🔒Cop Pay

[NWADawg]

There has been several posts related to more training for cops, especially conflict training. There has also been several references to fear of cops quitting because it's not worth it.

In my town, cops start at $36k. I think this is pretty typical. Some poorer communities may pay less. That's not a lot to work weird hours and put your life at risk. And you aren't going to recruit some top talent at that rate.

So, should cops pay be higher? Are you willing to pay more in taxes to cover that expense? Would it generate more/better candidates?

 

[57stratdawg]

Cops and teachers should be paid more, but I'm not sure increasing the starting salary to $40-$45K really brings you a much different pool of candidates.

I think we'll see portions of the police force begin to transition into more of a social-worker type role. I heard it mentioned that the most common calls to the police involve a missing person (child) or a car accident. Does an officer really need to be armed to respond to those calls? I could see that changing, at least in some cities, in the future.

 

[Bcash2]

It’s obviously different town to town, but re: higher taxes to pay for better salaries, I generally don’t think we have revenue problems, but rather spending problems. (I.e. wasteful spending) Whenever people talk about needing to raise taxes, that’s what I usually think. We have the money, we’re just spending it the wrong places.

 

[SwampDawg]

Cops and teachers should be paid more, but I'm not sure increasing the starting salary to $40-$45K really brings you a much different pool of candidates.

I think we'll see portions of the police force begin to transition into more of a social-worker type role. I heard it mentioned that the most common calls to the police involve a missing person (child) or a car accident. Does an officer really need to be armed to respond to those calls? I could see that changing, at least in some cities, in the future.

I would say absolutely they need to be armed. Typically their presence is keyed by one phone call from one person, and it is may not be factual, or truthful, or comprehensive. Don't throw a person into a unknown situation that could cost them their life. In some areas of some cities it's dangerous to even be there.

 

[NWADawg]

It’s obviously different town to town, but re: higher taxes to pay for better salaries, I generally don’t think we have revenue problems, but rather spending problems. (I.e. wasteful spending) Whenever people talk about needing to raise taxes, that’s what I usually think. We have the money, we’re just spending it the wrong places.

I agree with the spending being an issue state and federal level, maybe even in large city level. Most small towns struggle to survive. My town is blessed by its location as basically a suburb of Fayetteville, AR. We spend conservatively and usually add $250k - $300k in surplus to general fund each year. But, most of the other small towns around us struggle to make ends meet. The don't take care of infrastructure like streets because there simply isn't funding for it.

And sending cops to training is expensive. Video glasses (ideal) and body cams are expensive. The software to run it are expensive. Many small towns by out of date used equipment for cops from other larger towns with the larger town upgrades.

 

[My Bru]

Yes. If you want better candidates, you have to pay more. Period.

One other idea I've seen from the defunders, that I actually like, is to quit having police officers respond to domestic disputes and such. Send mental health counselors for that. Of course, this has NOTHING to do with the recent shootings and is just another ploy for liberals to attach to it to pretend like they are reasonable, so meh.

 

[FreeDawg]

If you want to raise cop pay the first thing you should do is require a college education. My local sheriff department doesn’t have many guys with over a high school education. Or you could make the academy an actual real education in LE. The national average of training hours to be a cop is 840. Most states barber programs require 1,500. Let that sink in. There needs to be intensive personality testing from the get go and make the continued education training also include a mental health aspect. Throwing more money in hopes of attracting new candidates will not work.

 

[My Bru]

If you want to raise cop pay the first thing you should do is require a college education. My local sheriff department doesn’t have many guys with over a high school education. Or you could make the academy an actual real education in LE. The national average of training hours to be a cop is 840. Most states barber programs require 1,500. Let that sink in. There needs to be intensive personality testing from the get go and make the continued education training also include a mental health aspect. Throwing more money in hopes of attracting new candidates will not work.

It would give them more incentive to not do dumb stuff.

