McShay with 4 first round picks from MSU
- Thread starter 57stratdawg
- Start date
16. Simmons
20. Sweat
28. Abram
32. Jenkins
I found it interesting that A.J. Brown is number 29. Seems low. But that is the No. 2 receiver.
20. Sweat
28. Abram
32. Jenkins
I found it interesting that A.J. Brown is number 29. Seems low. But that is the No. 2 receiver.
It may be, but what you typed doesn't prove it. It just means we have 4 great players.
And Coach Joe wasted them by not Running the damn ball with our RB's against LSU, UF and UK.
We legitimately could be 10-1 right now.
Abram has helped himself a lot in the last few games to really climb up the ladder. He deserves it.
This!!
Just because many of you don't know much MSU before 1995, it still existed. The 1980 D held the two time defending NC's to 3 points. 3.
Glen Collins was an AA went 26th in the 1st Rd of the 1982 NFL Draft.
Johnie Cooks was a consensus 1st Team AA and went 2nd in the 1st Rd of the 1982 NFL draft. Still remember Bob Hope used to introduce the AA's on his show. Said Cooks needed to be tagged as a truck.
Tyrone Keys was 6'7" and went in the 5th Rd of the 1981 NFL draft. Played 8 years of pro ball and was a member of the legendary "Shuffling Crew" for the 1985 Chicago Bear Super Bowl champs.
Billy Jackson was a frosh on the 1980 D and had an MSU record 17 sacks that year. He finished his career as a 3 time 1st team All SEC DE with 49 career sacks. A 6'1" 225 frame kept him from a pro career, but he is one of the best to ever play D at State.
Been around more than 50 years. 1980, 1999 and 2018 (every 19 years I guess) are the 3 best D's I've seen at MSU. Lotta good ones in between. Even when we've sucked, other teams generally knew we were gonna bring it on D.
It was a different game then.
Imagine this defense, knowing that the offense is going to run the ball 65% of the time? It's much harder to play defense these days with the elite passing and receiving skills of offenses and rules in place to protect offensive players and liberal pass interference rules.
If THIS defense would have played in 1980, we would have gone undefeated and probably unscored on. In 1980, USM hung 42 on us, and Nebraska, LSU, and Miami all hung 31 on us. That's why it's usually wasted time to compare greatness across eras.
1999 was the greatest defense I think we ever had, because we had an elite secondary to go with an elite front. But this year's defense is a damn close second.
Imagine this defense, knowing that the offense is going to run the ball 65% of the time? It's much harder to play defense these days with the elite passing and receiving skills of offenses and rules in place to protect offensive players and liberal pass interference rules.
If THIS defense would have played in 1980, we would have gone undefeated and probably unscored on. In 1980, USM hung 42 on us, and Nebraska, LSU, and Miami all hung 31 on us. That's why it's usually wasted time to compare greatness across eras.
1999 was the greatest defense I think we ever had, because we had an elite secondary to go with an elite front. But this year's defense is a damn close second.
Agree. There's a reason I don't remember the DB's on that 80 team. 99 and 18 were/are better overall D's. This is probably the deepest defense we've ever had in terms of # of quality players to throw out there.
I'm sure that some sort of ownership bias (might not be the right one) that comes from having seen the older teams play and feeling like they get short shrift when these types of discussions are had. But I think that 1999 and 2018 are pretty dang close for the best. I give a few bonus points to 2018 because they're doing it in the most offensively friendly environment that football has ever seen. This team has given up 12.8 points per game. Has allowed zero rushing touchdowns at home, and only 12 for the season. It's tough to scrape 1980 data, but a quick review of scores shows that team gave up 20.1 points per game. So right of the top they're worse at doing what a defense is asked to do.
PPG allowed:
2018: 12.8
1999: 13
1980: 20.1
YPG:
2018: 275
1999: 222
1980: 294
But to your point, that team had a guy who went in the second round one year, and a fifth rounder a different year. This team could have three guys go in the first round of same draft. It would be by far the biggest draft night story line associated with Mississippi State.
