500K on the honor code???

My Bru

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The are misplaced idealists, looking for a utopia that does not exist. The problem is that so many think that people are inherently good. They aren't. It's the most fundamental basic truth, proven over and over, but it's dismissed because it's not evolutionary theory.
 

horshack.sixpack

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Oct 30, 2012
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Personally, I think that the above the law culture has more to do with the current situation than nearly anything else. Police don't hold police accountable to the law. There needs to be some way to change the fact that officers mostly act with impunity and only get called to the carpet for major offenses.

But, if you read the article you realize that the data is 3 years old and inconclusive: "That might be the case with Camden’s homicide drop, which, while encouraging, has hardly transformed the city’s overall numbers. “It’s progress, it’s not success,” Thomson said. “We still have extreme challenges that keep us up at night and spring us out of bed in the morning.”

Indeed, Camden’s violent crime rate in 2017 remained dire enough to place the city at number four on Neighborhood Scout’s annual list of America’s most dangerous cities. The number of nonfatal shooting hit incidents has dropped 45 percent since 2012—but is back up in 2017 from last year’s levels. Meanwhile, aggravated assaults with a firearm have gotten more frequent in the past three years.


The numbers themselves can be potentially misleading: Homicide rates, for example, aren’t necessarily a complete measure of urban violence. Just because fewer people are dying from gunshot wounds doesn’t mean fewer people are getting shot: It could also mean they’re getting better treatment, faster. One of Thomson’s Camden policies, nicknamed “Scoop and Go,” may be at work here, which mandates officers to personally drive victims to the hospital if ambulance wait times are too long. That saves lives, without really addressing the source of the violence itself. (Another possible factor: More victims are just getting to the hospital faster by calling an Uber.)"
 

Bcash2

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Sep 20, 2012
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Neither is iron-fisted enforcement. Hopefully, a sweet spot of higher mutual respect can be found.
 

Irondawg

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Dec 2, 2007
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It's an interesting ready but I think it makes some leaps in it's analysis. Ideally you have mutual respect between the community and police and you have both groups policing themselves to some degree. Neighbors take pride in their community and get involved either personally or by calling the police if anything appears to be going wrong. Police are professional and helpful as much as they can be in the situation but also hold each other accountable for their attitudes and actions. If you want to be respected as a profession, team, organization, race, etc. etc. you have to find a way to not let the worst of you become how the world views you. That can be really difficult as we're seeing now on a lot of fronts.

Every media slant piece can successfully find "some" image or video that proves their point even though it may only represent 1% of the people present. Maybe I'm overly naive but seems most people in most situations in life seem to get along pretty well.
 

patdog

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May 28, 2007
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I doubt they’re going about it in the right way. But it’s pretty clear the Minneapolis PD needs a major overhaul & rebuild.
 

WilCoDawg

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Neither is iron-fisted enforcement.
What ever happened to Obama’s call for self-responsibility and consequences to actions?
I know this statement isn’t PC, but does anyone think that Floyd would’ve still been murdered by the cop if he had just gone into custody? Of course he didn’t deserve to die, but is it “iron-fisted” to enforce laws?
Also, how did everyone become mind readers and know that the cop killed Floyd because Floyd was black? The cop’s past definitely indicates he’s an *******, but how has it been proven that he murdered Floyd because Floyd was black?
Sorry if I’m making some of you think a little harder than you have since 4th grade. Flame away!
 

Bcash2

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I honestly have no idea what you're talking about with Obama. I was just making a statement of how I think police/community relationships would be ideally.

FWIW, I personally don't think that the cop had any intention of killing Floyd. If you have actual intentions of murdering someone, you don't do it on camera. I think he's probably just an ******* and was incapable of considering that maybe was he was doing was excessive, and wanted to prove that he had the power. That lead to the death of a man and it's gonna haunt him for the rest of his life.

I think that putting your knee on someones neck for 8 minutes while they are already handcuffed and laying on the ground with two other grown men holding them down is iron fisted. Enforcing laws isn't inherently iron-fisted. It's the way that you enforce said laws that determines if it's iron-fisted or appropriate.
 

