in on that day you can. But if you choose to stay home for an ear ache you are going to be counted absent, regardless if you watch virtually or not, without a doctors excuse. Otherwise, everyone would be having ear aches.

 

[GloryDawg]

(Lets just shut every campus down nationwide. Close every dorm, every buildings except what is needed to teach virtually. If it can be done virtually think of the money the schools can save and pass that on to the students tuition. Less student loans. That seems to be the bitching point for graduates who have useless degrees.)************

 

[ababyatemydingo]

(Lets just shut every campus down nationwide. Close every dorm, every buildings except what is needed to teach virtually. If it can be done virtually think of the money the schools can save and pass that on to the students tuition. Less student loans. That seems to be the bitching point for graduates who have useless degrees.)************

Phoenix University has been handing out worthless virtual degrees for years

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

I don’t think that’s the whole truth. You can still distance meant for regular illnesses, you’re just not counted as present. Distance learning is only for Covid related instances and it should be that way. If you have a cold, you can go to the doctor, get an excuse, and not be counted absent. If you want to sign in on that day you can. But if you choose to stay home for an ear ache you are going to be counted absent, regardless if you watch virtually or not, without a doctors excuse. Otherwise, everyone would be having ear aches.

So if there is a virtual version of the lecture available do you think it should be available to all students? Or just some? The question is why require a paying student to attend a face-to-face lecture if the same lecture is available online? In my opinion, a student's reasoning is irrelevant. It may just be a preference. I haven't heard a good argument for why it makes sense for the school to require the student to attend a face-to-face lecture when the lecture is available online.

Also, in the case of State, some instructors are free to do exactly what I'm proposing: Make the lectures available online and not take attendance. If you want to come to the face-to-face lecture, great. If you would rather watch the same lecture online, also great. Should that not be allowed? Should there be consistency across campus?

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

As someone who works on campus and who interacts with people in a variety of departments/colleges, my experience has been that the university is bending over backward to accommodate people (faculty, staff and students) however they need to be accommodated. I obviously don’t speak to everyone there but I my interactions would lead me to qualify what you’ve heard as the exception and not the rule.

I'm glad that is your experience. I've spoken to faculty, staff, and students (both undergrad and grad) who have said that is not their experience: inconsistency across the board, including making it very difficult for some people with underlying conditions to work remotely when their jobs can be performed remotely. It isn't clear who is making the decisions.

Also, it isn't acceptable for policies to be mostly consistent. That reminds me of protests being described as mostly peaceful. If you are the student or employee that is being unfairly treated, it isn't comforting to know that most of the other students and employees are.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

Im talking to the high school post. High schools are not online schools. In fact the interpersonal interaction is a huge part of it. Additionally most schools gave people the option to permanently go remote. They cant and dont want people just doing what they want on a day to day basis.

That doesn't fundamentally change my question: If there is a virtual version of the lecture available do you think it should be available to all students?

As far as the interpersonal interaction aspect, that is changing the scenario. I've always said classes that need to be face-to-face should be face-to-face. My point only applies where that is not the case. The question is about classes where a teacher delivers a lecture to a room full of students. If that same lecture is available online, why should all students not have access to it?

 

[Uncle Ruckus]

It is available to all. It’s only excused if you are quarantined or opted out of in-person learning. It’s not that hard to understand. As a teacher, teaching to virtual learners and in the classroom simultaneously sucks. And I don’t mean it’s sucks as in I don’t like it, I mean it’s not as efficient. The more kids learning virtually the less efficient it becomes, so limiting virtual learning to only those out for Covid reasons is the right choice. You can’t just pick and choose when you want to go to school.

 

[8dog]

In the scenario im discussing they do all have access. But they have to decide one way or the other for a time certain. They cant hop in and out. That was my point in responding to another poster.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Explain why a student preferring to view an online lecture as opposed to unnecessarily attending a face-to-face lecture is something the school should police in 2020. I'll hang up and listen.

Hopefully you don’t have to have heart surgery one day from someone who took his schooling virtually.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

It is available to all. It’s only excused if you are quarantined or opted out of in-person learning. It’s not that hard to understand. As a teacher, teaching to virtual learners and in the classroom simultaneously sucks. And I don’t mean it’s sucks as in I don’t like it, I mean it’s not as efficient. The more kids learning virtually the less efficient it becomes, so limiting virtual learning to only those out for Covid reasons is the right choice. You can’t just pick and choose when you want to go to school.

I will rephrase the question: Should adults paying for an education be able to choose between the face-to-face lecture and a virtual lecture that is being made available to other students? I haven't heard a compelling argument for why some departments are saying No and some are saying Yes.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

In the scenario im discussing they do all have access. But they have to decide one way or the other for a time certain. They cant hop in and out. That was my point in responding to another poster.

I see. I can agree with that if the students have the choice.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

Hopefully you don’t have to have heart surgery one day from someone who took his schooling virtually.

Thank you for bringing the nuance. I have always said that instruction that needs to be face-to-face should be face-to-face.

 

[GloryDawg]

Phoenix University has been handing out worthless virtual degrees for years

I was only joking. I would be very upset if Miss State went to the PU way of doing things. However I will give them credit for helping Military who have college hours from several different schools. They allow them to transfer all those hours and only complete what is needed unlike a lot of schools that require a certain number of hours be completed at that University.

 

[Cooterpoot]

You guys keep falling for this dude's BS. Last week he was accusing schools of forcing kids to go virtual with a bait and switch conspiracy. Now he's saying a school won't make exceptions to let kids go virtual.

 

[Uncle Ruckus]

And my response wasn’t to anyone talking about college education. Reading comprehension is hard.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

And my response wasn’t to anyone talking about college education. Reading comprehension is hard.