More 'education' is not the answer (education in what, exactly? mental health? FART!), but it will certainly succeed in making them more liberal.

 

[aTotal360]

Teachers need to be paid more and administration needs to be paid less.

 

[aTotal360]

I still say the shittiest paid job for the amount of hate you get is a game warden. Starting out, those guys get paid peanuts and are hated if they are doing their job.

 

[tbaydog]

Teachers need to be paid more and administration needs to be paid less.

Exactly, Education is funded properly. The Administration are spending the teachers money!

 

[forestdepth]

Teachers should be paid more. Cops have to do less training then barbers and hair stylists.

 

[oxfordrebel22]

I live in a smaller town, and have had a couple cops come to me for financial advice. And I’ll be honest with you, I was genuinely shocked when I saw what they made. It was nowhere near $36K. In fact, I felt terrible because the first time one showed me a pay stub I said “ok, so is this weekly take home or bi-weekly?”. He hesitated and said “oh no, that’s per month”. (Insert foot in mouth)

I have conflicting opinions on this entire cop situation. I think massive reform is needed and that it’s going to take a lot of resources to do it. I think cops, in general, have developed into a group that have placed themselves above the law, and in many instances terrorize those that they’re sworn to protect. But.. I’ll also say, I understand why they may become jaded, because they do not make NEAR ENOUGH to put up with the **** they put up with. The system is to main culprit, and it’s becoming more corrupt every day.

If we want high performing people in those jobs, then you need to provide them with resources, and insure that you pay them enough to attract people with high-level skill sets. And many, many cops are very talented, wonderful people. But many are not, because the qualifications have been lowered and lowered because it’s hard to attract someone to that type of job when you start them out at $9.50 an hour.

 

[BoomBoom.sixpack]

There has been several posts related to more training for cops, especially conflict training. There has also been several references to fear of cops quitting because it's not worth it.

In my town, cops start at $36k. I think this is pretty typical. Some poorer communities may pay less. That's not a lot to work weird hours and put your life at risk. And you aren't going to recruit some top talent at that rate.

So, should cops pay be higher? Are you willing to pay more in taxes to cover that expense? Would it generate more/better candidates?

Employee cost of Camden officers was $182k let year before they disbanded the union. That cut it to $100k. don't know how much of that was salary.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/camden-didnt-defund-the-police/

 

[FreeDawg]

It would give them more incentive to not do dumb stuff.

More 'education' is not the answer (education in what, exactly? mental health? FART!), but it will certainly succeed in making them more liberal.

Education as in occupational training you stupid 17. And there is absolutely a mental health/emotional aspect of policing that needs to be addressed.

 

[Irondawg]

Well this will be interesting then because the unions and those that want to defund and reform are usually aligned politically.

 

[AROB44]

Well this will be interesting then because the unions and those that want to defund and reform are usually aligned politically.

Bingo....Unions are a very large part of the problem....police and teachers. Both make it extremely difficult if not impossible to terminate a union member. Throwing more money at either will do nothing.

 

[Upyurs]

Yes. If you want better candidates, you have to pay more. Period.

One other idea I've seen from the defunders, that I actually like, is to quit having police officers respond to domestic disputes and such. Send mental health counselors for that. Of course, this has NOTHING to do with the recent shootings and is just another ploy for liberals to attach to it to pretend like they are reasonable, so meh.

You have no idea. Domestic disputes are some of the most dangerous if not the most dangerous situations law enforcement encounters. Those are the last situations you want an unarmed counselor being responsible for.

 

[Upyurs]

Teachers should be paid more. Cops have to do less training then barbers and hair stylists.

Make sure and call your barber when someone breaks in your home.

 

[oxfordrebel22]

Make sure and call your barber when someone breaks in your home.

I know people that have had situations like this that their barber would have probably handled better.

 

[mstateglfr]

In response to all the comments about how little training it takes to be a cop, ill counter with it being an issue in some places, but other places its a lot of training- both initially and ongoing.

