OT Tuition is getting stupid
- Thread starter Jeffreauxdawg
- Start date
Yeah that's not true. The increases are due to demand, which is high because people can easily get loans. It's that simple.
Of course the state appropriations have decreased per student. There's a set amount of money and enrollment is sky-rocketing. Duh. That's an effect, not a cause.
Would I like the state to increase the appropriations? Sure. Because that's where the innovation is.....our young people. But it's not the largest cause of rising tuition.
I grew up in Arkansas. Went to State to get an education. Love State but now live 3 miles from UPig. Yes my sons went school here because that's where they chose. I'm actually glad my kids wanted to stay close to home. I wear State hat and lanyard every day and cheer for State without fail but life is bigger than any college.
This is the key. The vast majority of the expansion in the number of college attendees has been outside of STEM and business areas. So we're not generally producing more productive people with the expansion of college attendance/degrees. .
One of the many ways you can tell we're 17ed as a society is that it would be a common to (1) assume that somebody other than the 18 year old that can enroll in the army and be sent to war would be responsible for supporting him/herself for a gap year after high school and (2) that it would not be realistic for most 18 year olds to support themselves for a year after college.
Even working ****** jobs, in most places it's not that hard to pay for a beater car, car insurance, and a 3 or 4 bedroom rental with 2 or 3 roommates. You basically need to be able to show up to a job on time while not under the influence of drugs or alcohol and you can be a star employee at a lot of low wage workplaces.
Only sheep fall for the trends.
Kids should be steered toward their strengths, but not because the school determines it. That is the parents' job.
Somewhat true, but even manufacturing companies are cutting way back on how many full time employees they have, and utilizing contract temp agencies to fill the labor gap in order to cut costs. Those jobs at the temp agencies are not good pay or benefits usually, and in many cases you have to put in 3 or 4 years to get hired on full time. The qualifications for said jobs is also not that rigorous. Having two arms and two legs and no felonies is about all it takes.
The biggest gap in the manufacturing sector is for machine maintenance / skilled labor. That’s where more trade school / associate programs are needed. But I wouldn’t say there are “tons” of openings for those jobs. Any given large scale plant may only have one or two openings at any given time.
Yep the true demand is skilled labor, which requires training of some sort, many times community college can cover it.
MPACT was a bargain, but if tuition at the state colleges in the poorest state in the nation continues to outpace inflation for another decade or two, then there won't be anybody that can afford it. I wouldn't advise against MPACT, but I'm not expecting it to be much different than doing the stockmarket, simply because we've reached a point where people won't be able to afford it, and if MPACT offers a better deal than the stock market, then it will probably be discontinued and the money returned with pretty meager returns (which I think can happen up until the point that your kid is like a sophomore in college?).
I get it man. I'm just doing my part to quell the brain drain and get more young people back to Mississippi. I hate seeing MS' best and brightest do great things for other states, but it is what it is.
And why shouldn't they? Unless a kid has a full-ride scholarship to a four-year university, why would any rational parent spend triple their educational expenses on essentially core coursework like Comp I/College Algebra and Intro courses when they can get the same at a community college? The thing holding a lot of students back from attending community colleges back in my day was the stigma of going to one. They were viewed by most of my class as 13th grade - a place where you went if you couldn't cut it at university. Not the case nowadays.
Plus if you factor in the rise of dual credit courses, there are students who can earn nearly enough credits for an associates degree before they even get handed a HS diploma. Most of those courses are heavily discounted as well. And that path significantly shortens the length of time - and cost - to achieve the credits necessary for a degree.
Bottom line - there are paths to a college degree that are cost effective that don't involve heading to a university straight out of high school and breaking the bank to get there.
Plus if you factor in the rise of dual credit courses, there are students who can earn nearly enough credits for an associates degree before they even get handed a HS diploma. Most of those courses are heavily discounted as well. And that path significantly shortens the length of time - and cost - to achieve the credits necessary for a degree.
Bottom line - there are paths to a college degree that are cost effective that don't involve heading to a university straight out of high school and breaking the bank to get there.
