No offense, but you need to chill the 17 out. You were in a massive ***** session and I was tired of reading it. If you do it again I'll tell you the same.
RUMOR: Butch to State
- Thread starter DawgatAuburn
- Start date
No offense, but you need to chill the 17 out. You were in a massive ***** session and I was tired of reading it. If you do it again I'll tell you the same.
Just be cool if you are cool. I disagreed with ya. You took it to an ugly level
Ok. We've got lots of kids getting full rides. That's why our GPA has been improving as a team every year for a decade or more.
Vandy isn't a prime example of anything. Vandy is an ultimate outlier in college baseball. And there is nothing that we can do to have that.
All you are actually doing here is making the case that Cannizaro's trio of upcoming top 5 classes are even more impressive than they are on paper. You are simply arguing against yourself.
What's actually silly is arguing against what all of the data actually tells you -- simply because you feel spurned.
Vandy is an elite recruiter because of Tim Corbin and really moreso Derek Johnson when he was there. They've had the same advantage for years pre-Corbin. The difference is now they have a coach that can identify talent and has proven that he can get guys to MLB. And really it's more pitchers than hitters although sure they have produced a few like Pedro Alvarez, Dansby Swanson, Tony Kemp, Jaren Kendall, and etc. But the reason why those players are going there is not for the Vandy education or the free ride- it's because Corbin can get them to MLB and improve them as players. Those players care about a Vanderbilt education just as much as they care about the stadium, LFL, and bar-b-que. Most of them aren't even going to get degrees. They're there to play baseball.
And that's why Cohen hired a guy like Cann in the first place. Because a coach with that kind of background is what we need to take our program to the level we want it to be at. That's really why we weren't playing with a full deck- Polk and Cohen didn't have those connections.
Tim Corbin making it to Super Regionals:
1. Prior to scholarship rule change - 1 in 7 seasons
2. Post scholarship rule change - 6 in 8 seasons
Tim Corbin finishing higher than 6th in the SEC:
1. Prior to scholarship change - 1 in 7
2. Post scholarship change - 8 in 8 seasons, never lower than 3rd, 3 times in 1st
Did the light bulb suddenly go on for Tim Corbin in 2010, after 7 years as a HC at Vandy with decent success, or did the rule change that occurred in 2009 make it harder for most of his competitors in 2010 and beyond?
1. Prior to scholarship rule change - 1 in 7 seasons
2. Post scholarship rule change - 6 in 8 seasons
Tim Corbin finishing higher than 6th in the SEC:
1. Prior to scholarship change - 1 in 7
2. Post scholarship change - 8 in 8 seasons, never lower than 3rd, 3 times in 1st
Did the light bulb suddenly go on for Tim Corbin in 2010, after 7 years as a HC at Vandy with decent success, or did the rule change that occurred in 2009 make it harder for most of his competitors in 2010 and beyond?
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Not nearly as many as Vandy and LSU. And we are far, far more isolated from the talent than them. Those are just facts. Indisputable.
On this we can agree, to an extent. That’s kind of my point. They (and some others) have major advantages that we will never have. But they aren’t the only outlier. They are one of only 2-3 schools nationally (with LSU being another and arguably UF also being up there) that are even capable of stringing together multiple LEGITIMATE Top 5 classes for multiple years in a row for sny appreciable period of time (“legitimate” meaning taking into account who actually makes it to campus). MSU isn’t ever going to be there under the current status quo. That doesn’t mean we can’t compete for national titles, but it does mean we have to be that much better at development than those small handful of schools. The combination of winning tradition, close location to major population areas for prospects, and built-in advantages with scholarships are where you hit the sweet spot for elite recruiting. MSU only has one of those 3 things.
This is about the dumbest drivel that I think I’ve ever read. Spurned by whom? How could Cannizaro’s “trio of upcoming Top 5 classes” be impressive at all? They aren’t here and likely won’t ever be here. He got shitcanned before his first class ever showed up. What is it that is impressive about highly rated sophomores and juniors who will never set foot on campus committing to us for a brief period of time? And, for the record, we are talking about a guy who went to a super regional and completely lost the entire team less than 5 months afterwards. And when I say “lost the team” I mean to the extent that it was a big part of him getting fired. So pardon my ignorance if I don’t think that a guy who 17ed up a wet dream in less than half a year could hold together, sign, and retain through the draft even one Top 5 class. Everything you are talking about with Cann’s recruiting is complete fool’s gold. The dude is gone and we are way, way better for it....as much as it hurts this year.