My brother in law is in training multiple days a month. Been that way for 15 years.
Training for working with mentally unstable, working with kids, working with elderly, working with minorities, working with tweakers, etc.
Training for close contact, training for diffusing situations, training on how to be yelled and threatened without response, training for seeing the worst of society.


I am genuinely shocked that such training isn't in all towns and cities. Don't give a 17 how small or broke the town is- continued training should be the floor and not the ceiling.

 

[dawgdr]

"Cops and teachers should be paid more, but I'm not sure increasing the starting salary to $40-$45K really brings you a much different pool of candidates.

I think we'll see portions of the police force begin to transition into more of a social-worker type role. I heard it mentioned that the most common calls to the police involve a missing person (child) or a car accident. Does an officer really need to be armed to respond to those calls? I could see that changing, at least in some cities, in the future."

Well I say yes on MVA, just this weekend a off duty Wildlife officer stopped at wreck to help and was shot, so yes I think in today age of road rage that if someone is at the scene being able to defend yourself is a must!!

 

[oxfordrebel22]

In response to all the comments about how little training it takes to be a cop, ill counter with it being an issue in some places, but other places its a lot of training- both initially and ongoing.

My brother in law is in training multiple days a month. Been that way for 15 years.
Training for working with mentally unstable, working with kids, working with elderly, working with minorities, working with tweakers, etc.
Training for close contact, training for diffusing situations, training on how to be yelled and threatened without response, training for seeing the worst of society.


I am genuinely shocked that such training isn't in all towns and cities. Don't give a 17 how small or broke the town is- continued training should be the floor and not the ceiling.

This is another reason I’m conflicted on this situation. Cops are placed in impossible situations. There’s no way one person can possibly be equipped to handle all those scenarios you’ve laid out. But, once you cut funding for mental health specialists, social workers, drug rehabilitation, etc. etc. it somehow winds up on a cops plate to deal with. If we could take 1% of military spending and put it into some of those resources, nationwide, it would be a huge difference.

My general opinion of cops is not good, because I’ve seen and know of way too many situations where they abuse their authority, take advantage of those who are the most vulnerable, and utilize gang mentality to force people to comply with often illegal requests/commands. They also place themselves above the law (many of them, not all). Their job is to protect and serve. But, with all that said, I can 100% recognize and empathize with the fact that their jobs are very difficult, and they are put in some hard situations. Some of their own doing, but many times through no fault of their own.

 

[mstateglfr]

Being a cop is similar to a lawyer in that the few bad ones ruin the name for all the good ones.
My cop brother in law was required to work OT on Saturday, so he was on shift for 18 hours. The OT was due to continued protests. They have calmed down, thankfully.
2 weeks ago, he got paid to stand still and not react as people yelled in his face, pointed angrily at him, and basically acted terribly to him and others who hadn't specifically done anything wrong.
The mind17 that has to happen for cops is more than I could handle for sure.

A few days agonhe was getting a haircut and the stylist asked what he does for work. He changed the subject enough times and got onto different topics because he didn't want to deal with potential awkwardness/anger towards cops while sitting getting his hair cut.

Its 17ing insane- all of it.
Its insane that people are treated so poorly by some police. Its also insane that anyone should be embarrassed or concerned just because they help protect communities.

Policies like nyc's stop and frisk are abhorrent and only further divide instead of improve relations.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Being a cop is similar to a lawyer in that the few bad ones ruin the name for all the good ones.
My cop brother in law was required to work OT on Saturday, so he was on shift for 18 hours. The OT was due to continued protests. They have calmed down, thankfully.
2 weeks ago, he got paid to stand still and not react as people yelled in his face, pointed angrily at him, and basically acted terribly to him and others who hadn't specifically done anything wrong.
The mind17 that has to happen for cops is more than I could handle for sure.