To me one of the issues with tuition cost is the degree you are getting and future earning potential. You pay the same tuition for both a chemical engineering degree as a teaching degree. One has much more income potential than the other. You can justify $80k tuition for an engineering degree, but that gets harder to do for a teaching degree.
Perhaps a baseline tuition for the university which covers the admin part, and each college within the university has a separate tuition.
Perhaps a baseline tuition for the university which covers the admin part, and each college within the university has a separate tuition.
I don't disagree with your posts much but I do on this one. I'll admit that I'm on the downhill side of my working career so I'm probably a little jaded. Industry is now hiring recently graduated engineers for positions that 20 years ago would be filled by hourly employees with 10-15 years of experience who had shown initiative and been promoted from within. The problem with that is two fold. The 18-20 year old that will one day work his way up the ladder no longer exist, the smart kid with initiative is now going to college instead of entering the workforce out of high school.The labor market for unskilled labor is pretty bleak, as a plant manager told me a few weeks ago, he wishes he had back everybody he fired in the 90's and 00's because they are better than what is walking through the door today. Now we get to the recently graduated engineer who is being hire for a position that he should be over qualified for, he shows up in his white shirt and starched khakis thinking that his degree gets him a job where he doesn't have to get his hands dirty but that's not the reality of the labor market now. It's a revolving door, most move on fairly quickly. Some find the job they are looking for but most are just wasting my time and the time of their next employer. Most have no work ethic because they have never had to work, they just assume that the degree guarantees them a well paying job with minimal physical effort. I won't even get started on the Barista with the General Studies degree.
I am mainly saying that for me, it has been a great decision. I dont think everyone needs to go to college and that is one of the reasons we are having this problem. Ingles shipyard had to hire hundreds of welders from Europe and Russia because they could not find Americans trained to do the job. Those jobs were 70 000 plus benefits starting out. Auto repair, HVAC, electricians etc are skills/trades that require training/cc trade schools that pay very good but dont require a 4 year college degree. You can make a great living without getting a degree from State.
In Japan and many foreign countries at around our 8th to 10th grade level, students take testing that either puts them on a track to go to college or go obtain a skill/trade. I'm a firm believer in this. Our high school system is set up for college prep with the ability to take trade/skills as an elective. We do our kids no favors by trying to tell them this is preparing them for college when most dont go. We should be preparing them to get a job that provides for them to be a functional member of society whether that involves college or not.
https://www.amazon.com/New-Geography-Jobs-Enrico-Moretti/dp/0544028058/ref=nodl_
I did the Audible. It was easy; only like 8 hours.
I did the Audible. It was easy; only like 8 hours.
You sound just like those promoting the policies that led to the housing bubble and eventual bust. "Owning a home is like buying a lottery ticket that's virtually guaranteed to win."
They really ought to just do away with most of those classes. They're a waste of time and money.
I was going to respond in detail to this sub-thread but in most instances here I agree with Goat.
I believe the MPACT program has since undergone changes since we bought in and I'm not sure how it currently works but when we bought in, we purchased 128 credit hours at the tuition rate at that time. That is fully guaranteed. My daughter's 1st 128 credit hours (16 hours per semester for 8 semesters/4years) won't cost us any anything. If my daughter chooses not to go to college, then the money with interest will be refunded to us. If she starts college and doesn't finish, then the credits she didn't use are prorated vs the initial investment and that amount plus interest is returned. If she gets a scholarship and doesn't need all those pre-paid credits, then the money is pro-rated and returned with interest. Again, I think it's changed since then, but at they time we purchased it was an absolute great deal.
Me too. Austin Community College is huge with several campuses that are the schools for different areas of study. One for medical in Round Rock, one for computer sciences and programing in north-central, and so on. The tuition is very, very affordable and they have a great deal of continuing education programmed aimed at older students who don't want to work at McDonald's but don't want a four-year degree.
And they have no sports programs, which is probably why tuition is more affordable. That combined with the fact that there is a yearly tax on every oil well in the state just for education. Maybe Mississippi could do the same if they get to grow cannabis.
