GOT
- Thread starter msstate7
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Can’t argue there. There have been some questionable moments throughout this entire season, but the scene of the dragon going down in episode 4 was just bad. No other way to put it
There’s no way to explain how a 17ing fleet of ships stayed hidden from two dragons flying 3-4,000 feet in the air. There’s no way to explain the luck involved with hitting multiple perfect shots from that distance. And while we’re at it, go ahead and make jokes about this complaint being that we’re talking about a show with walking dead and zombies. However, can we talk about the sheer physics for a minute? I’m guessing those scorpion bolts weigh what... 500 lb or so? How the 17 do you create enough torque with wood and chains to send one of those things a thousand yards through the air and plunging into typically impenetrable dragon scale?
There’s no way to explain how a 17ing fleet of ships stayed hidden from two dragons flying 3-4,000 feet in the air. There’s no way to explain the luck involved with hitting multiple perfect shots from that distance. And while we’re at it, go ahead and make jokes about this complaint being that we’re talking about a show with walking dead and zombies. However, can we talk about the sheer physics for a minute? I’m guessing those scorpion bolts weigh what... 500 lb or so? How the 17 do you create enough torque with wood and chains to send one of those things a thousand yards through the air and plunging into typically impenetrable dragon scale?
I have no problem with them lighting up the dragon the previous week. I just wish they had Dany (or her side) come up with an actual solution to combat the bolts instead of just going in full speed ahead
I can see that except I think Dany executes Tyrion for betraying her by freeing Jaime. Tyrion makes matters worse by calling her a Mad Queen and begging Jon to depose her.
Loved how flat they shot when they shot at the ships.
Yeah in episode 4 she is diving on the ships after they kill the dragon and avoids a volley. She then decides to pull off as they were having to reload. The reload had to take some amount of time.
Last night she flies directly at and through 4 or 5 times as many scorpions and doesn't get hit and takes them all out like nothing. Guess she was just determined this time.
Yeah in episode 4 she is diving on the ships after they kill the dragon and avoids a volley. She then decides to pull off as they were having to reload. The reload had to take some amount of time.
Last night she flies directly at and through 4 or 5 times as many scorpions and doesn't get hit and takes them all out like nothing. Guess she was just determined this time.
Arya's ability to disguise herself with the face of the dead will be wasted if it is not used in this last episode. She learns all that and only kills Walder Frey in that manner. She has got to kill Dany in that way or they wasted another thing they built up all these years.
Lots of people are pointing out that Arya's last-minute Uber horse has some biblical parallels:
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. -- Revelation, 6:8
Best post of the thread... but not sure ir literal sword is better because it still is GoT
Did anyone else totally miss...
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that Varys was trying to poison Dany with the little girl bringing her food? I totally just thought it was an exposition scene to tell us that Dany was distraught but now it looks more and more like he was trying to kill her.
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that Varys was trying to poison Dany with the little girl bringing her food? I totally just thought it was an exposition scene to tell us that Dany was distraught but now it looks more and more like he was trying to kill her.
Yeah, but its hard to see her doing that without it coming across as extremely forced. Whose face would she use? Keep in mind that it would have to be someone Dany holds in close confidence. Khal Drago is definitely out. Messandei, she’s out as Dany watched her get decapitated. Jamie is out, Dany no longer trusts him and he’s buried beneath a pile of rubble. Varys is out. Tyrion is still alive (and that would be a dead giveaway if a 5’6” Tyrion walked in anyway). I just don’t see how it makes sense, and I also don’t think they make Arya the badass that slays both the Night King and the Mad Queen. I think Jon has to do it. And when you consider that Jon has no high profile deaths at his hands over the course of the entire series, it makes sense.
However, I did really, really think she was about to off Cersei as Jamie in the last episode, with how Jamie struggled off after the Euron fight with a mortal wound and Arya had just separated from the Hound. That one had me on the edge of my seat for a bit.
