🔒Cop Pay

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mstateglfr

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Feb 24, 2008
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I would much rather change social services programs to find that money. There should be mandatory drug testing in order to receive benefits. I also think there should be some type of mandatory public service requirement (pick up trash on roadways, in city parks, etc.) in order to receive welfare for anyone not majorly disabled. There are way too many "free lunches" in this country to start with taking money from the military.

There are a lot of other govt. programs I would rather steal from too before military. It was mentioned on another post about the govt. waste especially at the federal level.

I do commend you on understanding that the money has to come from somewhere and we will have to give up something if we want to invest more in police services. I just think there are better places to go get it.
Why specifically target what you call 'welfare' recipients? Why not be consistent and apply the law to anyone receiving government assistance?
Farm subsidies, corporations, healthcare, tax breaks for child care or home mortgage, etc etc- these are all forms of welfare that for the most part manifest themselves as tax breaks instead of physical payments.

People would still have kids and houses without the tax breaks. Those childcare tax refunds are the government giving us money so we can spend it on taking care of our kids, so people should be drug tested since for some, that extra money is clearly going to fund drug use. Think of the children, oh the children!


Those who support drug testing welfare recipients(wic/foodstamp etc) need to explain why that specific group should be tested, but nobody else who receives government assistance should be tested.
I think that for many, their reasoning is based simply in hate for certain groups.
A corporate VP who has a coke and alcohol addiction who financially benefits from government rebates for childcare, homeownership, healthcare, and then also financially benefits in business from a whole slew of program and taxes should absolutely be drug tested if we are saying those who receive government benefits should be drug tested.
 

Hugh's Burner Phone

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Aug 3, 2017
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Cops and teachers should be paid more, but I'm not sure increasing the starting salary to $40-$45K really brings you a much different pool of candidates.

I think we'll see portions of the police force begin to transition into more of a social-worker type role. I heard it mentioned that the most common calls to the police involve a missing person (child) or a car accident. Does an officer really need to be armed to respond to those calls? I could see that changing, at least in some cities, in the future.

Yes they do. After a car wreck the one who thinks he was not at fault is usualy highly pissed off at the other and violence may be the result. It may take an armed deterrent to calm things down. Another reason is people calling 911 on false pretenses to lure LEO's to areas for ambush attacks. While it has not happened a lot (yet), it has happened and sending a LEO to respond to a call unarmed is just like sending a two legged mouse to a room full of cats.

Just ask yourself this question...In today's climate and attitudes towards police, how willing would you be to answer a call or pull somebody over without being armed?
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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Are you a teacher or married to a teacher? There are countless jobs that my wife could have that involve less work and more pay than teaching, and the educational workload in college would've been less. She loves teaching and having positive impacts on kid's lives, but it is NOT because she is "...paid pretty well...".

And there are countless jobs that involve more work and less pay and the same or more stringent college workload than teachers. Teachers get paid pretty well, really very strongly per hour, compared to other entry level positions requiring a four year degree. The difference is that a lot of those jobs offer more upside. So even if they start out working more and making the same or less than teachers, many of them in 20 years will make a lot more both per hour and absolutely, than teachers who have worked for 20 years.

But on the flipside, there are also a lot of people who work for 20 years, have stressful jobs, have to work a good bit more, and at the end of the day, they make the same or not much more per year, and they aren't anywhere near retiring in 5 years with 50% of the average of their four high years.

I think we'd be better off if we focused more on making sure good teachers are paid more, but at the same time, this mantra that teachers are poorly paid probably unnecessarily influences a lot of people away from considering teaching. Like a lot of government positions, good performers are underpaid and poor performers are overpaid, but if you think teaching would be a satisfying profession, there are worse financial options out there than choosing a profession that will pay you around 80% of the median household income as a 23 year old (assuming you don't get a local supplement) when you are not working 2000 hours a year. That's not a terrible deal before considering the fact that you will have a pension that will in theory allow you the option to retire at 50 with half your salary.
 

dorndawg

Heisman
Sep 10, 2012
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Why do do they need to explain it? They could not be more clear: they hate the poor, and view poverty as a sin.
 

horshack.sixpack

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Oct 30, 2012
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You have proven that you don't know what teaching involves by this "...really, very strongly per hour...". The ONLY way that you can come close to justifying that is if you believe that teachers work just school hours, during the school year. I've lived with it for for decades. I'll not argue what I know as fact from experience.
 

turkish

Junior
Aug 22, 2012
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Why specifically target what you call 'welfare' recipients? Why not be consistent and apply the law to anyone receiving government assistance?
Farm subsidies, corporations, healthcare, tax breaks for child care or home mortgage, etc etc- these are all forms of welfare that for the most part manifest themselves as tax breaks instead of physical payments.

