OT - Question(s) about public school rankings

[FQDawg]

Does anybody have any insight into how the public school rankings are calculated... and maybe who calculates them? I'm not looking to necessarily re-litigate the rankings but I'm curious about the criteria used. One of the reasons I'm curious is that I noticed that one of the elementary schools in Starkville went from a B last year to a D this year. Maybe that's completely warranted but I just have a hard time imagining that anything significant changed at that (or any) school in one year to warrant that kind of drop.

 

[BassinDawg.sixpack]

https://www.mdek12.org/OPR/Reporting/Accountability/2018

Good Luck........

 

[Diggin Out Yo Wife]

It's all about parental involvement bruh. Use the rankings as a general guide, but nothing more. Just like anything else, good/bad students in, good/bad students out. Visit the schools and ask about the parents.

That drop in rankings is most likely from some dumb test score.

Public schools have always been an exercise in futility, though.

 

[dudehead]

What is a "bruh"?

 

[patdog]

Parental involvement is important, especially for younger students and preschoolers. But if you don't think there are vast differences in the quality of education between school districts, you're just wrong.

 

[Diggin Out Yo Wife]

Parental involvement is important, especially for younger students and preschoolers. But if you don't think there are vast differences in the quality of education between school districts, you're just wrong.

At any moment in time, yes, because things like that change slowly. As good students leave, only bad ones are left, thus the good teachers leave. That's why I told him to use the rankings in a general fashion, and then do your research from there. Guess you missed that part, probably in too big of a hurry to take up for public schools.

This is, of course, under the assumption that agree with the government school curriculum to begin with.

 

[johnson86-1]

Parental involvement is important, especially for younger students and preschoolers. But if you don't think there are vast differences in the quality of education between school districts, you're just wrong.

These rankings are mostly just a measure of the average socioeconomic status of the students. So yes, there is a huge difference in quality when you are looking at school districts that have become dysfunctional enough that everybody that can pursues a different option,whether that means private school or moving or something else. But once you get to a critical mass of students with a functional home life, these rankings are less helpful. You don't know how well the school actually prepare students unless you somehow adjust the results for socioeconomic class.

A school with 30%-40% of its students from challenging backgrounds might be doing a fantastic job, and its students from all backgrounds might overachieve a little, but it might still get a middling rating while a school in an affluent school district might be rated A even though its students slighty underachieve compared to their backgrounds.

Doesn't really matter except that I think what most parents care about is "will my individual child get a good education in a safe environment", which might happen at a lot of schools without A ratings. By having rankings that basically measure socioeconomic status, we just make it more likely that high socioeconomic status families leave schools that are doing a good job for their kids just because they don't understand what the letter grades are measuring.

 

[mount lefroy]

These rankings are mostly just a measure of the average socioeconomic status of the students. So yes, there is a huge difference in quality when you are looking at school districts that have become dysfunctional enough that everybody that can pursues a different option,whether that means private school or moving or something else. But once you get to a critical mass of students with a functional home life, these rankings are less helpful. You don't know how the schools are doing unless you somehow adjust the results for socioeconomic class.

A school with 30%-40% of its students from challenging backgrounds might be doing a fantastic job, and its students from all backgrounds might overachieve a little, but it might still get a middling rating while a school in an affluent school district might be rated A even though its students slighty underachieve compared to their backgrounds.

This is absolutely the correct answer. ^^^^^^. Legislation in the past was for the movement to charter schools and there has also been a gradual movement toward private schools. Lower district grades made justification for some to see those as better alternatives. Some of the grades are correct. Some not so much.

Individual teachers make or break a school. As was alluded to, a poor area with outstanding teachers and kids who are in the early phases of education will get a lower score, but not deservedly so. Alternatively, a school with excellent funding, great facilities and kids who should be doing better but dont, gets a better grade.

I'm not advocating one or the other. I went to public school in Starkville from 1-12 grades. Both my kids did until last year I moved one to the Academy for him to have a better opportunity to compete in sports. It's been a good fit for him socially, but we did lose something going public to private and I dont mean money.

I wish there were an independent way of grading schools that people could trust. I also wish school shootings over the years hadnt changed places of education into daycare fortresses to prevent the next shooting. But that is the world we live in.