A few days agonhe was getting a haircut and the stylist asked what he does for work. He changed the subject enough times and got onto different topics because he didn't want to deal with potential awkwardness/anger towards cops while sitting getting his hair cut.

Its 17ing insane- all of it.
Its insane that people are treated so poorly by some police. Its also insane that anyone should be embarrassed or concerned just because they help protect communities.

Policies like nyc's stop and frisk are abhorrent and only further divide instead of improve relations.

Please don't tell me that the % of bad cops is close to that of bad lawyers. I'll be on the de-fund them track too!***

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

Teachers should be paid more. Cops have to do less training then barbers and hair stylists.

Don't immediately go after the "low hanging fruit," exercise skepticism and common sense. Most new officers/deputies under go a year's worth of additional training after graduating from whatever law enforcement academy.

 

[dorndawg]

Please don't tell me that the % of bad cops is close to that of bad lawyers. I'll be on the de-fund them track too!***

Some of us been on that one for YEARS

 

[NWADawg]

If we could take 1% of military spending and put it into some of those resources, nationwide, it would be a huge difference.

I would much rather change social services programs to find that money. There should be mandatory drug testing in order to receive benefits. I also think there should be some type of mandatory public service requirement (pick up trash on roadways, in city parks, etc.) in order to receive welfare for anyone not majorly disabled. There are way too many "free lunches" in this country to start with taking money from the military.

There are a lot of other govt. programs I would rather steal from too before military. It was mentioned on another post about the govt. waste especially at the federal level.

I do commend you on understanding that the money has to come from somewhere and we will have to give up something if we want to invest more in police services. I just think there are better places to go get it.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

I live in a smaller town, and have had a couple cops come to me for financial advice. And I’ll be honest with you, I was genuinely shocked when I saw what they made. It was nowhere near $36K.

Many cops I know live like they make 6 figures, not sure how they do it. I know the immediate response is "credit," but I know several who have lived high on the hog for decades, I guess it hasn't caught up with them yet?

 

[Imadick]

Teachers should be paid more. Cops have to do less training then barbers and hair stylists.

Ignorance is on full display!

 

[johnson86-1]

There has been several posts related to more training for cops, especially conflict training. There has also been several references to fear of cops quitting because it's not worth it.

In my town, cops start at $36k. I think this is pretty typical. Some poorer communities may pay less. That's not a lot to work weird hours and put your life at risk. And you aren't going to recruit some top talent at that rate.

So, should cops pay be higher? Are you willing to pay more in taxes to cover that expense? Would it generate more/better candidates?

LEOs may need a higher starting salary. Teachers certainly do not; they are already paid pretty well per hour for the educate required. Good teachers should have the opportunity to earn more.

LEOs are really difficult. There is a lot of work they do that you can look at and say sure, less than $15 an hour makes sense. There is some work they do where they'd ideally have crazy high interpersonal skills/conflict management skills, which usually only comes with pretty high general intelligence. I've heard tapes of cops doing interviews/interrogations where they are highly skilled at getting the suspect to basically openly confess to each element of the relevant crime without them even realizing they are doing it. That takes a lot of practice on top of pretty good intelligence, plus knowing all the elements of the crime to begin with. And of course not all of these can be segregated across different positions. Your newbie working a beat may end up in a situation where you really want a highly trained and experienced person, and I don't think there's a way to avoid that. I guess train them to try to deescalate and delay until help comes, but obviously that doesn't work for some dangerous situations.

Don't know enough to know how to improve LEOs, but I do think it's probably similar to teachers, in that it would help if we gave good ones more opportunities to make more money, and cut bad ones loose earlier.

 

[EagleDawg97]

Teachers need to be paid more and administration needs to be paid less.

I would add one small caveat. Good teachers need to be paid more, bad teachers need to be held accountable and convinced to go do something else for a living. At my kids public school there are only a handful of good teachers that work hard to improve the lives of the kids they teach. The rest are there for the minimum time working, and summers off to play. We need folks actually interested in educating in these roles.