People would still have kids and houses without the tax breaks. Those childcare tax refunds are the government giving us money so we can spend it on taking care of our kids, so people should be drug tested since for some, that extra money is clearly going to fund drug use. Think of the children, oh the children!


Those who support drug testing welfare recipients(wic/foodstamp etc) need to explain why that specific group should be tested, but nobody else who receives government assistance should be tested.
I think that for many, their reasoning is based simply in hate for certain groups.
A corporate VP who has a coke and alcohol addiction who financially benefits from government rebates for childcare, homeownership, healthcare, and then also financially benefits in business from a whole slew of program and taxes should absolutely be drug tested if we are saying those who receive government benefits should be drug tested.
Suits me.
 

horshack.sixpack

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Oct 30, 2012
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You have to know this simply isn't true. It's a sense of fairness. I don't know of anyone in my circle that would advocate for not helping the poor, directly, or through effective government assistance. I do know of some who submit themselves to random drug tests in order to remain employed and wonder why able-bodies folks who won't work don't have to at least do similar. That is a fair question. We can't be so one-sided that we pretend that perpetual unemployment isn't the scheme of many, applying for jobs just often enough to stay on unemployment, but refusing to ever show up for a job if offered. It happens. A lot.

Then you have reason to believe that part of our government seeks to keep entitlements flowing to the base to ensure re-election. I mean those entitlements create such a sense of political entitlement mindset that Joe Biden can actually get away with telling black people that they aren't black if they don't vote for him. Holy slavemaster Batman!

Stalin (the one who killed 15MM people through genocide) once held a meeting with his top leaders and he was holding a live chicken. He proceeded to one by one, very painfully, pluck every feather from that chicken while the chicken reacted in agony. Once done, he placed the shivering, now naked, chicken on the floor and then began to drop feed for it. It followed the feed right to him. His point was that if you control the food supply, you control the people no matter how much pain you inflicted on them.

Now don't ask me how conservative Mississippians can seriously deride government handouts when we likely wouldn't have a paved road in the state (that's hyperbole lest you not recognize it) because we are a net drain on the federal government, long being in a position of taking way more than we pay in...
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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You have proven that you don't know what teaching involves by this "...really, very strongly per hour...". The ONLY way that you can come close to justifying that is if you believe that teachers work just school hours, during the school year. I've lived with it for for decades. I'll not argue what I know as fact from experience.

How many professionals to you know that only work the official opening hours? And if your wife has worked much more, that's great, and probably a decent identifier of those teachers who are good and underpaid over time. But you don't know what is fact from experience. There is data on how much teachers work that is all over the place b/c it's difficult to get accurate numbers from self reporting, but it still appears to be less than other professionals.

https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/10.1162/EDFP_a_00133
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brow...to average,to nonteachers working 43.2 hours.
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf
 
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oxfordrebel22

Sophomore
Oct 31, 2013
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You have proven that you don't know what teaching involves by this "...really, very strongly per hour...". The ONLY way that you can come close to justifying that is if you believe that teachers work just school hours, during the school year. I've lived with it for for decades. I'll not argue what I know as fact from experience.

Good teachers likely work many more hours. He's very obviously advocated that good teachers should be paid more. There are a lot of wonderful teachers, who are making about 25% of their worth. There are also a lot of teachers that wound up getting a basic degree, out of laziness, used it to wind up teaching something or another just to get a job, and aren't worth half of what they're making. Then you factor in them getting a week at Thanksgiving, two weeks or more at Christmas, a week for Spring Break, and 10 weeks in the summer.. and, yeah, they're definitely overpaid. And those teachers/coaches are the ones that are preventing people like your spouse from earning what they deserve. Which is his entire point.
 