 

[paindonthurt_]

I think this is all most people want and definitely really all they NEED.

"will my individual child get a good education in a safe environment"

 

[FQDawg]

Thanks to those of you who had reasonable responses. And I checked out the link, though it still didn't really answer my one question... how does a school drop two letter grades in a single year. I can't imagine a single year of testing could do that much damage.

 

[Dash Riprock.sixpack]

My father in law was a retired educator turned business man and spent his entire life (no exaggeration) on what effects the quality of education in K-12. His final opinion as told to me before he died was that is was the amount of parent involvement and the quality of the teacher were the 2 greatest influences. Money spent by the city/state/county and socio-economic status of the student was way down the list. Globally, SES affects everything, but individually, those 2 factors were most important in his opinion.

 

[mstateglfr]

Public schools have always been an exercise in futility, though.

This is, of course, under the assumption that agree with the government school curriculum to begin with.

How are public schools not successful or worth the effort? I would strongly disagree with the claim that public schools have always been an exercise in futility. If provided with 'stats' to prove such an absurd claim, it would provide some entertaining afternoon reading at work.

And in general, what is wrong with the curriculum in public schools? STEM/STEAM/STREAM + traditional arts and music + PE + socialization = overall intelligent and confident kids.

 

[Diggin Out Yo Wife]

And in general, what is wrong with the curriculum in public schools? Misguided STEM/STEAM/STREAM + traditional arts and music + PE + socialization + government funded prison buildings in rigid huge classroom settings + hand-picked worldviews = overall more influence-able and hive-minded drones

Fixed that for you.

 

[Villagedawg]

For elementary schools it's 100% test score composites

Does anybody have any insight into how the public school rankings are calculated... and maybe who calculates them? I'm not looking to necessarily re-litigate the rankings but I'm curious about the criteria used. One of the reasons I'm curious is that I noticed that one of the elementary schools in Starkville went from a B last year to a D this year. Maybe that's completely warranted but I just have a hard time imagining that anything significant changed at that (or any) school in one year to warrant that kind of drop.

It's 100% based on test scores.
It looks like this:


Math Proficiency 100 pts
Math Growth of all students 100 pts
Math Growth low quartile 100pts
Reading Proficiency 100 pts
Reading growth all students 100 pts
Reading growth low quartile 100 pts
science proficiency 100 pts

Total possible 700 pts

Science is only for 5th and 8th grade students. All points are a percentages of the school's students. Then the state has cut scores for the letter grades. Growth means moving from one level to the next, or at least a half level up, from one school year to another for an individual student. MDE then uses the following to set the grades assigned to the schools:

A= 442 and up
B=377-441
C=328-376
D=269-327
F=below 269

For high schools, it's a bit different with other factors such as acceleration, graduation rate, and other factors figured in to the formula. Then they use a similar scale to assign grades. Message me if you have specific questions. I feel like I could write a book.

 

[L4Dawg]

Not all together true. The measurements are weighted toward "growth". That means if you improve your absolute score you get a better rating and if your absolute score decreases your rating goes down. That means that if you had a good rating it's extremely hard to up it but really easy to have it slip. By the same token, if you had a bad one it's much easier to raise it than it is for a school that had a good one. That is by design to enable really bad schools to improve without really doing anything much. It basically penalizes schools that have managed to achieve good scores in favor of the ones who haven't. It sucks and actually has little bearing on how good your school is, unless they have consistently good or bad ratings. It's hard to maintain good ones, so if you do, that's outstanding. It's also hard to consistently get bad ones, if you do, then.......

 

[cowbellringer.sixpack]

Best explanation I've seen.

https://twitter.com/Mississippi1st/status/1174330495368355840?s=20

 

[RocketDawg]

It's all about parental involvement bruh. Use the rankings as a general guide, but nothing more. Just like anything else, good/bad students in, good/bad students out. Visit the schools and ask about the parents.

That drop in rankings is most likely from some dumb test score.

Public schools have always been an exercise in futility, though.

I went to public schools in the late 50s/early 60s and they were fine then. That was in Meridian. I doubt they were as good as the academic private schools we have now, but still pretty darn good.