Well, the original post was about higher education. And you referring to high school doesn't preclude you from answering my question. But I guess you won't. That's fine.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

You guys keep falling for this dude's BS. Last week he was accusing schools of forcing kids to go virtual with a bait and switch conspiracy. Now he's saying a school won't make exceptions to let kids go virtual.

I don't recall ever accusing schools of "forcing kids to go virtual". My prediction is that there will be enough outbreaks that some schools will go virtual, and there will be a narrative that it's the students' fault for not following guidelines we all know were never going to be followed. I'm not afraid to be wrong about that. What's your prediction Cooterpoot?

 

[paindonthurt_]

Do you want “autonomy” or consistency across departments?

Or do you want the departments to consistently allow for autonomy across the boss?

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

UPDATE: Apparently due to instructors and students complaining the department has changed their stance to now allow some sort of hybrid between face-to-face and virtual instruction at the discretion of the instructor, which is an improvement.

However, the instructor told me that while they are allowing this, the department is discouraging any changes to classes because "the students are already in a routine." This is frustrating to the instructors because they tried to address all these issues during the 3.5 months between the spring and fall semesters. The instructors see it as the department's fault that they are having to make changes after the start of the semester.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

Do you want “autonomy” or consistency across departments?

Or do you want the departments to consistently allow for autonomy across the boss?

I think it should be consistent across campus that instructors have say in how instruction is delivered. In some departments decisions are being made by people who are not in the classroom and are not delivering instruction. Others have given more autonomy to their instructors.

In previous posts I also used the word inconsistency in reference to instructors that weren't allowed to make decisions and were also being required to deliver inconsistent rulings to students. So in some cases there isn't even consistency within the same section of the same course.

 

[Hankp22]

Weird times

Nm

 

[RocketDawg]

They have a really nice football stadium but no team.

 

[T-TownDawgg]

Ha. Target.
The easiest way to flex on Starkvillians

 

[paindonthurt_]

But who decides if it should be face to face or not?

You?
The student?
The teacher?
The department?

Seems like there is a structural hierarchy. Let it work.

PEOPLE FIND REASONS TO GET UPSET.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

But who decides if it should be face to face or not?

You?
The student?
The teacher?
The department?

Seems like there is a structural hierarchy. Let it work.

PEOPLE FIND REASONS TO GET UPSET.

In the case referenced in the original post, the class can absolutely be virtual, and it's the instructor's preference. So why should the department require them to make the class face-to-face, require them to make virtual lectures available to quarantined/isolated students, and then not allow other students who prefer the virtual lecture to opt for that over the face-to-face lecture? If that's the solution that the structural hierarchy has produced, it should be reevaluated.

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

Don't ever speak ill of the Program. The Program is rock solid! The Program is sound!

 

[johnson86-1]

In the case referenced in the original post, the class can absolutely be virtual, and it's the instructor's preference. So why should the department require them to make the class face-to-face, require them to make virtual lectures available to quarantined/isolated students, and then not allow other students who prefer the virtual lecture to opt for that over the face-to-face lecture? If that's the solution that the structural hierarchy has produced, it should be reevaluated.

This is really simple. The value proposition that colleges are offering is murky. They aren't really charging kids a **** ton of money for the education/information. That **** is more or less available for free on the internet. Hell, for most classes, you could just show up without even being enrolled and sit through lectures. People don't do that because it's not the learning that you are really paying for. Part of what you are paying for is the credential. Part of what you are paying for is to be around a lot of other young people that are like you in an environment that allows for a **** ton of free time, unlike just going out and working. If they let classes move online, it emphasizes that the learning part of college can be provided at probably half or less of the current costs of tuition (at MSU; much less than half at other schools). It also risks devaluing the degree. Not that MSU or Ole Miss are prestigious degrees to have, but it's still a hell of a lot better than a degree from say Phoenix or other primarily online schools.

So in short, it is risky for the schools to allow online classes because of the potential that people will start asking questions about the bundle they are paying for and which parts are really worth it and whether there are other alternatives. When a college degree stops being seen as necessary for a good job, you will see a lot of people decide they can't really afford to pay current prices for what is essentially a four year consumption binge. And there are a lot of college employees with cushy and/or well paid jobs that can't afford for people to start getting reasonable about college.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

This is really simple. The value proposition that colleges are offering is murky. They aren't really charging kids a **** ton of money for the education/information. That **** is more or less available for free on the internet. Hell, for most classes, you could just show up without even being enrolled and sit through lectures. People don't do that because it's not the learning that you are really paying for. Part of what you are paying for is the credential. Part of what you are paying for is to be around a lot of other young people that are like you in an environment that allows for a **** ton of free time, unlike just going out and working. If they let classes move online, it emphasizes that the learning part of college can be provided at probably half or less of the current costs of tuition (at MSU; much less than half at other schools). It also risks devaluing the degree. Not that MSU or Ole Miss are prestigious degrees to have, but it's still a hell of a lot better than a degree from say Phoenix or other primarily online schools.

So in short, it is risky for the schools to allow online classes because of the potential that people will start asking questions about the bundle they are paying for and which parts are really worth it and whether there are other alternatives. When a college degree stops being seen as necessary for a good job, you will see a lot of people decide they can't really afford to pay current prices for what is essentially a four year consumption binge. And there are a lot of college employees with cushy and/or well paid jobs that can't afford for people to start getting reasonable about college.

I agree with all of this. This is the key issue. Trying to preserve a shaky value proposition is what is dictating a lot of decisions in the era of COVID, not safety or the best methods of instruction.