horshack.sixpack

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Oct 30, 2012
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I'm sure your right. I'm gonna go check on what I really had for breakfast this morning. I mean, I think I know. Or maybe you can just let me know that as well, since having literally no experience seems to make you better qualified in other matters.
 

horshack.sixpack

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Oct 30, 2012
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And if you raised pay, then you would attract better teachers, and not be begging for people with a pulse to please get some cert that allows them in the classroom. You could then hold them accountable to perform because if you had to fire them you would have others actually wanting the job. The actual task of firing a state employee not withstanding.
 

dorndawg

Heisman
Sep 10, 2012
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- are some people just sorry and don't want to work? Sure. But shitting on "welfare queens" is an old trope; it's not new and remains a popular pastime in some circles. I imagine you know this to be true. Obviously we are in unprecedented times, but during precedented times unemployment benefits last 20-30 weeks in most states, rendering this statement moot: "We can't be so one-sided that we pretend that perpetual unemployment isn't the scheme of many"

- You also do not address the fact that in states that have tried drug testing for welfare/SNAP, they found VERY low positive rates - the fraud they rooted out was minuscule compared to the program costs.

- If your point is that drug testing is asinine for many (NOT all) jobs, and is used to hold American's livelihoods and healthcare over their heads, then I completely agree with you.

- Just a pro tip here but probably don't use a story comparing people to literal animals when you are trying to convince me no one is looking down on the poor.

- Your last post paragraph is spot on.
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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I'm sure your right. I'm gonna go check on what I really had for breakfast this morning. I mean, I think I know. Or maybe you can just let me know that as well, since having literally no experience seems to make you better qualified in other matters.

Well, if you are going to tell me you what you had and that you therefore know what around 3,000,000 other people who are not you had, honestly, I'm going to question that too and will probably give more credence to what some statistics say.
 

NWADawg

Senior
May 4, 2016
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Why do do they need to explain it? They could not be more clear: they hate the poor, and view poverty as a sin.

This statement is both self righteous and incorrect. I don't by any means hate the poor. I've been poor, like $8/week to cover all food and extras on a budget kinda poor, people shooting guns outside my door in drug deals gone bad kinda poor. I went an entire winter without heat but I didn't expect the world to support me. I busted my ***, worked 3 jobs, took 8 years to pay my way through college and made myself not poor. I did get a little help through financial aid/pell grants and I would not have hesitated for a second to take a drug test to qualify.

What I am against is enabling those who chose to stay poor so that they can receive benefits. I am against people who chose to pay for drugs, alcohol, tobacco, etc. and then expect me to subsidize their food and rent. I am against able bodied people standing on a corner asking for money instead of applying for a job (major issue in NWA).

I believe in helping those that can't help themselves. I believe in helping those that are busting their hump to do all they can and just need some temporary help. I even believe in helping long term those that have physical/mental/other disabilities that justify needing help. These people are not the ones that will have an issue taking a drug test in order to get the help they need.

From a biblical standpoint, we are told to help the "widows and orphans". The context of the times are those that would not be able to provide for themselves. Paul also tell the church in Thessolonica concerning other church members, "let those who won't work not eat."
 

dorndawg

Heisman
Sep 10, 2012
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This statement is both self righteous and incorrect. I don't by any means hate the poor. I've been poor, like $8/week to cover all food and extras on a budget kinda poor, people shooting guns outside my door in drug deals gone bad kinda poor. I went an entire winter without heat but I didn't expect the world to support me. I busted my ***, worked 3 jobs, took 8 years to pay my way through college and made myself not poor. I did get a little help through financial aid/pell grants and I would not have hesitated for a second to take a drug test to qualify.

What I am against is enabling those who chose to stay poor so that they can receive benefits. I am against people who chose to pay for drugs, alcohol, tobacco, etc. and then expect me to subsidize their food and rent. I am against able bodied people standing on a corner asking for money instead of applying for a job (major issue in NWA).

I believe in helping those that can't help themselves. I believe in helping those that are busting their hump to do all they can and just need some temporary help. I even believe in helping long term those that have physical/mental/other disabilities that justify needing help. These people are not the ones that will have an issue taking a drug test in order to get the help they need.

From a biblical standpoint, we are told to help the "widows and orphans". The context of the times are those that would not be able to provide for themselves. Paul also tell the church in Thessolonica concerning other church members, "let those who won't work not eat."