 

[Villagedawg]

Although it’s weighted toward growth, what counts as growth is important. For instance if a student is proficient this year then scores the same next year, that counts as growth. That’s why it’s easier to maintain a high rating. A student who is not proficient at say grade 4 yet improves enough to have the same scale score at the grade 5 level, that does not count as growth. It is growth toward proficiency. Not absolute growth. It is most definitely not designed for poor performing schools to improve. There is room, but it takes a lot of work. It is more difficult to improve than it is to maintain, and that appears to be by design. When the scores don’t fall where influential people want them, they change the cut scores after the fact.

 

[Diggin Out Yo Wife]

I went to public schools in the late 50s/early 60s and they were fine then. That was in Meridian. I doubt they were as good as the academic private schools we have now, but still pretty darn good.

I went to public schools too. But after a lot of my own personal research, the whole institution of public/government education is a failed experiment. It doesn’t promote unique thought. It produces the hive mind.

 

[Go Budaw]

Thanks to those of you who had reasonable responses. And I checked out the link, though it still didn't really answer my one question... how does a school drop two letter grades in a single year. I can't imagine a single year of testing could do that much damage.

I’ll sidestep the social / semi-political banter and try to answer your question. Like others have stated, it’s just about all controlled by test scores as far as the letter grades received from the state audits. If you have a school that’s only 2 or 3 grade levels (like an early elementary or junior high school), you can go from a great grade to a bad one in a hurry when a class with a lot of quality students moves on and is replaced with one with a lot of low performing students. In Mississippi in particular, these ebbs and flows can be quite frequent. My sister who works in the MS public school system (but out of town from where she lives) was bragging big time when the elementary school where her oldest attended got an A rating. Then the very next year, it dropped all the way down to a D. She pulled her out and stuck her in at the school where she worked because she knew all the good teachers and was able to pull strings to get her in the classes with those teachers. And her school was also improving in the rankings. But who knows if that continues?

I’ll also say that regardless of your opinion of public vs. private, the contributing factors to each being good or bad, the perceived legitimacy of the rankings, or whether you even have kids or not, the rankings themselves mean a whole hell of a lot. And the biggest reason for that is property values within the school district / town, which affects everything as far as attracting industry, growing the population, improving the tax base, etc. If you want to look beyond state letter grade rankings (which I think is a good idea), I would check out schooldigger.com for a more thorough understanding of where individual schools fall relative to others in your state. I’ve used it a lot lately as I have been on the housing market for over a month now. I think they do a better job than greatschools of actually trending the test score data (over at least 5 years) and ranking the schools so that you can see if any given good or bad year in the state rankings is a blip on the radar or part a continued regression or ascension.

 

[bruiser.sixpack]

What is a "bruh"?

A Yute’s 1st cousin.

 

[vorticityDawg]

Serious question: What is your preferred alternative

I went to public schools too. But after a lot of my own personal research, the whole institution of public/government education is a failed experiment. It doesn’t promote unique thought. It produces the hive mind.

I cannot imagine that homeschool or religious-based schools will provide enough exposure to external information to produce more independent thinkers. I am not bashing either form. I am just responding to your concern about "hive mind," and I am using commonly understood characteristics of the three modes mentioned.

 

[Diggin Out Yo Wife]

I cannot imagine that homeschool or religious-based schools will provide enough exposure to external information to produce more independent thinkers.

That's where you go wrong.

I am just responding to your concern about "hive mind," and I am using commonly understood characteristics of the three modes mentioned.

Public school settings were a mistake from the get-go, one age group all together in a prison setting with teachers who don't have individual learning in mind, it's more about the group, and thus all regress to the mean. Some private schools are really no different from this, and certainly not all religious schools are good. Homeschooling is very misunderstood. Information is everywhere.

No matter what, you want small teaching environments, lots of parental oversight, and a truly open-minded worldview. You can choose whatever method you want, but public schools are certainly getting away from these things. The ones with good ratings often have good parental oversight, but have huge classrooms and only teach the secular worldview. I personally think you can do better at some of the small town schools that aren't highly rated, but have parental oversight and smaller classroom settings.

ETA: I fully recognize that public schools are the only choice for many people, it was for me. You just have to know these things going into it and be intentional about what you get out of it.

