Hummm

[Shamoan]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics/us-intelligence-virus-started-chinese-lab/index.html

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/coronavirus-wuhan-lab-china-compete-us-sources


There is increasing confidence that COVID-19 likely originated in a Wuhan laboratory not as a bioweapon, but as part of China's effort to demonstrate that its efforts to identify and combat viruses are equal to or greater than the capabilities of the United States, multiple sources who have been briefed on the details of early actions by China's government and seen relevant materials tell Fox News.


This may be the "costliest government coverup of all time," one of the sources said.
“The sources believe the initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, and that "patient zero" worked at the laboratory, then went into the population in Wuhan.”

Our resident leftist virologists won’t like this. Maybe this theory has legs...maybe not...enjoy the links

 

[Jeffreauxdawg]

My first dealings with importing commodities from China was in 2007... My mentor in that world told me when dealing with the Chinese the most important thing to understand is that when they say yes, they are really shaking their heads no.

Definitely a kick the golf ball back in to the fairway kind of people.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

China has always been lying POS...America has sold its soul for 25 years to China... Trump needs to tell China we aren’t paying you any more money and get your companies out of US....
China Lied..... Americans Died

 

[NWADawg]

Unfortunately, politics of the last 25 years have us so dependent on China that we can't just cut ties. Trump took the 1st step when the recent adjustment in tariffs with China. I hope he continues to take incremental action to break that dependence. Now we need American companies to start making all of the necessities like medical supplies and some of the want to haves like electronics and appliances. Then, we can completely kick those lying POSs out of our economy.

 

[Raiderdawg.sixpack]

Is it possible that came from a laboratory, yes.

Honestly, I heard early that this could have been a botched vaccine development attempt.

That hypothesis requires 2 breaches though and a lab level mutation event. Natural to human requires 1 mutation leading to a crossover event. I tend to follow Occam’s razor until I see actual data to change it.

The presence of a sloppy lab in the region doesn’t mean that much because there are literally hundreds of unregulated sloppy labs all across the world.

That said, data changes everything though. A person has to be willing to say their theory / hypothesis is wrong based on data. If patient zero worked at the lab and could have been in contact with contaminated material or if patient zero was a family member/ancillary worker dealing with the lab then that evidence definitely supports a potential lab release.

It will be interesting to see if independent epidemiologists ever get the chance to investigate.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

The doctors in China sounding the alarm bells about this conveniently disappeared soon after.

There will NEVER be an independent study of what went on there.

 

[thatsbaseball]

For American companies to do this "organized labor" will have to be somehow excluded from the equation. They (labor unions) are a big part of what got us here.

 

[WilCoDawg]

Somehow it’s still the US’s and Orange Man’s fault. I’m pretty certain of it.***

 

[Jeffreauxdawg]

For American companies to do this "organized labor" will have to be somehow excluded from the equation. They (labor unions) are a big part of what got us here.

I agree. For a long time unions protected workers from the oppression of brutal employers. In today's world, the script has flipped.. unions oppress the workers from awesome opportunities of employment.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics/us-intelligence-virus-started-chinese-lab/index.html

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/coronavirus-wuhan-lab-china-compete-us-sources


There is increasing confidence that COVID-19 likely originated in a Wuhan laboratory not as a bioweapon, but as part of China's effort to demonstrate that its efforts to identify and combat viruses are equal to or greater than the capabilities of the United States, multiple sources who have been briefed on the details of early actions by China's government and seen relevant materials tell Fox News.


This may be the "costliest government coverup of all time," one of the sources said.
“The sources believe the initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, and that "patient zero" worked at the laboratory, then went into the population in Wuhan.”

Our resident leftist virologists won’t like this. Maybe this theory has legs...maybe not...enjoy the links

Linked both CNN and FOX in the same post. End times...

 

[mstateglfr]

For American companies to do this "organized labor" will have to be somehow excluded from the equation. They (labor unions) are a big part of what got us here.

Sure, there are instances where unions seem to have priced themselves out of competition.
Its hardly that simple though.

Technology has developed in the time that unions priced themselves out of competition and so automation kinda sorta changed the landscape as well.

In the end though, besides Labor Dany, unions have managed to give us...
- higher overall pay which has benefited those in non-union jobs.
- reliable education which has directly helped us become one of the most intelligent and accomplished societies in history.
- health care so our families can live healthier and longer which has benefited those in non-union jobs.
- increased civic participation.
- improved working conditions which has benefited those in non-union jobs.
- an overall increase in standard of living which has benefited those in non-union jobs.

Unions run the largest career training program outside of the military. Apprenticeships have been a vital way for individuals to gain direct experience and knowledge and improve their life(and the lives of their family).



for the record, i am not and never have been part of a union. I just recognize they arent as bad as one side claims and arent as good as the other side claims, so I decided to list some actual proven reasons unions arent the debil.