A hit dog'll holler...
 

horshack.sixpack

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Oct 30, 2012
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100% agree that people dump on the poor without even knowing how they got in that situation. Very few of the people dumping on poor/homeless have ever been in a situation in life that they cannot make a single mistake and overcome the consequences. I'm not advocating for testing.I rarely advocate for any new government program. Turns out they are inefficient at nearly everything attempted.
 
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dorndawg

Heisman
Sep 10, 2012
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Bcash2

Redshirt
Sep 20, 2012
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From a purely fiscal standpoint, what you describe just isn't a huge suck of taxpayer money. There are countless other places where taxpayer dollars are being fraudulently used and abused, that make welfare fraud look like the microscopic potatoes that they are. Hell look at the whole USM/Brett Favre scandal as an example.
 

Irondawg

Senior
Dec 2, 2007
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In the end cops and teachers are both to commended because they are forced to constantly deal with some of the worst of society on a near daily basis because their job requires it.

I can only imagine the mental grind and how you have to condition yourself to function in those environments.

The truth is both don’t pay enough to constantly attract enough good candidates to fill the necessary headcount so standards are lowered because the systems require a certain number of people to function.

These should be among the most honorable professions in our world.
 

oxfordrebel22

Sophomore
Oct 31, 2013
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In the end cops and teachers are both to commended because they are forced to constantly deal with some of the worst of society on a near daily basis because their job requires it.

I can only imagine the mental grind and how you have to condition yourself to function in those environments.

The truth is both don’t pay enough to constantly attract enough good candidates to fill the necessary headcount so standards are lowered because the systems require a certain number of people to function.

These should be among the most honorable professions in our world.

I detect no lies.
 

RocketDawg

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Oct 21, 2011
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LEOs may need a higher starting salary. Teachers certainly do not; they are already paid pretty well per hour for the educate required. Good teachers should have the opportunity to earn more.

LEOs are really difficult. There is a lot of work they do that you can look at and say sure, less than $15 an hour makes sense. There is some work they do where they'd ideally have crazy high interpersonal skills/conflict management skills, which usually only comes with pretty high general intelligence. I've heard tapes of cops doing interviews/interrogations where they are highly skilled at getting the suspect to basically openly confess to each element of the relevant crime without them even realizing they are doing it. That takes a lot of practice on top of pretty good intelligence, plus knowing all the elements of the crime to begin with. And of course not all of these can be segregated across different positions. Your newbie working a beat may end up in a situation where you really want a highly trained and experienced person, and I don't think there's a way to avoid that. I guess train them to try to deescalate and delay until help comes, but obviously that doesn't work for some dangerous situations.

Don't know enough to know how to improve LEOs, but I do think it's probably similar to teachers, in that it would help if we gave good ones more opportunities to make more money, and cut bad ones loose earlier.

How many hours are you assuming that teachers work?
 

Maroon Eagle

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May 24, 2006
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Many cops I know live like they make 6 figures, not sure how they do it. I know the immediate response is "credit," but I know several who have lived high on the hog for decades, I guess it hasn't caught up with them yet?

But it will.

My family had a mom & pop store back in the 70s & 80s and we offered credit on groceries to good customers. My father got really upset when one police officer declared bankruptcy.
 

greenbean.sixpack

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Oct 6, 2012
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But it will.

My family had a mom & pop store back in the 70s & 80s and we offered credit on groceries to good customers. My father got really upset when one police officer declared bankruptcy.

Back in the good ole days when the store would hang the bad checks on the front of the cash register!
 

archdog

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Aug 22, 2012
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It would give them more incentive to not do dumb stuff.

More 'education' is not the answer (education in what, exactly? mental health? FART!), but it will certainly succeed in making them more liberal.

Why would being smarter and more educated make someone more liberal? Since you agreed and clearly stated that was the correlation.
 

archdog

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Aug 22, 2012
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How many hours are you assuming that teachers work?

It depends. Do they work more hours than say an architect that is just starting out at 40k a year? Do they have as much training? Are they required to take 5 years of college, 3 years of internship, a 7 part test that some cannot pass even after 15 years of experience, and then what is the expertise that they have in their classes?

As far as the hours they work. Let's see, if they work 7-3 everyday, 5 days a week, that is 40 hours. Let's see, if they have to grade papers for 1.5 hours a night, make that 47.5 hours. Then there is the lesson plans, for the first year. Generating test for the first year. Let's say they work 50 hours a week during school time.