 

[vorticityDawg]

What you seem to mean is that you want YOUR oversight over the education. I am guessing that you wouldn't be interested in my input as soon as it went against your ideals.

My perspective is that those different (even subtle differences) worldviews are less likely to be experienced (not just read about) in private schools or home schools. I think public schools are better for most people because they are taught to live as part of a society of people with different ideas and opinions. You can prefer that your kids not go to public school, but I don't understand why you want everyone else to stop supporting them.

 

[Diggin Out Yo Wife]

What you seem to mean is that you want YOUR oversight over the education. I am guessing that you wouldn't be interested in my input as soon as it went against your ideals.

My perspective is that those different (even subtle differences) worldviews are less likely to be experienced (not just read about) in private schools or home schools. I think public schools are better for most people because they are taught to live as part of a society of people with different ideas and opinions. You can prefer that your kids not go to public school, but I don't understand why you want everyone else to stop supporting them.

It's actually the exact opposite. Public schools teach ONE worldview.

I am going to have my own oversight over my children's education no matter what. And I'm certainly fine with debate, whether it's your opinion or Charles Darwin's.

 

[vorticityDawg]

You can't just say things and make them be true. My kid (in Mississippi) was friends with classmates who were Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, and all sorts of Protestant. How is that just "one worldview"? It seems you are upset that public schools favor science over faith as a way to understand our natural world, but I have never been a part of a public school that actively denigrated faith or its value.

Look for the good, and you will find it. Look for the bad/scary, and you will convince yourself that you see it.

 

[mstateglfr]

That's where you go wrong.


Public school settings were a mistake from the get-go, one age group all together in a prison setting with teachers who don't have individual learning in mind, it's more about the group, and thus all regress to the mean. Some private schools are really no different from this, and certainly not all religious schools are good. Homeschooling is very misunderstood. Information is everywhere.

No matter what, you want small teaching environments, lots of parental oversight, and a truly open-minded worldview. You can choose whatever method you want, but public schools are certainly getting away from these things. The ones with good ratings often have good parental oversight, but have huge classrooms and only teach the secular worldview. I personally think you can do better at some of the small town schools that aren't highly rated, but have parental oversight and smaller classroom settings.

ETA: I fully recognize that public schools are the only choice for many people, it was for me. You just have to know these things going into it and be intentional about what you get out of it.

My kids are in the public school system and they have 3 grades in each classroom. Preschool/prekindergarten/k, 1/2/3, 4/5/6, and then 7/8 combined.
That doesnt seem to align with your argument, though I recognize it's in the minority for how schools are set up.

You continually frame public schools as a prison system and that is simply unfair. Such an aggressive and clearly incorrect association simply invalidates your view to anyone looking to have a discussion on the topic.

And what is the claimed 1 worldview that is taught, exactly?
In public schools, I learned all about different religions, different cultures, and different forms of government.



It seems like you just want your view taught to your kids- the very issue you complain about.

 

[Diggin Out Yo Wife]

You can't just say things and make them be true. My kid (in Mississippi) was friends with classmates who were Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, and all sorts of Protestant. How is that just "one worldview"?

​

That's great they have diverse friends. Tell me though, which of those friends are doing the teaching?

​

It seems you are upset that public schools favor science over faith as a way to understand our natural world, but I have never been a part of a public school that actively denigrated faith or its value.

​

Science is actually Christian-based. The secular 'science' taught in public schools is from the evolutionary point of view, which is obviously not proven by any means. Funny, seeing how public schools were born out of that very line of thinking.

​

Look for the good, and you will find it. Look for the bad/scary, and you will convince yourself that you see it.

If you want to learn something, I'll teach you. But you're going to have to stay away from the second rate patronizing attempts to get my advice.

 

[Diggin Out Yo Wife]

My kids are in the public school system and they have 3 grades in each classroom. Preschool/prekindergarten/k, 1/2/3, 4/5/6, and then 7/8 combined.
That doesnt seem to align with your argument, though I recognize it's in the minority for how schools are set up.

Great. That's a start.

​

You continually frame public schools as a prison system and that is simply unfair. Such an aggressive and clearly incorrect association simply invalidates your view to anyone looking to have a discussion on the topic.