 

[FQDawg]

Sure, there are instances where unions seem to have priced themselves out of competition.
Its hardly that simple though.

Technology has developed in the time that unions priced themselves out of competition and so automation kinda sorta changed the landscape as well.

In the end though, besides Labor Dany, unions have managed to give us...
- higher overall pay which has benefited those in non-union jobs.
- reliable education which has directly helped us become one of the most intelligent and accomplished societies in history.
- health care so our families can live healthier and longer which has benefited those in non-union jobs.
- increased civic participation.
- improved working conditions which has benefited those in non-union jobs.
- an overall increase in standard of living which has benefited those in non-union jobs.

Unions run the largest career training program outside of the military. Apprenticeships have been a vital way for individuals to gain direct experience and knowledge and improve their life(and the lives of their family).



for the record, i am not and never have been part of a union. I just recognize they arent as bad as one side claims and arent as good as the other side claims, so I decided to list some actual proven reasons unions arent the debil.

Unions also got us a five-day work week and an eight-hour work day.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Unions had a place at one time and were necessary and beneficial. Now they are just another politicized money grab. At a minimum they've long ago crossed over the point where the good outweighs the bad.

 

[mstateglfr]

Unions also got us a five-day work week and an eight-hour work day.

true.
Additionally, vacation, sick leave, increased maternity leave policies as well as the creation of FMLA overall were all significantly influenced by unions.

 

[WilCoDawg]

Stop bringing up modern times. Let’s focus on the good things they used to do.***

 

[WilCoDawg]

“Sure, they suck now, but look what they used to do.” Sounds like Ole Miss football talking points.

 

[johnson86-1]

Sure, there are instances where unions seem to have priced themselves out of competition.
Its hardly that simple though.

Technology has developed in the time that unions priced themselves out of competition and so automation kinda sorta changed the landscape as well.

In the end though, besides Labor Dany, unions have managed to give us...
- higher overall pay which has benefited those in non-union jobs.
- reliable education which has directly helped us become one of the most intelligent and accomplished societies in history.
- health care so our families can live healthier and longer which has benefited those in non-union jobs.
- increased civic participation.
- improved working conditions which has benefited those in non-union jobs.
- an overall increase in standard of living which has benefited those in non-union jobs.

Unions run the largest career training program outside of the military. Apprenticeships have been a vital way for individuals to gain direct experience and knowledge and improve their life(and the lives of their family).



for the record, i am not and never have been part of a union. I just recognize they arent as bad as one side claims and arent as good as the other side claims, so I decided to list some actual proven reasons unions arent the debil.

Being productive, hence rich, is really what got us most of those things. Organized labor may have helped accelerate some of those things, but we have usually had a competitive job market, particularly for good and/or skilled employees.

There is nothing wrong with unions and good unions would probably be beneficial. I'm not sure how many good unions there are in the US. My limited experience with them is that they spend a lot of effort trying to sweeten the deal for subpar employees and little to no effort making sure above average employees get their fair share of compensation/benefits. WHich I guess makes sense when you think about union leaders looking to stay union leaders.

Not sure if the way our unions developed was just a fluke or if it was a natural result of the way our laws are set up, particularly with respect to recognizing unions and collective bargaining.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

It is highly unlikely that we would have labor laws that we have today without them and our working conditions might more closely resemble those of 3rd world countries. There is some irony in the unions that were a huge catalyst in creating decent working conditions then became a huge catalyst for driving the work right back out of the country into similar working conditions that the US no longer supported.

 

[harrybollocks]

I really hate it when Americans workers are paid good wages and get good benefits. That shouldn't happen and I'm glad so many American companies moved overseas with the support and approval of Wall Street and American CEO's. As you know, American workers make more than those in China. And Wall Street bankers do too and American CEO's make vastly more than those elsewhere, but I'm not gonna mention that as a major factor. It's not like we've had a couple of Wall Street crashes over the past 12 years, right? Damn unions. The knee-jerk anti-union attitude strikes me as similar to the orange man bad crowd. Sure there's corruption and excesses associated with some unions, where is there none of that, but if you leave Wall Street and powerful lobbyists out of the equation you're letting ideology provide simple answers to complex issues. Or maybe we should do what the US Chamber of Commerce wants and have essentially unlimited cheap labor coming into the country. That'll show those Americans hoping to have good jobs so they can provide for their families. There's always uber and other jobs in the gig economy. FYI, I'm neither pro nor anti-union. And I'm not libertarian, or a situational libertarian.