WilCoDawg

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The rush on toilet paper should’ve proven people can’t self-control.
 

WilCoDawg

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My comment on self-responsibility was directed to owning up to the consequences of one’s actions which sometimes means iron-fisted actions coming down. My apologies for misinterpreting that.

So it’s interesting that you obviously feel the death of Floyd doesn’t warrant all of these BLM protests.

I'm confused On how we’re supposed to enforce laws equally if we don’t enforce them properly. How is enforcing a black&white law “iron-fisted”? Please provide an example.
 

Bcash2

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Sep 20, 2012
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I didn't give a stance on the protests and didn't intend to imply anything. Just because you're not iron-fisted doesn't mean you can't enforce laws. I think it's possible to enforce laws properly without excessive use of force. An example would be arresting George Floyd if need be, but without putting your knee on his neck for 8 minutes. In other cases, the laws themselves are "iron-fisted". For example some would say the "three strikes you're out laws" were iron-fisted. Another maybe more common example could be a speeding ticket. Let's say you're in a 55mph construction zone with "doubled fines" and you're doing 56. If a cop wanted to, they could pull you over for speeding and smack you with a big fine. But 99.99% of cops wouldn't do that. It would be heavy handed/ iron-fisted if they did.
 

WilCoDawg

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You inadvertently did opine by saying you don’t think the cop wasn’t being racist which is the premise of all the protests and riots.

The 3-strikes law isn’t iron-fisted. It’s a motivator to stop getting in trouble. Just like parole. Or do you think parole is iron-fisted as well. How many chances should one receive before one proves that they can abide by simple laws?

Speeding is such a subjective crime. That’s why you normally get a 5-10mph cushion. Maybe if it were “strictly enforced”, we all might drive a lot more cautiously to a point that Memaw approves and could drive in the left lane harassment-free.
 

mstateglfr

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From what Ive read, the plan isnt to eliminate police and live on an honor code.
The goal is to create a more socially involved police force, and example being instead of having police deal with social calls(where they arent always the best trained), perhaps social workers do those calls. Also, more involved neighborhoods and community buy in is another example.

So if thats the goal, then I doubt the plan is for an honor code.
 

thatsbaseball

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May 29, 2007
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Again, this is all causing more segregation of races and classes. White AND black flight will leave the lawless, the poor and the helpless behind. Businesses will close and dwindling tax revenues will make shrinking police budgets inevitable instead of an option. People will always seek safety for themselves and their families and the poor souls left behind will suffer. But rock on progs .... rock on.
 
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DAWG61

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Feb 26, 2008
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The 3-strikes law is a total failure unless you're all about prison for profit. Then it's big business.
 

Bcash2

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Sep 20, 2012
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You inadvertently did opine by saying you don’t think the cop wasn’t being racist which is the premise of all the protests and riots.

No, I did not say that. I said...

FWIW, I personally don't think that the cop had any intention of killing Floyd.

Whether he was acting from racial bias or not, I have no clue. Hell, the cop himself might not even know. I was simply stating that I don't really think he thought "I'm gonna put my knee on this guy's neck so that he suffocates and dies."

Also, speeding is not a "subjective crime". There are literally signs on the road explicitly stating the law, which most of us then willfully break.

ETA: sorry I had to come back to this other part too...

You asked:
How many chances should one receive before one proves that they can abide by simple laws?

Didn't the guy that killed Floyd have one killing and 17 other complaints under his belt? I think a lot of what this is about is that regular civilians are held to this standard you describe, but cops often are not. They abuse their power with impunity because of powerful police unions and a "don't rat" culture. Bad cops are often just shuffled around but never fired or face any real discipline. That needs to change if they want citizens to have more faith in and respect towards Police Departments.
 
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My Bru

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Again, this all causing more segregation of races and classes. White AND black flight will leave the lawless, the poor and the helpless behind. Businesses will close and dwindling tax revenues will make shrinking police budgets inevitable instead of an option. People will always seek safety for themselves and their families and the poor souls left behind will suffer. But rock on progs .... rock on.
This is exactly the result.