 

[maroonmadman]

Read Radley Balko's "Rise of the Warrior Cop." It goes into great detail as to the reasons and history as to why we are where we are at this time and it also offers some solutions. You could also read Jill Lavoy's "Ghettoside" if you want to read about cops who do their jobs well and by the book. Both books give the reader some insight as to the problems police face and some solutions.

Stop militarizing the police. This has lead to an 'us vs them' mentality. The polices job is to 'Protect and serve' not search and destroy. Very few PDs need armored vehicles and associated weaponary.

Community based policing. Have cops actually walking a beat and getting to know the people they are paid to protect and serve. Some cities have begun to incoporate this idea, notably San Diego, with positive results.

Increased training for officers. Particularly in the area of how to de-escalate a volital situation.

Cross the 'Thin Blue Line.' Police officers are reluctant to call out each other. The good cops need to start throwing the bad cops under the bus. The officer in Minn. kneeled on that guys neck for almost 8 minutes chocking him to death. None of the other cops there stepped in. 2 were rookies. This cop had numerous complaints against him but the FOP and his fellow officers saw to it he would face no consequences.

End no knock search warrants. Literally thousands of innocent peaole have been killed and maimed by theses since Regan pushed this garbage through in his zeal to fight the war on drugs. It was a bad idea then and still is. ALSO search warrants need to face more vetting. All too many times a judge grants a search warrant based upon flimsey evidence or claims by 'paid informants.' Look at the case of the EMT lady who was shot 8 times in a no knock raid based upon some extremely dubious statements made to obtain said warrant.

Require body cams and require said cam to be operative ANY time a LEO interacts with the public. No exceptions.

A link to a PD that did change. https://www.politico.com/news/magaz...q3_1ryjhF5QnSHqUy7GtMY3kYAOFbsNYWZRU5qi_UBfqA

 

[Bcash2]

Can we throw civil asset forfeiture in there?

 

[Nunya.sixpack]

Cops and teachers should be paid more, but I'm not sure increasing the starting salary to $40-$45K really brings you a much different pool of candidates.

wow. I actually agree with this. Cops should be paid more and teachers should be paid more. However, in both cases, standards need to improve greatly on those being hired. It's going to be difficult to figure out which police candidate will fire on an arm or unarmed perp, since neither instance is getting accepted. Teachers definitely need to be improved, even just based on our home schooling experiment a few weeks back or what the bored teachers are doing searching social media likes of people trying to get random people canceled.

 

[patdog]

Yeah, that ****'s not even close to being Constitutional, no matter what the Supreme Court ruled.

 

[maroonmadman]

Can we throw civil asset forfeiture in there?

I would agree to that as well. Make LEOs PROVE that said assets had been acquired via illicit activity. Civil asset forfeiture, in its' present state, is nothing more than a money grab for local PDs. Politicians like it because it assist local PDs in acquiring funds/material that the politicians won't have to pay for and therefore this system is wide open to abuse, which has happened all to often.

 

[oxfordrebel22]

Read Radley Balko's "Rise of the Warrior Cop." It goes into great detail as to the reasons and history as to why we are where we are at this time and it also offers some solutions. You could also read Jill Lavoy's "Ghettoside" if you want to read about cops who do their jobs well and by the book. Both books give the reader some insight as to the problems police face and some solutions.

Stop militarizing the police. This has lead to an 'us vs them' mentality. The polices job is to 'Protect and serve' not search and destroy. Very few PDs need armored vehicles and associated weaponary.

Community based policing. Have cops actually walking a beat and getting to know the people they are paid to protect and serve. Some cities have begun to incoporate this idea, notably San Diego, with positive results.

Increased training for officers. Particularly in the area of how to de-escalate a volital situation.