 

[Not Really a Doc]

I'm not going to profess that it was laboratory made/modified, as mutations of the virus have been around, but I will say that most Asian countries run on a slightly modified code of ethics when compared to western culture. Since western culture and ethics have historically been based around the church, the ideas of right and wrong in regards to dishonesty is considered a much higher priority than the east.

In eastern cultures, the appearance and pride trump those other ethics. Which is why we got the "Everything is fine, we have no virus" and "We have no more virus, only westerners are bringing it in" and "We didn't make the virus it just happened" crap going on.

As far as the virus being lab made... lets not assume maleficence when ignorance and stupidity will do.

 

[Shooter McGavin.sixpack]

data changes everything though. A person has to be willing to say their theory / hypothesis is wrong based on data.

That is solid advice for all things. Unfortunately, too many would rather do anything else than admit they were wrong.

 

[NWADawg]

I agree that unions were needed and important at a point in our history but that was then.

I've worked at union and non-union plants. The most abused, unappreciated work force I've ever seen was at a union plant. I truly felt sorry for a lot of the hourly people there. Any company can take a union contract and beat their workers to death with it if they want to.

Times have indeed changed and unions are beyond useless to the point of being detrimental to the hourly employees especially in times like these. Many companies are making all sorts of changes like staggering shifts, changing work hours, etc. to help with social distancing and spread available hours to team members fairly. However, if the union contract has strict rules on schedules, furlough rules, etc., (most union contracts do) the company can't make the changes even if the employees want them until the next contract negotiation.

Here's one example of the kind of crap I saw on a daily basis at the one union plant: The union contract guaranteed that all employees got at least one day off every 14 days. So, on a Tues. or Wed. 10 days into someones 14 day cycle, the supv. would ask folks if they wanted the next day off. Since the next day was a weekday most employees would say no. Since the employee refused the opportunity for a day off, the 14 day cycles started over and they would be forced to work both days of the next 2 weekends. Their next opportunity 13 days later would also be on a weekday and so the cycle continued.

 

[tbaydog]

true.
Additionally, vacation, sick leave, increased maternity leave policies as well as the creation of FMLA overall were all significantly influenced by unions.

and they have been well paid for their efforts.......

 

[EngDawg]

Preprint from researchers within China saying the exact same thing: https://img-prod.tgcom24.mediaset.i...0192-5eb8307f-017c-4075-a697-348628da0204.pdf

 

[T-TownDawgg]

Nothing new, not surprised. Those who ignore history's mistakes are bound to repeat them.

Communist Russia covered up deaths and defeats in WWII till the bitter end; the exact number of Russian soldiers and civilians lost was horrific, yet still a wild guess. Victory and portraying strength was paramount.

NVA and VietCong essentially threw Russian and Chinese weapons along with North Vietnamese bodies at S Vietnam and US troops until the West simply became exhausted at mowing down humans with one hand tied behind its back for nearly two decades; the appearance of strength, determination, and eventual victory was all that mattered to the Communists. When they finally took Saigon, an economy spiraling from the US troop pullout collapsed completely. They reluctantly had to eventually open trade back up to the west.

The arms race and the Chernobyl disaster are what bankrupted the USSR. WWIII with the West wasn't needed. The commie bastards denied and deflected facts until it was all over, and no one, not even their own citizens, trusted that government to be transparent with anything.

Anyone see a pattern?

War with China is unnecessary when debt leveraging and the power of information is more effective.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I really hate it when Americans workers are paid good wages and get good benefits. That shouldn't happen and I'm glad so many American companies moved overseas with the support and approval of Wall Street and American CEO's. As you know, American workers make more than those in China. And Wall Street bankers do too and American CEO's make vastly more than those elsewhere, but I'm not gonna mention that as a major factor. It's not like we've had a couple of Wall Street crashes over the past 12 years, right? Damn unions. The knee-jerk anti-union attitude strikes me as similar to the orange man bad crowd. Sure there's corruption and excesses associated with some unions, where is there none of that, but if you leave Wall Street and powerful lobbyists out of the equation you're letting ideology provide simple answers to complex issues. Or maybe we should do what the US Chamber of Commerce wants and have essentially unlimited cheap labor coming into the country. That'll show those Americans hoping to have good jobs so they can provide for their families. There's always uber and other jobs in the gig economy. FYI, I'm neither pro nor anti-union. And I'm not libertarian, or a situational libertarian.

Mine isn't knee-jerk, it is based on the following:

• Unions pushing a divisive narrative that suggests that companies have a magic bucket of money that they just aren't choosing to spread the wealth. It contributes to a notion among the sheep that the whole world is just a game to see if you can get all the "rich" people and companies to let the little man in by just parting with some of that free money. The market dictates what products cost. That market decided that paying someone astronomical hourly rates and retirement benefits to put on a lug nut was not worth it. Unions cried that it wasn't fair and stuck to their guns. Companies that wanted to stay in business found ways to get stuff manufactured that did not depend on people expecting ridiculous compensation for performing menial tasks; this included tons of automation and a fair amount of offshoring.