Now added to that, they do get about 3 months off a year. Which is pretty nice. So that leaves 9 months @ 200 hours a month. That is 1800 hours in a year. Not bad.

A typical professional averages 50+ hours a week as well. But they work 49-50 weeks a year. That is 2500 hours a year at a minimum.

So based on those numbers, a teacher should make roughly 72% of what an architect makes coming out of college.

40-45k for new architects. 32,500 for a new teacher.

Also note, teachers get state retirement based on their highest 3 years earning. That is pretty dang good deal. They also have an opportunity to put into their own 401k if they have extra scratch left.

There is a reason a ton of people start in engineering in college and transfer into early education in college. They pay for the easier path through college by having to deal with ******** kids.
 

archdog

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Aug 22, 2012
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I say all of that, and teacher's should start around 45 minimum. They also should have way more intense training in their area they are going to teach, and more experience on how to teach prior to starting. The good teachers understand how to engage students, the bad ones.....well they are bad ones.
 

oxfordrebel22

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Oct 31, 2013
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It depends. Do they work more hours than say an architect that is just starting out at 40k a year? Do they have as much training? Are they required to take 5 years of college, 3 years of internship, a 7 part test that some cannot pass even after 15 years of experience, and then what is the expertise that they have in their classes?

As far as the hours they work. Let's see, if they work 7-3 everyday, 5 days a week, that is 40 hours. Let's see, if they have to grade papers for 1.5 hours a night, make that 47.5 hours. Then there is the lesson plans, for the first year. Generating test for the first year. Let's say they work 50 hours a week during school time.

Now added to that, they do get about 3 months off a year. Which is pretty nice. So that leaves 9 months @ 200 hours a month. That is 1800 hours in a year. Not bad.

A typical professional averages 50+ hours a week as well. But they work 49-50 weeks a year. That is 2500 hours a year at a minimum.

So based on those numbers, a teacher should make roughly 72% of what an architect makes coming out of college.

40-45k for new architects. 32,500 for a new teacher.

Also note, teachers get state retirement based on their highest 3 years earning. That is pretty dang good deal. They also have an opportunity to put into their own 401k if they have extra scratch left.

There is a reason a ton of people start in engineering in college and transfer into early education in college. They pay for the easier path through college by having to deal with ******** kids.

Pretty much every person I know in college that dropped out of engineering, accounting, or some form of pre-med wound up getting some form of an education degree. And they everyone mocked how easy their classes were while those of us in the aforementioned programs worked hard at school. So, I guess that’s why I have a hard time drumming up a lot of sympathy for a lot of teachers. They took the easiest path forward (outside of dropping out) and now want to complain about being underpaid, despite getting 14-16 weeks a year off. There are a lot of great teachers. And there are a lot that are crap.
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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How many hours are you assuming that teachers work?

I'm going off the time of use surveys showing something like 42 hours a week when school is in and somewhere around an average of 20 hours per week when school is not in, so somewhere around that 1800 hour mark.

An interesting thing in the data is that older teachers work more, which I would have guessed the opposite, as I would have thought they had their lesson plans down over different courses and would be more likely to get to teach the same courses each year (whereas younger teachers might be mroe likely to move from one course or grade to another based on needs or preferences as spots come open). I'd be curious as to whether that's just differences in expectations across age groups or if younger teachers were better trained in school for some of the bureaucracy stuff that older teachers are having to learn on the fly.

ETA: also, I think it's clear enough from the sentence before, but that strong pay per hour is for starting salary. Again, lots of people come out with four year degrees and make less than 40 while working 45-50 or more hours per week. They have more upside, but not all of them realize that upside.
 
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NWADawg

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May 4, 2016
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I'm going off the time of use surveys showing something like 42 hours a week when school is in and somewhere around an average of 20 hours per week when school is not in, so somewhere around that 1800 hour mark.

An interesting thing in the data is that older teachers work more, which I would have guessed the opposite, as I would have thought they had their lesson plans down over different courses and would be more likely to get to teach the same courses each year (whereas younger teachers might be mroe likely to move from one course or grade to another based on needs or preferences as spots come open). I'd be curious as to whether that's just differences in expectations across age groups or if younger teachers were better trained in school for some of the bureaucracy stuff that older teachers are having to learn on the fly.