Not only that, but the crime-ridden areas left behind will end up having to pay more for police, which attracts the adrenaline junkies looking for action, which in turns results in more violence between cops and criminals.

The progs will then blame institutional racism aGAIN because reasons. Only a matter of time before the virtue signalers go after the military and the toksik maskulenitty it breeds. Right now it's still virtuous to honor the soldiers, but that's the next domino to fall.
 
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Sep 26, 2012
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A little more recent article (2 yrs), with crime data for the last decade. Violent crime has decreased. What's interesting is that the PD rebuild in 2013 resulted in almost doubling the police force, numbers which remain about the same today. More of a police presence on the ground in the neighborhoods, which I agree can do alot for police/community relations. The police chief is quoted in the article as saying the biggest reason for the results is resources (as in more police on the ground, as in more budget $$$).

“As far as the change that has taken place, the number one difference is resources,” Camden County Police Chief Joe Wysocki told TAPinto Camden. “Cops count and police matter, so by almost doubling the amount of officers on the street that has given us a much larger footprint to focus on community engagement and creating a dialogue with residents that has been missing for decades in the city.”

Juxtapose this with LAPD considering stripping up to $150M out of police budget to direct toward communities..........

https://www.tapinto.net/towns/camde...icles/camden-sees-crime-drop-over-past-decade
 

My Bru

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Feb 7, 2020
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A little more recent article (2 yrs), with crime data for the last decade. Violent crime has decreased. What's interesting is that the PD rebuild in 2013 resulted in almost doubling the police force, numbers which remain about the same today. More of a police presence on the ground in the neighborhoods, which I agree can do alot for police/community relations. The police chief is quoted in the article as saying the biggest reason for the results is resources (as in more police on the ground, as in more budget $$$).

“As far as the change that has taken place, the number one difference is resources,” Camden County Police Chief Joe Wysocki told TAPinto Camden. “Cops count and police matter, so by almost doubling the amount of officers on the street that has given us a much larger footprint to focus on community engagement and creating a dialogue with residents that has been missing for decades in the city.”

Juxtapose this with LAPD considering stripping up to $150M out of police budget to direct toward communities..........

https://www.tapinto.net/towns/camde...icles/camden-sees-crime-drop-over-past-decade
GET THOSE FACTS OUTTA HERE
 

paindonthurt_

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Jun 27, 2009
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Lot of ways to stop killings by the police. White killings and black killings.

1 easy one that puts it in control of the individual over 99% of the time is DO EXACTLY WHAT THE POLICE TELL YOU.
 

atomic dawg

Junior
Apr 4, 2019
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I honestly have no idea what you're talking about with Obama. I was just making a statement of how I think police/community relationships would be ideally.

FWIW, I personally don't think that the cop had any intention of killing Floyd. If you have actual intentions of murdering someone, you don't do it on camera. I think he's probably just an ******* and was incapable of considering that maybe was he was doing was excessive, and wanted to prove that he had the power. That lead to the death of a man and it's gonna haunt him for the rest of his life.

I think that putting your knee on someones neck for 8 minutes while they are already handcuffed and laying on the ground with two other grown men holding them down is iron fisted. Enforcing laws isn't inherently iron-fisted. It's the way that you enforce said laws that determines if it's iron-fisted or appropriate.


https://www.usnews.com/news/obama/a...mas-speech-to-the-naacp-centennial-convention
I think this is what he is referencing regarding personal responsibility. Jesse Jackson gave it 0 of 5 stars.

"Such a terrible speech, I would castrate someone "
- Jesse Jackson
 

atomic dawg

Junior
Apr 4, 2019
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They used the words "dismantle the police". Maybe they are looking for a kinder, gentler word for police. Maybe the po-po are rebranding. Where we dont have people to enforce laws, we just have suggestions made by social facilitators and if you dont like their suggestion...its okay. We're all just misunderstood, right? ????????? We let it go. And Im open to this experiment in a community that is not my own. Maybe it works. I hope it does. But lets not confuse what is happening. Its a move toward self governance. That everyone will follow social norms and just "do the right thing". Its a beautiful idea. So beautiful its Utopian. We are trusting that each individual will make the correct decision when faced with it. Do you trust that? I want to. But I dont.
 
