Interesting take I heard on T&L that makes sense. Cohen grew up in the business as a coach, not as an AD and as such he will not fire a coach after two years. I think this is especially true given his own experience in his first two seasons at State that were very, very brutal. I don't see those as equal scenarios but I think Cohen will draw from that experience nonetheless.
Primary reason Joe will be back next year...
- Thread starter thekimmer
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Even in business you have stop losses set. Say your investment has lost 25% of its value no matter the time frame, a lot of business will cut it loose.
I’d say we are at that point.
I’d say we are at that point.
I've accepted the fact he's getting one more year, no matter what. I have very little hope that he's going to turn into Cinderella, but I do think it's possible, if unlikely. It was not possible with Croom and he got 5 years.
Time will tell, always does.
Time will tell, always does.
You assume he has the final decision.
This is a fair take but it won’t matter if the decision is ultimately not his to make.
This is a fair take but it won’t matter if the decision is ultimately not his to make.
He probably will be back no matter the result on Thanksgiving. But 2020 is his last season because the stands will tell the tale. When the season ticket renewal numbers come in and the attendance dips, it will be over and those two things are going to happen. Period. I've talked to more than few folks who are not renewing in 2020. They've seen enough.
And if by some infinitesimal chance he turns it around and we have a really good year next year, he'll jump to a better job in a more suitable cultural context for him (i.e. up north somewhere). But either way, he's not coaching this team in 2021. It's over.
And if by some infinitesimal chance he turns it around and we have a really good year next year, he'll jump to a better job in a more suitable cultural context for him (i.e. up north somewhere). But either way, he's not coaching this team in 2021. It's over.
Croom had Lonnie protecting him, and he wasn't five years removed from a team that was ranked #1 in the country, or was in the midst of a 9 year bowl streak. He actually took over a dumpster fire. So, while I'm no Croom apologist (I think he's the worst coach in the history of the program), it was justified in giving him more time because of the state of the program. Moorhead came into a great situation, so he isn't afforded the same courtesy.
Take it for it for what it’s worth, but Bo Bounds said this morning that he doesn’t believe it’s a sure thing he will be back. He led on that he has heard from enough people that he believes he is coaching for his job in the Egg Bowl.
Like you said, possible, but unlikely. The biggest thing that bothers me is the team plays with no heart. Seems like they are just out there going through the motions, like they are defeated from the beginning. Given that, I just don't see how Cohen or anyone can justify keeping a coach that can't motivate his players. If he's not able to do it now he's just not capable of doing it. But that's probably why I'm not an athletic director, maybe he sees something I don't.
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It's an interesting point. The difference is, Cohen had a track record at an SEC school, I mean he had won an SEC title. Plus he was an MSU guy. Moorhead won at Fordham. But still, they are kinda similar, and I'll admit 2009 and 2010 were tough. That was bad baseball, but a lot could be explained away by bad pitching depth left by Polk. Cohen immediately improved recruiting.
Unless he's gets blown out against OM he'll be back. Even if he's blown out, I'd give it 50% chance at best he'd be fired. If boos rain down int he Egg Bowl, that could help him get fired though.
I agree about the very different scenarios. Wasn't saying he'll get more time because Croom did. I expect him to get 3 years.
I agree with your Croom assessment as well.
I'm actually going to watch these next two games with a lot of interest.
We are basically past our suspension issues in that we don't need those players to beat Ab Christ and we'll have them vs OM.
With a lot to play for (Egg Bowl win and a bowl game berth), the team should come out focused and play with heart these last two games. I'll be further disappointed if they don't.
I don't think it's fair to try and get inside John Cohen's head on any of this without waiting and seeing. The football situation Moorhead inherited was incredibly different than the baseball jobs Cohen inherited at Kentucky and here. More like the one he inherited and and immediately succeeded in at Northwestern St.
too me that just means we got the wrong guy at AD if he isn't willing to make the smart business decision. this is part of the reason i hate a coach being promoted to AD with really no Athletic admin experience. We really need someone that came up through the atheletic admin side. it might be time to ask John to retire to the LFL or something. I like John. I just don't like him as the head AD.
Cohen also took over a program that was a little lacking in culture along with a huge lack of pitching. I remember one of those years that we had the RF close out against Ole Miss and the guy was a senior that hadn't pitched since high school.
The true comparison would be if Lemonis took over the team last year and had a .500 record.
I think him being a coach could just as easily cut against Moorhead.
As a coach, Cohen likely understands that there are things outside of a coaches control and that there are coaching results that are not seen in a win/loss column. Cohen is going to see that Moorhead took over a team with a pretty good culture (granted there were cracks showing in 2016 and even in 2017 we didn't show up on the road against good teams), that was at least tough if nothing else, and in two years has created a team without an identify, that doesn't always play hard, that is unprepared to the point of getting a delay of game penalty on the first offensive play of the game after a bye week, that you can't really point to a positive for except that he has done a good job in recruiting, particularly in filling significant holes left by Dan.