PPG allowed:
2018: 12.8
1999: 13
1980: 20.1
YPG:
2018: 275
1999: 222
1980: 294
But to your point, that team had a guy who went in the second round one year, and a fifth rounder a different year. This team could have three guys go in the first round of same draft. It would be by far the biggest draft night story line associated with Mississippi State.
I agree except in one aspect. There were players in 1999 that could not play in this era (thinking specifically about Josh Morgan, but not just him). To rival 1999's stats in this era makes me give the nod to 2018.
I could see Josh in a nickel safety role, but he wouldn't be able to stay on the field, either because he was getting abused by five wide sets, or he was getting a targeting penalty every game. Smoot and Bean were better than anything we have at corner, though.
Just in the interest of accuracy. Team had two guys who went in the 1st round in 1982 and another who might have had a better pro career than those two.
I think it's certainly more the memory of that single defensive performance in our greatest win ever than the body of work, but they definitely were a stout D line.
If someone gets Simmons at 16 they are getting a steal. Everyone else seems about right.
Only mentioned for the one hundreth time! Do you think this makes you look smart for repeating it over and over?
Give it a break Dude!
Exaggerate much? 100 times, really? maybe 5 times.
And I am not the only one who feels this way.
Maybe a little, but way more than 5 times. Point is we heard you the first time. Doesn't matter who all feels that way. They ain't working it into every thread they post in.
We get it, now give it a rest.
Let's take this objectively....
And note it won't be solved until the final freshman that played this year has graduated and gone through that most objective measurement of talent: the NFL.
NFL draftees from 1980 defense:
Tyrone Keys - 1981 draft, pick 113
Wille Jackson - 1981 draft, pick 294
Larry Friday - 1981 draft, pick 298
Johnnie Cooks - 1982 draft, pick 2
Glen Collins - 1982 draft, pick 26
Curtis Stowers - 1982 draft, pick 262
NFL draftees from 1999 defense (max pick # of 254 due to shorter draft):
Alvin McKinley - 2000 draft, pick 120
Robert Bean - 2000 draft, pick 133
John Hilliard - 2000 draft, pick 190
Fred Smoot - 2001 draft, pick 45
Willie Blade - 2001 draft, pick 93
Ellis Wyms - 2001 draft, pick 183
Dorsett Davis - 2002 draft, pick 96
Mario Haggan - 2003 draft, pick 228
8 vs 6, and 3 of those 6 wouldn't have been picked in the modern era. Point for 1999.
*Off the top of my head, I can't think of any undrafted free agents for either squad that made a big splash.
On the subject of comparable competition, the SEC only had 3 teams in the final AP Poll (out of 10). UGA, Bama, and State. Auburn and Florida had been ranked at a few junctures earlier in the season, as had Southern Miss. Miami was ranked when State played them, finishing the year with a 2-1 record against the Top 25.
The SEC had 7 out of 12 teams ranked in the final AP Poll of 1999. State finished the year with a record of 1-2 against the Top 25.
I'll also say that the NCAA football offenses of 1980 to me are generally comparable to 1999. Neither years are comparable to the modern era of the spread and hurry up.
That makes the 2018 defensive accomplishments all the more impressive. We should get back together in 4 years and compare notes.
And note it won't be solved until the final freshman that played this year has graduated and gone through that most objective measurement of talent: the NFL.