Speaking of trends. How many times have you had to sign up with a new user name to feed your habit?
You’re thinking about the impact of college far too narrowly. A 4 year degree today:
> Increases your life expectancy by 7 years
> Lowers your likelihood of divorce
> Increases your political participation rates
> Lowers teenage pregnancy rates among your children
> Increases the likelihood you’ll start a small business
> Lowers your risk of being a victim of violent crime
Thats not even getting into the huge impacts of career earnings, tax revenue generated, etc.
If all those benefits were rolled into a single pill, would you make the case that some people dont need to take it?
> Increases your life expectancy by 7 years
> Lowers your likelihood of divorce
> Increases your political participation rates
> Lowers teenage pregnancy rates among your children
> Increases the likelihood you’ll start a small business
> Lowers your risk of being a victim of violent crime
Thats not even getting into the huge impacts of career earnings, tax revenue generated, etc.
If all those benefits were rolled into a single pill, would you make the case that some people dont need to take it?
If people are willing to take out hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans to go to universities, then the universities are certainly going to be willing to take their money. It's all a big feedback loop and one day the bubble will burst. We will have giant universities with all of the fanciest "resort style" dorms and they will all be empty.
It's crazy how badly you miss the big picture. Especially considering that pill comes with huge price tags. Price tags that didn't exist when your data was compiled.
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My son is a swimmer @ #4 UofL, MSU does not have a swim team. I actually exchanged many emails with both MSU ADs when he was in grade school pleading for MSU to pickup swimming. UT and LSU recruited by son, yet his favorite team (still today) did not have a team. Sucked.
Daughter does not want to move 7 hrs/500 miles away. She prefers living in a city too and she doesn't care anything about team sports so my brainwashing of all things MSU did not take with her. ;-)
Daughter does not want to move 7 hrs/500 miles away. She prefers living in a city too and she doesn't care anything about team sports so my brainwashing of all things MSU did not take with her. ;-)
So many good ideas in this thread but it is easy to get lost in the weeds. First question is what is college for? If you say for job preparation that is one path (fulfilled by some majors, some JUCO, some job training programs). If you say for overall intelligence/growing up that is (or should be) a separate set of decision drivers. I have 3 degrees (need all 3 for my job) but I've told both my kids that not everyone has to go to college if they have a alternative career plan. My daughter is very musical, my son very mechanical, when the time comes if he wants to be an electrician or plumber, etc then I can support that. The important part is getting the skills one needs to be a productive adult.
I also think one should have an eye to what the future will want in workers in 20/30/40 years. This is not a requirement as many have multiple careers in a lifespan but it is smart to think and plan about what is needed in the future (IMO you need to avoid jobs that are scalable as over time efficiencies will eliminate jobs that can be scaled, and this includes my industry but I am working towards a new career arc in 10 years)
I also think one should have an eye to what the future will want in workers in 20/30/40 years. This is not a requirement as many have multiple careers in a lifespan but it is smart to think and plan about what is needed in the future (IMO you need to avoid jobs that are scalable as over time efficiencies will eliminate jobs that can be scaled, and this includes my industry but I am working towards a new career arc in 10 years)
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That’s pseudoscience nonsense. That economist should have his PhD revoked if you’re accurately describing his work.
It will be steep. Some will be basically required by increased compliance obligations. Others will be part of the services offered to students to be competitive. Some will be part of the jobs program for leftists although I would assume at a place like MSU that would be a small percentage. Plenty of universities have multimillion dollars in annual expense just for a vice president of diversity and inclusion and their department.
The numbers present a clear picture: decreasing state funding is a big problem
Enrollment is not "sky-rocketing." It is growing slowly (<2% annually) in most years, and it actually dropped last year.
http://www.ir.msstate.edu/enroll_profile18.pdf
State funding must go up with growing enrollment, or else tuition must rise. More students require more resources.