If Cohen looks past the W/L column, basically the only things in Moorhead's favor are excuses. Tutorgate and injuries. If it weren't for that (which are real, legitimate excuses), it'd be hard to make any argument that he should come back. As it is, the best argument for Moorhead is "he's not as bad as he looks". That would get you fired after year 3. It may or may not get him fired after Year 2.
That and all the comments on T&L about this are fine and dandy, but...
1) If we get embarrassed by Ole Miss, the decision will likely be out of his hands
2) If the decision is his, the big question for Cohen is going to be whether he wants his butt to be squarely on the hot seat with Joe next year as well. I get that he may not want to fire him after 2 years, but if we go 5-7 this year while looking like absolute trash for half the season, it's going to be a big gamble on Cohen's part to double down next year. Win and all's well. Lose and a lot of fans will be out of patience with both Joe and Cohen in 2020
1) If we get embarrassed by Ole Miss, the decision will likely be out of his hands
2) If the decision is his, the big question for Cohen is going to be whether he wants his butt to be squarely on the hot seat with Joe next year as well. I get that he may not want to fire him after 2 years, but if we go 5-7 this year while looking like absolute trash for half the season, it's going to be a big gamble on Cohen's part to double down next year. Win and all's well. Lose and a lot of fans will be out of patience with both Joe and Cohen in 2020
I can't even imagine the apathy for a Jomo led 2020 MSU team if we lose the Egg Bowl and don't go to a bowl game.
At least a new coach will give us a reason to buy season tickets and inject a little enthusiasm.
At least a new coach will give us a reason to buy season tickets and inject a little enthusiasm.
Right, and to call this team's performance "mediocre" really doesn't do justice to the travesty that has occurred. We had a 9-win team just two seasons ago while OM was about to serve the first of two postseason bans. They were an absolute mess in 2017, multiple key players were jumping ship, and what talent they somehow had left bailed for the NFL following last season. In other words, it was a two year long golden opportunity for MSU to step on their throats and become the genuinely premier program in Mississippi for the next 7-10 years.
As it now turns out, not only did we fail to distance ourselves from a program that was quickly going down the toilet, but we're likely going to find out on Thanksgiving that they've already caught up with us. Maybe even surpassed us.
It really has been a failure of epic proportions to not take advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity that was laid at Cohen's and Moorhead's feet
As it now turns out, not only did we fail to distance ourselves from a program that was quickly going down the toilet, but we're likely going to find out on Thanksgiving that they've already caught up with us. Maybe even surpassed us.
It really has been a failure of epic proportions to not take advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity that was laid at Cohen's and Moorhead's feet
Scary how much one bad hire can set the program back. UT still hasn't recovered from the 3 years they gave Derek Dooley.
Yep, there's your difference. Expectations were still much lower for our football program back in even the Croom years. You could totally suck back then and MSU fans would just sit and take it. He will almost certainly get another year and if we start losing early in the season next year the stadium will turn into a total ghost town for the rest of the year. Already going to be lower ticket sales because all the rival games are on the road next year.
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I don't absolve Dan Mullen of blame either. I think he would've absolutely killed it with our 2018 and 2019 teams. His ego is bigger than his ability though. We were the perfect job for him, but he thought he was above us. Instead of being a legendary coach here, he's going to be just another in a long line of Florida coaches who aren't Steve Spurrier or Urban Meyer.
True, but I do see fire and passion with Pruitt. I know Cohen passed him over, probably because of his southern, country way of speaking, but I believe he is a good football coach and will get Tennessee back on track in the not too distant future.
While I do agree about the opportunity, I wouldn't say once in a lifetime. We've had chances before, and so have they. Neither ever took advantage. MSU in 1994, OM in 2003 and again in 2008, MSU in 2011, OM in 2015, now us again in 2017. The cycle simply goes on and on.
I will say the difference is on the recruiting trail. We never really won that, except 2018. We screwed up in 2019 and let too much talent get away IMO, although at the end of the day it was still a very good class.
Yep. It has been proven time and time again over the last 25 years that neither football program has the ability to "distance" themselves from the other. One might string together a couple of years where they are the "better" team but I don't think you'll ever see a situation where one team is far better than the other for any extended period of time.
From an OM or MSU fan's perspective, I fully agree, but I was referring more to the individual career opportunities for Cohen and Moorhead. That is, how many guys get to walk into a program that just won 9 games, has an elite defense returning, and has a bitter rival in the midst of NCAA sanctions? It may not have been an absolutely perfect situation, but it was around an 8.5 out of 10 in terms of ideal scenarios for a new head coach, and I wouldn't bet much on him getting another one quite like this in his lifetime.
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