Could happen, she’d have to kill Greyworm first though (maybe off-screen, for added dramatics). I still think it’s Jon or nobody. We’ll see.
A crazy thought just crossed my mind, but what if Dany does get taken out this week, and the series ends by Jon dissolving the iron throne?
I mean, King’s landing is pretty much gone anyway, so at the least... you’d think it would have to be relocated. After last week, though, I just have this weird feeling that no one is going to end up on it
I mean, King’s landing is pretty much gone anyway, so at the least... you’d think it would have to be relocated. After last week, though, I just have this weird feeling that no one is going to end up on it
You are right. At the time I was pretty sure the target was Drogon, not Dany. But in rewatching, it definitely was "she is not eating".
Basically, she was justified in everything she did in the entire series up until she lifted off after those bells rang. There was brutality along the way, but always justified brutality. And then she proceeded to do more damage than any tyrant we've known in this series -- or any Targaryen in history. She literally fulfilled her father she never knew's dying wish.
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The other point is that Rhaegal was already wounded and flying much more slowly and with less maneuverability (theoretically). So it was an easier target (albeit still a difficult one).
i'm hoping the last bit of the spoilers are a troll job by someone. none of the last couple of things with Jon or Bran make any sense.
If they do those things we have all read, then they are completely breaking their own rules.
The spoiler about Bran would break their own plot. It has been said repeatedly that Bran is not Bran anymore. That's the one thing in the spoilers that I read that I just can't swallow. I won't say more right now in case you folks have not read it.
But they have **** on everything else they built in the last seven seasons, so why would they stop there.
But they have **** on everything else they built in the last seven seasons, so why would they stop there.
I agree completely but they have shredded their own character arc with Dany, so all bets are off.
Think of all those poor folks who named their kid Daenerys or Khaleesi because she was a medival super woman and now she is a batshit crazy mass murderer.
I knew something was up when they played that old soundbite at the begining of the episode,"A Targeryan child alone in the world is a terrible thing."
very true. I was still following along until the last episode, but they lost me there. and with the spoilers. I just can't see how they can come to that logical conclusion. i didn't expect a happy ending either. Like i expected a bittersweet ending as they say, but the spoiler ending would just be dumb not unhappy or bittersweet.
I actually disagree with most of you on the hate for this episode. In a vacuum, this episode was incredible. A work of art visually, incredible acting AND, wait for it, a good and believable story in GOT terms. It wasn’t perfect. But it was great. Could there have been more background on a lot of the characters and their decisions? Sure. And I don’t feel like typing it all out, but this video is a) hilarious and b) a good review in the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uNgQ-lK9ks
It will have to be a Targaryan that kills Dany. So I'm thinking Jon or one last bomb shell gets dropped that Tyrian is actually Targaryan. I mean the dude did touch a dragon in the dungeon. My longshot money is on him sitting on the Iron Throne after killing Dany.
I think Tyrion gets brought up for execution, then does what Tyrion does. Trial by combat....Bronn fights for him again out of self-preservation for his claim to Highgarden. Dany of course names Greyworm. Be interesting to see how it plays out from there. But that brings Bronn back in a sensible way at least, and perhaps gives a fitting end to his arc either way.
That's all they have ever done since they went off book. It's so agitating to have been so invested all along, when the thing that made the show special has been crap since it went off book even with all the awesome moments. We no longer have characters, just magical pawns moving wherever D&D want them all over their board and multiplying/dividing as needed. Her unsullied army is larger now than when she initially took it, after being down to a skeleton crew in S5. And it's not like that's the majority of the unsullied in the world -- just one master in Astapor's. Unlike the Dothraki, where she took over a bunch of khalasars at once.