Cross the 'Thin Blue Line.' Police officers are reluctant to call out each other. The good cops need to start throwing the bad cops under the bus. The officer in Minn. kneeled on that guys neck for almost 8 minutes chocking him to death. None of the other cops there stepped in. 2 were rookies. This cop had numerous complaints against him but the FOP and his fellow officers saw to it he would face no consequences.

End no knock search warrants. Literally thousands of innocent peaole have been killed and maimed by theses since Regan pushed this garbage through in his zeal to fight the war on drugs. It was a bad idea then and still is. ALSO search warrants need to face more vetting. All too many times a judge grants a search warrant based upon flimsey evidence or claims by 'paid informants.' Look at the case of the EMT lady who was shot 8 times in a no knock raid based upon some extremely dubious statements made to obtain said warrant.

Require body cams and require said cam to be operative ANY time a LEO interacts with the public. No exceptions.

A link to a PD that did change. https://www.politico.com/news/magaz...q3_1ryjhF5QnSHqUy7GtMY3kYAOFbsNYWZRU5qi_UBfqA

This is an incredibly good post. I don't think we should defund the police, that's just way too drastic of an action. But.. I do believe that widespread reform is necessary. That reform should start, first and foremost, with every cop in the US being retrained that their job is to "PROTECT AND SERVE". For a bunch of reason that I am sure are outlined in "The Rise of the Warrior Cop" (which I am fixing to order, by the way, so thank you), the cops and the general public have entered into a very adversarial relationship. That's good for no one. Cops have lost sight of the fact that their job is to protect and serve the innocent. Their job is not to pursue and entrap and entice criminals or enforce irrelevant laws.

I have been blessed with an extremely good family. I am fortunate, and I recognize that. I have had situations, both personally, and with my parents, where we have interacted in law enforcement. In every one of those situations, we have been the victim of a crime. Within 3 minutes of interacting with them, without fail, we have been treated like criminals ourselves. And I'm not being dramatic.. it's BAD. I don't think that's because all of those cops are jerks, I think that's because how those cops have been trained and from what they have observed. They are so used to this adversarial relationship, that they can't break from that mentality, despite the situation. In one particular situation, my parents were robbed.. when the cops showed up, my dad had a pistol laying on the kitchen table, and the cops (with hands on their guns) immediately went to asking him why he felt the need to keep a loaded handgun in his home. Do you see the irony there? You are clinging to your gun, while a 60 year old man sits on his porch, unarmed, and quizzing him why he needs a gun (in the next room) to feel safe in his home, AFTER HE HAD JUST BEEN ROBBED. It's insanity.

I love the idea of getting cops back out working their beats. And I look forward to reading about San Diego's success with implementing that. The community should know their officers. The officers should know their community. Sitting outside of a neighborhood waiting to see a car that "doesn't seem to belong" is not policing your community. It's terrorizing it, while racially profiling.

I also agree 100% that the "thin blue line" mentality is a major issue. And it's not one that will be easily fixed. I travel a lot with my job and listen to a lot of podcasts, and it's amazing the number of times that cops commit heinous crimes, and the investigations are hampered so, so much because of that mentality. The District Attorney's also have to work WAY too closely with the LEO's, and it makes them (because they're human, too) very very hesitant to give the OK on investigations and charges against LEO's. And, like you said, that "brotherhood" also makes it so difficult for them to call one another out. Especially in the current "Cops vs. the world" environment we live in. This is a very broken system.. and a lot of work needs to be done. But, it's very important for us as a society to put that work in and figure it out.

 

[FQDawg]

Here's more good reading on cop culture.

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759.

I had an uncle I was close with who was in law enforcement before he passed away. I think he'd agree with a lot of the things in this article.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Are you a teacher or married to a teacher? There are countless jobs that my wife could have that involve less work and more pay than teaching, and the educational workload in college would've been less. She loves teaching and having positive impacts on kid's lives, but it is NOT because she is "...paid pretty well...".