ETA: also, I think it's clear enough from the sentence before, but that strong pay per hour is for starting salary. Again, lots of people come out with four year degrees and make less than 40 while working 45-50 or more hours per week. They have more upside, but not all of them realize that upside.

My guess would be that so much of teaching is computer driven now. It's how they track grades, assignments, attendance.... The younger generations just seem to be much faster on computers even when the older ones are well trained.
 

mstateglfr

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Feb 24, 2008
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Pretty much every person I know in college that dropped out of engineering, accounting, or some form of pre-med wound up getting some form of an education degree. And they everyone mocked how easy their classes were while those of us in the aforementioned programs worked hard at school. So, I guess that’s why I have a hard time drumming up a lot of sympathy for a lot of teachers. They took the easiest path forward (outside of dropping out) and now want to complain about being underpaid, despite getting 14-16 weeks a year off. There are a lot of great teachers. And there are a lot that are crap.

Holy **** this is just disgusting.

1- pay is not linear with difficulty in obtaining a degree. It isnt that way in many fields. There are people with masters degrees who arent paid well and people with associates degrees who are paid well.

2- claiming teachers(your friends specifically and all teachers in general when applying your example) took the easiest path forward is utter nonsense. Many chose the path because it is what they want. Some chose the path because after trying something else first, they found they arent as good a fit as hoped. That on its own isnt taking the easiest path.

3- the 14-16 weeks off a year is not totally accurate. It isnt totally inaccurate, but a lot of teachers have in service hours during some of that time off. They also have an incredibly rigid work schedule and cant just take random days off thru the year like I can. I want October the 13th off...done! I want April the 6th off...done! I couldnt do that as a teacher here.

4- while the barrier of entry to become a teacher may be low in some states, its higher in others. And many teachers obtain advanced degrees- you have elementary teachers with masters degrees and multiple professional certifications. None of that is an easy path, even if you view it as the easiest path forward.

5- teachers help kids learn, are social workers, are defacto parents, are mentors, are proverbial punching bags for misdirected anger and hate, and are mediators. It is an exhausting profession and the engineers I know that sit behind a desk and have meetings comparatively have the easier path.

6- In addition to all the hats a teacher wears, many work in the evenings at home and have professional development or continuing education requirements to fulfill, which is often done in the weeks you mention teachers have off.

7- everyone knows that a marketing degree is actually the easiest path forward if you switch out of a major that isnt for you. Come on- get it right.





Admittedly, my post is based on what I directly know about my teachers in my area and my state as a whole. I do acknowledge that the bar to become a teacher is significantly higher here than in many other states, so my comments may be skewed a bit or not totally applicable to other parts of the country.
 

NWADawg

Senior
May 4, 2016
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Admittedly, my post is based on what I directly know about my teachers in my area and my state as a whole. I do acknowledge that the bar to become a teacher is significantly higher here than in many other states, so my comments may be skewed a bit or not totally applicable to other parts of the country.

Back in the day, the ME dept used to sell t-shirts that had something like below on them. I thought they were hilarious.

Lim (College of Engineering) = College of Business
QPA->0

ETA: I kept the wrong quote. This is what I meant to keep.
7. everyone knows that a marketing degree is actually the easiest path forward if you switch out of a major that isnt for you. Come on- get it right.
 
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dorndawg

Heisman
Sep 10, 2012
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Holy **** this is just disgusting.

1- pay is not linear with difficulty in obtaining a degree. It isnt that way in many fields. There are people with masters degrees who arent paid well and people with associates degrees who are paid well.

2- claiming teachers(your friends specifically and all teachers in general when applying your example) took the easiest path forward is utter nonsense. Many chose the path because it is what they want. Some chose the path because after trying something else first, they found they arent as good a fit as hoped. That on its own isnt taking the easiest path.

3- the 14-16 weeks off a year is not totally accurate. It isnt totally inaccurate, but a lot of teachers have in service hours during some of that time off. They also have an incredibly rigid work schedule and cant just take random days off thru the year like I can. I want October the 13th off...done! I want April the 6th off...done! I couldnt do that as a teacher here.