Just the crap on "thousands of innocents will die" for delaying two seasons on taking KL and them refusing to do it because of this supposed "fact", while allowing Cersei to mount a believable defense setup and all of her "trusted" advisors to be picked off. Even then Dany and her coalition take KL extremely easily without practically any innocent casualties in how they chose to shoot the battle. It's over and done. Cleanly. Could have been done 7 minutes after she arrived in Westeros. Just the unsullied and a dragon blast through the wall of KL and wall of the Red Keep. And we knew it all along which has made the "build up" to this route infuriating to behold. Then she could have taken a united realm north for the war against the WW in numbers and situation that allow the possibility of winning without them having to cook the books with the whole "there's a Night King and they are all a hivemind" which I don't expect to exist on the page. Then you can montage her descent into madness over the years that follow since you haven't really given examples of her overtly going over the top in the show.
I guess she judged them guilty for not rising up like the slaves in Meereen did, punishable by death. Or maybe she figured a clean slate was the way to start after all of the trouble she had ruling democratically in Meereen. Either way it didn't feel earned to me. Now she is going to die the biggest villain in the history of that world most likely.
And a beloved character is probably going to both be a kinslayer and kingslayer because of it. And if the leaks are true, the cripple who just turned down his birthright of Winterfell because he doesn't desire anything(after we spent 3 seasons ignoring the patriarchy) -- who, like Dany -- can not have children is going to be given the 7 Kingdoms to manage. Maybe D&D thought this through and there's something brought into it about his ability to live hundreds of years through the weirwoods, giving Bran the ability to bring longterm stability to the realm singlehandedly, instead of relying on unreliable offspring, but I doubt it. So basically there will not ever be a clean line of ascent to the throne -- and we're looking at more civil war for the position once Bran is finally gone. BUT it does tee him up to be Bran the Builder all over again and make sense of how that figure was able to allegedly accomplish so much in a single lifetime
I don’t think the show is given enough credit for building her up to be the Mad Queen. The signs were always there.
After she found the slave children crucified in Mereen, she gathered up 163 of the ruling class and crucified them in retaliation. The son of one of the victims goes to her in anger and tells her that his father was actually a good man who advocated for the abolition of slavery.
She burned every single surviving Khal for refusing her demands.
She burned Randall and Dickon Tarly for refusing to bend the knee. Besides being extremely cruel, it was foolish, as the Tarlys just may have been the most powerful surviving family in The Reach.
When she arrived in Westeros and found out that the fate of humanity was at stake, she stubbornly refused to help until the newly crowned King in the North bent the knee.
She’s always been a sociopath.
After she found the slave children crucified in Mereen, she gathered up 163 of the ruling class and crucified them in retaliation. The son of one of the victims goes to her in anger and tells her that his father was actually a good man who advocated for the abolition of slavery.
She burned every single surviving Khal for refusing her demands.
She burned Randall and Dickon Tarly for refusing to bend the knee. Besides being extremely cruel, it was foolish, as the Tarlys just may have been the most powerful surviving family in The Reach.
When she arrived in Westeros and found out that the fate of humanity was at stake, she stubbornly refused to help until the newly crowned King in the North bent the knee.
She’s always been a sociopath.
This. Anyone who thinks this turn for Daenarys came out of nowhere must not have been paying attention to seasons 1-7. She's always had it in her. I think she'd finally just run out of patience.
And she watched her brother get melted to death with no emotion.
I get all that. But it's the murdering of the innocents that are completely out of character for her. She has never done that in all her moments of rage. What the show has shown is that she is extremely ruthless towards her enemies. It hasn't shown that she is blindly mad with rage against innocent people, it's done the exact opposite. So, for her to murder innocent people does not make any sense. I get what they are trying to do and say, but they just did a quick, ****** job of telling it.
I would be fine with everything that happened this season, and I actually like the story they are trying to tell - my issue is that it has been told so shittily and rushed. HBO offered them 10eps but they said nah brah we only need 6. 17 you you don't need 10eps. The show's appeal is it's in-depth story telling and they put 2 seasons worth of show into 6 episodes. Without GRRMs storytelling and plot development these guys didn't know what the 17 to do. This Star Wars saga better be 17ing worth it to rush through the last season like this.