• Experiential: I worked in a union shop and that taught me a couple of disturbing things:

1. Unions negotiate an absolute minimum amount of work required to keep a job that is well below the metric for actually working hard and defend it to the hilt.
2. Unions stewards will regularly harass and threaten you if you work harder than the absolute minimum. i.e. you have a disincentive and are punished for performing well

That experience taught me all I needed to know about why unions are fundamentally broken now.

 

[mstateglfr]

Stop bringing up modern times. Let’s focus on the good things they used to do.***

Without continued negotiation of union contracts, I am 100% certain the current balance would further tip away from workers having power. That is in the modern times, fyi.

 

[mstateglfr]

Being productive, hence rich, is really what got us most of those things. Organized labor may have helped accelerate some of those things, but we have usually had a competitive job market, particularly for good and/or skilled employees.

There is nothing wrong with unions and good unions would probably be beneficial. I'm not sure how many good unions there are in the US. My limited experience with them is that they spend a lot of effort trying to sweeten the deal for subpar employees and little to no effort making sure above average employees get their fair share of compensation/benefits. WHich I guess makes sense when you think about union leaders looking to stay union leaders.

Not sure if the way our unions developed was just a fluke or if it was a natural result of the way our laws are set up, particularly with respect to recognizing unions and collective bargaining.

Being productive is how we got most of those things? Da17?
You cant possibly ignore the industries that had working conditions improve not because of productivity, but because employers were effectively forced to give a **** due to labor organizing. Come on now.

 

[mstateglfr]

It is highly unlikely that we would have labor laws that we have today without them and our working conditions might more closely resemble those of 3rd world countries. There is some irony in the unions that were a huge catalyst in creating decent working conditions then became a huge catalyst for driving the work right back out of the country into similar working conditions that the US no longer supported.

Good point.
So this means who is now possibly benefiting the most from union efforts is those who arent in union jobs.
Another bit of irony.

 

[harrybollocks]

I agree and that's a better argument about the the detrimental effects some unions can have. Doesn't mean all. Post WWII union membership helped created a vibrant middle class. And it's important to mention other factors including the execs who negotiated those salaries and the decisions of corporate boards. My point is that it ain't just unions or union membership. BTW, teacher unions in some states have a particularly bad reputation and one that's well earned. But, problems in K-12 education aren't mainly caused by teacher unions.

 

[mstateglfr]

“Sure, they suck now, but look what they used to do.” Sounds like Ole Miss football talking points.

Interesting interpretation of my post. I acknowledge that within the history of labor unions and negotiations in the US, there are examples of waste, greed, and effectively cutting off the nose to spite the face. I did not say 'they suck now' and that wasnt the point of my acknowledging the existence of things already mentioned.
I also did not say 'look what they used to do'. Yes, I listed things that labor unions have done, but that doesnt mean they do nothing now. To claim that based on what I posted would be absurd. I didnt list things unions have yet to do because I dont know what will happen in the future, so I listed stuff that has happened. Pretty reasonable.

Also, unions actively continue to push for all the things I mentioned during new contracts. So in that aspect, they are still doing those things and it isnt what they used to do.
Without the power and ability to negotiate, salary and benefits would decrease across many industries.

 

[DAWG61]

17 China

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Yep. Completely changed what was acceptable wrt working America. Interesting that our collective conscience isn't strong enough to pay more to have things made in countries that better protect workers. The flipside of that is that in many of these countries, what we consider incredibly low wages is their best option to survive. It's a sad problem that has no easy answers.

 

[johnson86-1]

Being productive is how we got most of those things? Da17?
You cant possibly ignore the industries that had working conditions improve not because of productivity, but because employers were effectively forced to give a **** due to labor organizing. Come on now.

Why don't you point to those industries and explain why you think it was organized labor and not competition for employees with industries that were getting more productive that was the primary driver?

 

[turkish]

Same. When I’ve seen unions actually come into play on an issue, the result has been their helping people keep their jobs that, overall, is a detriment to the workplace safety of everyone there. For the instances I’ve seen, the union stepped in when even all the other union guys wanted the numbskulls gone. Sad.

 

[WilCoDawg]

I apologize but I saw the length of your diatribe and didn’t read it. I bet it was really interesting and may have even changed my mind.***

 

[WilCoDawg]

I’m really confused at how current working conditions are improved only by unions. No one in America “has” to work in terrible conditions. If you don’t like where you work, get another job. Plain and simple as that. If enough people did that, the company would have to change. Paying union thugs to change things and strong arm business owners into better deals for workers is legalized blackmail/mafia tactics.