My opinion is fair. I don't have the power to tell you what to do so what is unfair about it? Are you scared I will influence someone else?

​

And what is the claimed 1 worldview that is taught, exactly? In public schools, I learned all about different religions, different cultures, and different forms of government.

Evolutionary worldview. And I didn't learn much about Christianity, funny enough. Weird how it gets left out.

​

It seems like you just want your view taught to your kids- the very issue you complain about.

Again, it works the opposite. I want the truth taught. I want all things taught, and they can make up their own minds. This goes for religion too. But again, Christianity alone is unique in that it is the worldview that affords this freedom, because in the end, when you learn the truth, you come back to it.

 

[mstateglfr]

Again, it works the opposite. I want the truth taught. I want all things taught, and they can make up their own minds. This goes for religion too. But again, Christianity alone is unique in that it is the worldview that affords this freedom, because in the end, when you learn the truth, you come back to it.

You stumped me- I dont understand what 'the truth' is and I dont know how it isn't being taught in public education. I find it odd that educators would not teach something that is 'the truth' since, you know, their jobs are to educate.

What are kids supposed to make up their own minds about? Addition is addition- how would that be presented differently for kids to make up their own minds? Reading is reading. Engineering is engineering. English is English. Art is art.
Etc etc. How should those subjects be presented for kids to make up their own minds?
My youngest just completed a segment on the lifecycle of a monarch butterfly. How could that be presented for her to choose what to believe?

Your issues with public school are confusing because I cant understand the specifics.

 

[mstateglfr]

It's actually the exact opposite. Public schools teach ONE worldview.

I am going to have my own oversight over my children's education no matter what. And I'm certainly fine with debate, whether it's your opinion or Charles Darwin's.

Ok- so your issues with public achool are religious based and the worldview you continue to mention is religious based.

Gotcha.

Yeah, a system that doesnt emphasize belief and instead focuses on knowledge isn't going to be your favorite.

 

[Diggin Out Yo Wife]

Yeah, a system that doesnt emphasize belief and instead focuses on knowledge isn't going to be your favorite.

But see, here's the funny part - the Christian worldview emphasizes knowledge, i.e. science.....the evolutionary worldview emphasizes one viewpoint, and demonizes the others, including most all religion (especially Christianity and any mentions of God). Even stranger is that they have no proof of anything themselves, when in doubt, "millions of years".

Weird huh. Seems to me you are the one repeating something and pretending it's true.

 

[vorticityDawg]

I'm guessing even most pastors would recommend that you focus more on the "forest" rather than a "tree" or two that makes you angry.

Your singular focus on evolution is apparently causing you to speak/type in mostly non sequiturs, so discussion with you is pretty difficult.

Don't be surprised when your child grows up to be a paleontologist if you continue your crusade.

 

[WilCoDawg]

Don’t bother. That guy lives for confronting and belittling everyone he can.

 

[Diggin Out Yo Wife]

I'm guessing even most pastors would recommend that you focus more on the "forest" rather than a "tree" or two that makes you angry.

Your singular focus on evolution is apparently causing you to speak/type in mostly non sequiturs, so discussion with you is pretty difficult.

Don't be surprised when your child grows up to be a paleontologist if you continue your crusade.

I guess if you keep calling me angry, I will eventually become....angry?

I think by now you can see that I have many issues with public school, and I've stated those in this thread. Singular? Not really.

Thanks for the concern about my "crusade", haha. What about the truth makes it a crusade? Oh, I get it, play on words.

In seriousness, paleontology is great. Went and visited a certain site earlier this summer.

 

[mstateglfr]

But see, here's the funny part - the Christian worldview emphasizes knowledge, i.e. science.....the evolutionary worldview emphasizes one viewpoint, and demonizes the others, including most all religion (especially Christianity and any mentions of God). Even stranger is that they have no proof of anything themselves, when in doubt, "millions of years".

Weird huh. Seems to me you are the one repeating something and pretending it's true.

I might be pretending something is true...but genuinely dont know if I am because i cant fully follow what your are even talking about.

What is the 'Christian worldview' and how does it emphasize knowledge? Literal biblical belief doesnt seem like knowledge any more than many of the pagan traditions adopted by christianity to increase acceptance seem like knowledge.