A brutal but appropriate reaction to what happened there. Obviously she didn't crucify enough of them given the Harpy situation which came afterwards. And I find it odd that Hizdahr's supposedly progressive daddy obviously still hugely supported slave fighting in the pits of Meereen, as did Hizdahr himself. Ah, yes "they must be free men". Yet Jorah and Tyrion obviously weren't free men at the time they were thrown into the pits.
Every Khal there were in the process of sentencing her to life in that temple before hearing her speak and then being intent on raping her to death. That was directly before she destroyed them.
They were in open rebellion against her rule and made it very clear that they intended to remain that way, along with many remaining captured lords from that battle. Tyrion's exposition in the show made it look like she had a bunch of choices, but she didn't. She could have imprisoned them for awhile. But do you think Randyll was going to bend? Do you think Dickon would have after seeing his father burned? Would have been like asking Robb to bend the knee after what happened to Ned. How was it any different from what Jon did to Olly? At least Olly had a reason to feel and act how he did when the Tarlys had no reason to side with the Lannisters in the deal when it was realistically obvious they stood no chance, sans the show's constant toying with numbers.
Last I checked -- she went and saved their asses before any bending had occurred. Her path was already clear once she saw the army of the dead. Jon didn't need to bend at that point to have her assistance in the war.
She's been brutal at times, like EVERY SINGLE character in the story. Maybe even slightlyyyy across the line a time or two. But her actions had never been totally incongruent with the circumstance at hand on the show, until she launched that dragon after hearing those bells. How will any of her men remain loyal to her? Thousands of them would have been realistically killed as well in that genocide. Especially when the wildfire started going off.
The show made sure we didn't forget that Targaryen's have a history of losing their ****. True. They didn't show any clear indication Dany was ready to burn ~100k~ innocent men, women, and children for NO REASON after the end of a battle she had already won in a city she had promised to liberate. And did a very poor job along the way of showing all the collateral damage everytime Drogon was unleashed. Show him kill a thousand innocents in the pits of Meereen? Friendly fire a couple hundred northmen and dothraki at Winterfell? Etc.... Sure, maybe.
The fact remains, she went crazier than any Targ in history and did more damage than any Targ in history. There were a bunch of insane ones along the way. But they didn't murder tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent smallfolk just for the hell of it.
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I don’t see them having shredded her arc. They’ve just accelerated it at a pace unseen on this show until fast travel was introduced in season seven. She has always shown a predisposition for cruelty. She lost the only person that grounded when Jorah fell. She went through about a season’s worth of what would have felt like an organic decay of state of mind in hyperdrive. She was the messianic figure in Essos because they saw her deeds first hand. Upon arrival on Dragon Stone her rep resets and the doubt starts. She goes North to fight an existential crisis that was delayed her March to King’s Landing. In the process she first loses a dragon to rescue Jon from a completely insane mission that was always going to fail - because working with Cersei was never an option and the Westerosi leaders should have known that.
So in the process of the “let’s take a wight to the capital” Daenerys has to come to the aid of Mr. Failing Upward himself and she loses her first dragon. Then a few days later she finds out that she doesn’t have a rightful claim to the throne, on that same night she loses 99% of her most loyal troops under the helm of Jon’s command. All of this makes sense so far if you think of Jon as a dude who’s doing his best under the circumstances (blah blah blah, I’ve looked death in the eye). In an un-rushed version of season eight we get more time to build the unease following the battle with the dead. They hit the highlights but the importance of the northerners looking at Jon the same way those from Essos looked at Daenerys is important. But they only have time to hit it once and not let it simmer and slowly turn up the heat. Same goes with the tension with Sansa. My biggest issue there is that they never really show us Sansa’s motivation beyond the most basic thread. But given more time that would get to the same place and work to push Daenerys towards a place of isolation.