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mstateglfr

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Feb 24, 2008
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Lot of ways to stop killings by the police. White killings and black killings.

1 easy one that puts it in control of the individual over 99% of the time is DO EXACTLY WHAT THE POLICE TELL YOU.

Yes, this would significantly reduce shootings by police.
But do you really not comprehend that the issue is some segments of our population see themselves as being targeted by the police at a disproportionate rate?
If there is never any pushback, there is never any change.

This post is not me saying there should be pushback. I'm not saying there shouldn't be pushback.

I am responding to you because your post makes it seem like you don't understand a significant issue- that disproportionate focus is being placed on groups due to inherent characteristics. Therefore in many situations- the police shouldn't be making someone do what they say to begin with.

At what point or rather how does change happen if everyone complies to every order, even when orders are unjust?
 

boatsandhoes

Junior
Sep 6, 2012
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Exactly what will happen. People with means will haul *** to somewhere else safe. Businesses that get torched will not rebuild in areas where this rioting, looting happens.
 

JungRebel

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Aug 23, 2012
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Hell he said he would get in the car 4 minutes before he stopped breathing. There were four cops to one civilian in cuffs. They had every opportunity to apprehend him without killing him. I hear what you're saying but it does not remotely apply in this situation.
 

RocketDawg

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Oct 21, 2011
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No, I did not say that. I said...



Whether he was acting from racial bias or not, I have no clue. Hell, the cop himself might not even know. I was simply stating that I don't really think he thought "I'm gonna put my knee on this guy's neck so that he suffocates and dies."

Also, speeding is not a "subjective crime". There are literally signs on the road explicitly stating the law, which most of us then willfully break.

ETA: sorry I had to come back to this other part too...

You asked:


Didn't the guy that killed Floyd have one killing and 17 other complaints under his belt? I think a lot of what this is about is that regular civilians are held to this standard you describe, but cops often are not. They abuse their power with impunity because of powerful police unions and a "don't rat" culture. Bad cops are often just shuffled around but never fired or face any real discipline. That needs to change if they want citizens to have more faith in and respect towards Police Departments.

He had something like 18 other complaints, but I don't know if one involved a killing. I also don't know how normal or how unusual it is for cops to have complaints filed against them. Maybe 1 per years is a norm.

Otherwise, I agree. Cops should be held to at least the same standards of conduct as the rest of us, maybe even higher. And some of them just do things to show their "power" - I don't think that's debatable. We see them almost every day speeding, not using signals, and driving recklessely without lights or sirens. Basically, there's no room for police abuse of power. They can use force or other unusual things, but only when necessary.
 

RocketDawg

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This is exactly the result.

Not only that, but the crime-ridden areas left behind will end up having to pay more for police, which attracts the adrenaline junkies looking for action, which in turns results in more violence between cops and criminals.

The progs will then blame institutional racism aGAIN because reasons. Only a matter of time before the virtue signalers go after the military and the toksik maskulenitty it breeds. Right now it's still virtuous to honor the soldiers, but that's the next domino to fall.

It is now, but it certainly wasn't during Viet Nam and for several years afterward. Military members would be spat on. Appreciating the military is definitely a permanent thing.
 

RocketDawg

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From what Ive read, the plan isnt to eliminate police and live on an honor code.
The goal is to create a more socially involved police force, and example being instead of having police deal with social calls(where they arent always the best trained), perhaps social workers do those calls. Also, more involved neighborhoods and community buy in is another example.

So if thats the goal, then I doubt the plan is for an honor code.

That approach might be OK as long as it's not carried too far. But I don't think that's what the intent of many is. Otherwise, instead of using words like 'dismantle' they be saying 'improve' or 'reform'.
 
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