There is not a "set amount of money." The amount has actually decreased in most of the last 15 years. The increases were greater than the rare increases, so 2018 funding was 16% ($13 million) less than it was in 2008. With inflation and enrollment, the funding was more than 40% lower than 2008!
http://www.ihl.state.ms.us/research/downloads/profile2008.pdf
[url]http://www.ihl.state.ms.us/research/downloads/profile2018.pdf
[/URL]
Tuition over that same period increased by 67%.
https://www.registrar.msstate.edu/sites/www.registrar.msstate.edu/files/0809bulletin.pdf
https://www.sfa.msstate.edu/sites/w...Published Cost of Attendance for MSUEXCEL.pdf
State funding does not explain ALL of the tuition increases, but it is the biggest part. To deny that is to purposefully ignore the numbers.
Enrollment is not "sky-rocketing." It is growing slowly (<2% annually) in most years, and it actually dropped last year.
http://www.ir.msstate.edu/enroll_profile18.pdf
State funding must go up with growing enrollment, or else tuition must rise. More students require more resources.
There is not a "set amount of money." The amount has actually decreased in most of the last 15 years. The increases were greater than the rare increases, so 2018 funding was 16% ($13 million) less than it was in 2008. With inflation and enrollment, the funding was more than 40% lower than 2008!
http://www.ihl.state.ms.us/research/downloads/profile2008.pdf
[url]http://www.ihl.state.ms.us/research/downloads/profile2018.pdf
[/URL]
Tuition over that same period increased by 67%.
https://www.registrar.msstate.edu/sites/www.registrar.msstate.edu/files/0809bulletin.pdf
https://www.sfa.msstate.edu/sites/w...Published Cost of Attendance for MSUEXCEL.pdf
State funding does not explain ALL of the tuition increases, but it is the biggest part. To deny that is to purposefully ignore the numbers.
I get this, but it's hard for me to support spending more money on college when the students are mostly the lucky ones in the state. Even if you borrow to pay sticker price at one of the state universities, if you get an engineering, accounting, finance, etc. type degree, it's still a good return on investment. And if you knock out two years at JUCO it's a really good return. Just hard to increase the tax burden on poorer people in the state when our options are already about as cheap as it gets for students.
ETA: If we wanted to do more, it should be tied to students actually staying in state after graduation, not just making it cheaper to go to school for them to go get a job in Memphis, Birmingham, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Nashville, etc.
You've made some valid points, but, calling a parking lot a "creature comfort" on the MSU campus is a total joke. I'm on campus most days working and a student can literally ride around for the duration of a class and not find a parking place some days. There is waste on campus for sure, but, building 3 new parking lots is not one of them. Could they have built something cheaper than a deck, probably yes, but at the same time they are building it in a congested area of campus surrounded by athletic facilities and new dorms and by building up instead of out they are preserving what little area is available there.
I always felt like one of the bigger problems was the number of credit hours to earn your degree. Not so much that there is a number you have to reach, but how you have to get there. If you are an engineering major, why do you need Intro to Theater or some other random elective? I assume electives are required to help fill certain classes that wouldn't be able to exist otherwise, or under the disguise of making you a more well rounded individual, but it feels like a waste of time and money. It doesn't change the increase in the cost per course hour that has been discussed, but I feel like it could help with the overall cost.
I'm not familiar with the economist but The New Geography of Jobs got a rave review in Forbes being called "easily the most important read of 2012" by John Tamny who's FreedomWorks' Director of the Center for Economic Freedom.
So yeah, I'm definitely going to give this a listen. Thank you again, 57strat!
So yeah, I'm definitely going to give this a listen. Thank you again, 57strat!
The only problem with Mpact is if your kid decides not to go to a state school. We opted not to do it and invested in a 529. It turned out our son went to MSU mostly on scholarships. He also co-oped 3 times. He did very well at MSU and is now headed to a very, VERY good graduate school. The only way he was able to do this was with the 529 plus what he made on the co-ops. He is looking at it like an investment that will pay off down the line, which it will. If we had done Mpact, or if he hadn't had the scholarships at MSU, it wouldn't have happened.
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