If they just slow play the tension that is present and allow it to have time to breath and grow then the Mad Queen payoff feels more earned. And that I am completely on board with the criticism of. Also part of this breakdown is on Jon. To borrow an idea from a podcast I listen to - for Jon Snow to model his life/ethics/morals after Ned Stark and to have him not be able to see the importance of keeping the R+L=J reveal a guarded secret when it was Ned’s ability to keep that same secret through is execution is questionable and is definitely something that drives plot to the destruction of king’s Landing.
But to get back to the main point, there has definitely been a through line since her beginning for Daenerys to have this kind of plot completion. The biggest thing that kind of sticks in my craw is that after the bells ring and she decides to go full on heel, they could have had her go directly to the red keep and lay waste. There would have been civilian casualties and the loss would have felt just as real, but to have her systematically sweep the city with dragon breath was not true to her character.
Having said that, on the whole and including the questionable plot decisions, It was one of my favorite episodes in the history of the series.
So in the process of the “let’s take a wight to the capital” Daenerys has to come to the aid of Mr. Failing Upward himself and she loses her first dragon. Then a few days later she finds out that she doesn’t have a rightful claim to the throne, on that same night she loses 99% of her most loyal troops under the helm of Jon’s command. All of this makes sense so far if you think of Jon as a dude who’s doing his best under the circumstances (blah blah blah, I’ve looked death in the eye). In an un-rushed version of season eight we get more time to build the unease following the battle with the dead. They hit the highlights but the importance of the northerners looking at Jon the same way those from Essos looked at Daenerys is important. But they only have time to hit it once and not let it simmer and slowly turn up the heat. Same goes with the tension with Sansa. My biggest issue there is that they never really show us Sansa’s motivation beyond the most basic thread. But given more time that would get to the same place and work to push Daenerys towards a place of isolation.
If they just slow play the tension that is present and allow it to have time to breath and grow then the Mad Queen payoff feels more earned. And that I am completely on board with the criticism of. Also part of this breakdown is on Jon. To borrow an idea from a podcast I listen to - for Jon Snow to model his life/ethics/morals after Ned Stark and to have him not be able to see the importance of keeping the R+L=J reveal a guarded secret when it was Ned’s ability to keep that same secret through is execution is questionable and is definitely something that drives plot to the destruction of king’s Landing.
But to get back to the main point, there has definitely been a through line since her beginning for Daenerys to have this kind of plot completion. The biggest thing that kind of sticks in my craw is that after the bells ring and she decides to go full on heel, they could have had her go directly to the red keep and lay waste. There would have been civilian casualties and the loss would have felt just as real, but to have her systematically sweep the city with dragon breath was not true to her character.
Having said that, on the whole and including the questionable plot decisions, It was one of my favorite episodes in the history of the series.
Nah. I think its been clear that she has been obsessed with power the whole show. All the titles and everything.
Also, at this point she has lost all of trusted advisers, feels betrayed by the people around her, and she lost 2 of her dragons (which she considers to be her children). This means she has no one to ground her and doesn't have anyone to turn too.
I think they did good job of foreshadowing her downfall, but like with everything this season it seems a hurried. This season could of literally been stretched out over 2 seasons.
At this point complaining about the writing is beating a dead horse. Watching the show from the beginning will be a lot different knowing how it ends.
Also, at this point she has lost all of trusted advisers, feels betrayed by the people around her, and she lost 2 of her dragons (which she considers to be her children). This means she has no one to ground her and doesn't have anyone to turn too.
I think they did good job of foreshadowing her downfall, but like with everything this season it seems a hurried. This season could of literally been stretched out over 2 seasons.
At this point complaining about the writing is beating a dead horse. Watching the show from the beginning will be a lot different knowing how it ends.
It is like we are missing a season. That year hiatus, I think, has done the series a disservice. We needed one more season before the final one. The whole Dorne fiasco could have been done properly. Euron does way more in the books than he does in the series. For example, the whole Salt King moot is ten times better in the book. He brings his dragon horn that he found in the ruins of Old Valyria. He's a cunning night shade drinking psycho in the books. His character development in the series is very limited.