4- while the barrier of entry to become a teacher may be low in some states, its higher in others. And many teachers obtain advanced degrees- you have elementary teachers with masters degrees and multiple professional certifications. None of that is an easy path, even if you view it as the easiest path forward.

5- teachers help kids learn, are social workers, are defacto parents, are mentors, are proverbial punching bags for misdirected anger and hate, and are mediators. It is an exhausting profession and the engineers I know that sit behind a desk and have meetings comparatively have the easier path.

6- In addition to all the hats a teacher wears, many work in the evenings at home and have professional development or continuing education requirements to fulfill, which is often done in the weeks you mention teachers have off.

7- everyone knows that a marketing degree is actually the easiest path forward if you switch out of a major that isnt for you. Come on- get it right.





Admittedly, my post is based on what I directly know about my teachers in my area and my state as a whole. I do acknowledge that the bar to become a teacher is significantly higher here than in many other states, so my comments may be skewed a bit or not totally applicable to other parts of the country.


I generally agree with all your points except I find number 3 hard to believe. Teachers can't take scheduled days off?
 

mstateglfr

All-American
Feb 24, 2008
16,937
6,772
113
I generally agree with all your points except I find number 3 hard to believe. Teachers can't take scheduled days off?

Fair enough, it is a really crazy reality and tough to conceptualize since its seems so extreme. In my state, it is negotiated at the district level, so it varies from district to district.
The school district my kids attend allows for 2 personal days per school year for teachers. I consider 2 days to essentially be them having a rigid schedule.
 

oxfordrebel22

Sophomore
Oct 31, 2013
1,928
134
63
Holy **** this is just disgusting.

1- pay is not linear with difficulty in obtaining a degree. It isnt that way in many fields. There are people with masters degrees who arent paid well and people with associates degrees who are paid well.

2- claiming teachers(your friends specifically and all teachers in general when applying your example) took the easiest path forward is utter nonsense. Many chose the path because it is what they want. Some chose the path because after trying something else first, they found they arent as good a fit as hoped. That on its own isnt taking the easiest path.

3- the 14-16 weeks off a year is not totally accurate. It isnt totally inaccurate, but a lot of teachers have in service hours during some of that time off. They also have an incredibly rigid work schedule and cant just take random days off thru the year like I can. I want October the 13th off...done! I want April the 6th off...done! I couldnt do that as a teacher here.

4- while the barrier of entry to become a teacher may be low in some states, its higher in others. And many teachers obtain advanced degrees- you have elementary teachers with masters degrees and multiple professional certifications. None of that is an easy path, even if you view it as the easiest path forward.

5- teachers help kids learn, are social workers, are defacto parents, are mentors, are proverbial punching bags for misdirected anger and hate, and are mediators. It is an exhausting profession and the engineers I know that sit behind a desk and have meetings comparatively have the easier path.

6- In addition to all the hats a teacher wears, many work in the evenings at home and have professional development or continuing education requirements to fulfill, which is often done in the weeks you mention teachers have off.

7- everyone knows that a marketing degree is actually the easiest path forward if you switch out of a major that isnt for you. Come on- get it right.





Admittedly, my post is based on what I directly know about my teachers in my area and my state as a whole. I do acknowledge that the bar to become a teacher is significantly higher here than in many other states, so my comments may be skewed a bit or not totally applicable to other parts of the country.

You make a lot of really good points, several of which I agree with wholeheartedly. I'll also admit that my post came off more inflammatory than I really meant for it to. So, I do truly apologize if I have offended anyone. Much like your own self admitted bias, I am probably biased myself. I am biased by having several well known acquaintances who literally switched to education (or something in that general path) after finding other degree paths too difficult. They then proceeded to mock their class workload and talk about how laughable some of their classes were. And I am not talking about 1 or 2 people. It was several.. but, and I tried to acknowledge this in my post, but didn't give it the credence it deserves.. you are exactly right. There are many, many teachers who are incredibly intelligent, could have done almost anything, and chose to teach as their calling. And they are to be commended. But, they also did it knowing the pay, etc. and are the ones who rarely complain. All of us want to make more money, that's human nature. But, in my experience, it seems like the ones who complain the loudest about pay, are the ones that I know take it the least serious. It's like every profession, the bad ones make things way worse for the good ones. But, the low bar (at least in MS) to become a teacher has allowed that "bad" number to get disproportionately high.