NFL draftees from 1980 defense:
Tyrone Keys - 1981 draft, pick 113
Wille Jackson - 1981 draft, pick 294
Larry Friday - 1981 draft, pick 298
Johnnie Cooks - 1982 draft, pick 2
Glen Collins - 1982 draft, pick 26
Curtis Stowers - 1982 draft, pick 262
NFL draftees from 1999 defense (max pick # of 254 due to shorter draft):
Alvin McKinley - 2000 draft, pick 120
Robert Bean - 2000 draft, pick 133
John Hilliard - 2000 draft, pick 190
Fred Smoot - 2001 draft, pick 45
Willie Blade - 2001 draft, pick 93
Ellis Wyms - 2001 draft, pick 183
Dorsett Davis - 2002 draft, pick 96
Mario Haggan - 2003 draft, pick 228
8 vs 6, and 3 of those 6 wouldn't have been picked in the modern era. Point for 1999.
*Off the top of my head, I can't think of any undrafted free agents for either squad that made a big splash.
On the subject of comparable competition, the SEC only had 3 teams in the final AP Poll (out of 10). UGA, Bama, and State. Auburn and Florida had been ranked at a few junctures earlier in the season, as had Southern Miss. Miami was ranked when State played them, finishing the year with a 2-1 record against the Top 25.
The SEC had 7 out of 12 teams ranked in the final AP Poll of 1999. State finished the year with a record of 1-2 against the Top 25.
I'll also say that the NCAA football offenses of 1980 to me are generally comparable to 1999. Neither years are comparable to the modern era of the spread and hurry up.
That makes the 2018 defensive accomplishments all the more impressive. We should get back together in 4 years and compare notes.
2018 Defense >>>> 1999 defense
1999 defense played against maybe the worst SEC West ever, along with Kentucky, South Carolina, and Vandy from the East. Combined conference record of the teams we beat was 13-35 (and 24-40 for all our opponents). A whole bunch of terrible offensive opponents somewhat propped up that No. 1 ranking.
Also, the talent up front was very deep with good college football players, but was not elite by any means. Ellis Wyms and Mario Haggan were the only players from that two-deep front 6 that played on Sundays, and neither had lengthy careers. Compare that to this roster where you have Sweat, Simmons, Thompson, Green, and maybe Gay and Lewis who could all potentially all make it.
Alvin McKinley and John Hilliard both were drafted and spent decent time in the NFL. Barrin Simpson was just about the best defensive player in the CFL for a number of years.
It is hard to compare teams over such different eras and their accompanying playing styles and rules differences. However, at this point I am going with 2018 with the understanding that the verdict is not quite in yet on this team. My reasoning is that they have performed at this level DESPITE having an offense that has had much difficulty staying on the field and scored in single digits in all four losses. This team also has done this in the era of playing 2x or more ranked teams than in 99 or 80 including a bama Juggernaut that came in averaging like 50 points a game.
The 99 team was very consistent like this squad has been. 1980 team had the best overall win and best run at 'muderers row' but the defense gave up 31+ points 4 times.
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Upon further review you are right, and I also forgot about Dorsett Davis and Willie Blade who were also drafted, although none of the 4 went very high and I think only McKinley, Wyms, and Haggan played longer than a few years.
Loved that 1980 D but they gave up 42 to USM and 31 three different times. They gave up an average of 20.5 a game. The 2018 D is the best IMO. 12 total TD’s to this point. Crazy good
I was referring to aj brown
His initial step is very slow. That gap he gets to hide this in college wont be in the pros. Dude has great vision and hands but watch his film and youll see 2 glaring issues: initial seperation and he pushes off on every play (hes very good at this too; he learned how to give the slightest push at the right spot on his defender at the perfect moment that kills his momentum to jump while creating just the perfect amount of leverage)
I wouldn't waste a 1at rd pick but def take a chance in 2nd
His initial step is very slow. That gap he gets to hide this in college wont be in the pros. Dude has great vision and hands but watch his film and youll see 2 glaring issues: initial seperation and he pushes off on every play (hes very good at this too; he learned how to give the slightest push at the right spot on his defender at the perfect moment that kills his momentum to jump while creating just the perfect amount of leverage)
I wouldn't waste a 1at rd pick but def take a chance in 2nd
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