This Christian worldview you are focusing on- it emphasizes science? Where is that in all the debunked attempts to force creation into science classes? I can't say I've come across creation arguments that emphasize science, but perhaps I've missed them.


It seems like you are hyper focused on science specifically. I listed many examples where your desire to let kids choose what they believe doesnt apply in public(or private) schooling. So you in theory dont take issue with any of those subjects/classes.
It's really just an issue of christianity not being taught in science class. Ok then- that's a tough one to move on from for sure.
I do look forward to some info to support your argument of how religion emphasizes scientific knowledge. Empirical evidence seems a bit scarce, but I admittedly haven't kept up on this since it was so clearly baseless earlier in the century when it was a socially popular topic for debate.



ETA- I cant forsee anything coming of this that will actually make for a fruitful discussion. Unless there is a beneficial reason to continue posting, this is my exit from the thread. Mid- no need to lock or anything.

 

[Iwenttostateinthenineties]

Paindonthurt, just making sure you got my email

 

[johnson86-1]

Not all together true. The measurements are weighted toward "growth". That means if you improve your absolute score you get a better rating and if your absolute score decreases your rating goes down. That means that if you had a good rating it's extremely hard to up it but really easy to have it slip. By the same token, if you had a bad one it's much easier to raise it than it is for a school that had a good one. That is by design to enable really bad schools to improve without really doing anything much. It basically penalizes schools that have managed to achieve good scores in favor of the ones who haven't. It sucks and actually has little bearing on how good your school is, unless they have consistently good or bad ratings. It's hard to maintain good ones, so if you do, that's outstanding. It's also hard to consistently get bad ones, if you do, then.......

That is actually encouraging to hear. But if that's the case, they don't need to publicize these. These aren't useful for parents, they are useful as a management tool. And a particular management tool. I get the desire to make sure the bottom 25% are improving, as those are the people you are trying to keep off the public dole. But you also need to be improving the other 75% equally so there are people productive enough to provide welfare to the bottom 25%. Not sure double counting them work.

But as far as parents, most of the ones concerned about these grades probably aren't as worried about the 25% of the class, they're worried about their kids getting a good education, so they probably want a score without the growth factored in with some adjustment for socioeconomic status.

 

[OldFatDog]

Great. That's a start.



My opinion is fair. I don't have the power to tell you what to do so what is unfair about it? Are you scared I will influence someone else?



Evolutionary worldview. And I didn't learn much about Christianity, funny enough. Weird how it gets left out.

​

Again, it works the opposite. I want the truth taught. I want all things taught, and they can make up their own minds. This goes for religion too. But again, Christianity alone is unique in that it is the worldview that affords this freedom, because in the end, when you learn the truth, you come back to it.

The fact that you consistently present this belief as a truth is informative. I am confident that your truth is very different than the truth of many other Christians.

 

[johnson86-1]

I cannot imagine that homeschool or religious-based schools will provide enough exposure to external information to produce more independent thinkers. I am not bashing either form. I am just responding to your concern about "hive mind," and I am using commonly understood characteristics of the three modes mentioned.

Then you have a very limited imagination. Schools do a poor job in general of producing independent thinkers because they are generally filled with people who are not independent thinkers who came from education departments that largely are rotten in the same way.

That said, even if they are in the minority, lots of public schools are pretty good. Lots of private schools are pretty good. Lots of homeschooling is pretty good. But to the extent they are good, they are good b/c they either have people who were not ruined by college, or that came with different experiences.

IN generaly though, the way we have schools set up is ridiculous. It sort of made sense at one time, but it's ridiculous now. For what we spend per pupil at even the worst funded schools, we could pool that money for 15 people, and pay one good teacher to teach them in groups of 5 for 2 hours a day, and we'd probably blow away the performance of most public schools. That would leave you without the daycare aspect of school but you'd get much better instruction.

Just for perspective, even in the worst funded school districts in Mississippi, that would leave you $105k to pay for compensation and benefits for teaching 15 kids. For Oktibeha COunty, they would have $195k. In the worst school districts, with the poorest people, you still might have trouble finding an adequate space to teach 5 kids at a time. But most places that would not be an issue.