On the time off - you're right, what I said is mostly accurate. Yes, they have a little more trouble getting random days off, but they get 5 days per year (at least in MS) on top of the 14-16 weeks per year off. So, it's not like it's impossible. I wasn't really trying to diminish their time off, but just point out that when you factor in all the time off, it makes their pay drastically better. There are a TON of people that would take a 20-30% pay cut, if they got 15 weeks a year off, concentrated around holidays and the summer time, plus 5 additional sick/vacation days. That's all I was trying (poorly) to illustrate.

As far as dealing with kids and their parents.. hell yeah that's hard. I wouldn't want to do it. And I feel like it likely gets worse each year, as my spoiled generation is now having children and spoiling them even further. But, I also knew I didn't want to deal with the general public, so I chose a career path to where I wouldn't have to. So, it's not like teachers should be surprised when they have to deal with those things.

And as far as those teachers that obtained advanced degrees, and work very hard to better themselves - I commend them, and they should be paid more than they are, in most cases. That's why I have agreed with everyone on this thread that has talked about how good teachers and good cops should be rewarded. I know that's somewhat subjective, but good leadership can recognize and reward the cream of the crop.

I have had some WONDERFUL teachers that helped me growing up in ways I could never put into words. But, I also had a bunch that it was painfully obvious were there to draw a paycheck and be in their car heading home at 3:01. And, I believe those teachers, combined with the people I knew who got into the profession because of laziness/lack of ambition, have slanted my feelings towards teachers. And that's not fair to the good teachers... and I'll acknowledge that. So, again, my apologies if I have offended anyone who is a good teacher, or is close to a good teacher. But, if you're offended and you're one of the bad ones.. good.
 

MadDawg.sixpack

Redshirt
May 22, 2006
3,358
0
0
Re: Cop Pay

.
Holy **** this is just disgusting.

1- pay is not linear with difficulty in obtaining a degree. It isnt that way in many fields. There are people with masters degrees who arent paid well and people with associates degrees who are paid well.

There's always exceptions. But let's not pretend there's not a correlation between harder majors and better pay. Sure you could get your doctorate in Women's Studies and might have a hard time finding a good paying job. That's not typical.

2- claiming teachers(your friends specifically and all teachers in general when applying your example) took the easiest path forward is utter nonsense. Many chose the path because it is what they want. Some chose the path because after trying something else first, they found they arent as good a fit as hoped. That on its own isnt taking the easiest path.

I'm not going to argue this either way. There are easier majors. But elementary education may be one of the easiest degrees to obtain.

3- the 14-16 weeks off a year is not totally accurate. It isnt totally inaccurate, but a lot of teachers have in service hours during some of that time off. They also have an incredibly rigid work schedule and cant just take random days off thru the year like I can. I want October the 13th off...done! I want April the 6th off...done! I couldnt do that as a teacher here.

A teacher taking days off is not always easy but it's not as rigid as you make it sound. At least not here. Taking time off around state tests is pretty much forbidden. Other than that, it's pretty easy. But keep in mind, if you don't take the days you are given, they accumulate. I think my wife said she has about 6 weeks of sick pay banked. She will get paid for that eventually. That's not very common in the private sector.

4- while the barrier of entry to become a teacher may be low in some states, its higher in others. And many teachers obtain advanced degrees- you have elementary teachers with masters degrees and multiple professional certifications. None of that is an easy path, even if you view it as the easiest path forward.

Getting your masters or further is very beneficial for teachers. It means an automatic pay increase. So it usually pays for itself in a year. That doesn't usually happen in the private sector unless it comes with a promotion.

5- teachers help kids learn, are social workers, are defacto parents, are mentors, are proverbial punching bags for misdirected anger and hate, and are mediators. It is an exhausting profession and the engineers I know that sit behind a desk and have meetings comparatively have the easier path.

Teaching is a noble profession. They do tireless work and deal with problems most of us couldn't fathom and wouldn't want to deal with.

6- In addition to all the hats a teacher wears, many work in the evenings at home and have professional development or continuing education requirements to fulfill, which is often done in the weeks you mention teachers have off.

Most professional development occurs during the school year now. And I think they have a 2-3 day workshop the week before school starts. Again, this is certainly different in every state and every school district.
 
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