I think the light bulb went on because by that time he had turned David Price, Casey Weathers, Pedro Alvarez, Mike Minor, Ryan Flaherty and Jeremy Sowers into first round picks plus Sonny Gray was already on the team at that point. They were a bad program for awhile- I believe Corbin had a losing season in year one. So, it would stand to reason that it would take them a few years to get established. The other thing is most of their guys that they put in MLB are pitchers. If you have this huge scholarship advantage why build a small ball team for the most part? That's where the coaching evaluation comes in as far as player signability. Vanderbilt has that advantage moreso on the pitching side than the hitting side.
The other reason I think that is because Florida and LSU used the same scouting model as Vanderbilt and they don't have the endowment advantage although LSU does have the Lottery Scholarships. We were also starting to use that model as well and in the very small sample size our recruiting rankings have gone up since then.
He currently has worst program in the West in the Top 15, but you go on ahead with your ignorant takes. Butch would be a very good hire.
That said, if we don’t hire someone like McDonnell or Schlossnagle, don’t be naive enough to assume we didn’t even try. There is too much smoke around McDonnell’s name for us to have not at least reached out to him.
"Just indisputable facts"? Well explain to me why our 2013 team is about to have the most on-roster guys make the Show of any team in the history of the conference.
You are taking what you've heard from other people that heard them from someone else that was making excuses and regurgitating them as fact. Polk's excuse book. While Cohen consistently finds more and more endowed private leadership scholarship $$ and goes around the 11.7 the same way MC used to go around the no athletics scholarship rule. And PS: The current JR class on campus with all of the blown out arms was a "legitimate" #2 class in 2015 after the dust settled on the MLB draft. Feel free to look it up. You are going to have a hard time convincing me that we can't possibly go to a place we've already been -- just with a little more consistency.
They are just a close to being here as a single one of those players are in any of the other classes at other schools. You are still hung up on "we lose all our good playerZ and everyone else gets all of theirs!11!11" and it's just wrong. Would have been proven hilariously wrong on Canni and Gautreau had he not lost his mind. All of those guys are still committed and in communication with Cohen and MSU. We will lose a bunch of them to MLB but not a disproportionate number to everybody else.
Holla at me when there is mass decommitments. But you are right -- what is impressive about getting the #1 overall recruits in both of those classes committed early when they had offers from everywhere?**
He put together 3 elite classes in a couple of months -- that -- to the best of my knowledge have not seen one single decommitment yet. He had a system to win a championship here by going after all of the elite guys and using his many MLB connections in the scouting world to hear what players were telling guys on the other side of the coin in advance and thus have a much, much clearer picture of who was likely to show up and who was gone in the draft -- allowing him to compensate for it much earlier than we were able to under Cohen -- which is how we ended up sinking or swimming with late JUCO replacements for draft guys that Cohen believed right up until the end were going to be here. We were(are -- with whoever Cohen hires it will be a huge factor) going to much better evaluate draft risk much earlier and then compensate much better. Basically doing exactly what Florida does that gets them 1-2 elite guys into school almost every year.
Through his first 7 years Corbin averaged a 6th-place finish in the SEC...exactly where he finished his first season. 7 years is a pretty long time. John Cohen got us humming a lot sooner, and he inherited a mess at least as big, and also had the severe scholarship restrictions Corbin did not have.
UF also has lottery scholarships, and the minimum ACT requirements the first 3 years were just 20, 21 & 22. That made it pretty easy to offer additional aid via the lottery route.
So, Corbin did not have as great an advantage vs them, though he did have some. At MSU, Corbin would have no scholarship advantage and no lottery to help close that gap we have vs other programs.
Truth is, we can't really make an educated guess how Tim would do as HC at a program without the advantages he has enjoyed at Vandy. The closest we can come is to consider his record the first 7 years, but even then, Vandy could offer as much and as many full-rides as they wanted to.
We can say Corbin did better his first 7 years than his predecessor at Vandy, though not as well as the HC before that. We can also say that Corbin's success ramped up significantly the year after the NCAA mandated that every baseball scholarship had to be no less than 25%, and spread to no more than 27 players with those 11.7 available.
And keep in mind, that's not 11.7 per year...that's 11.7 at any given time. We're not even talking about how, during the off-season schools can exceed the 35 man limit at practices,etc. So Vandy, if they choose to can fund well beyond the 35, paying tuition for the kids who don't make that year's roster.
So while we're trying to convince some young athletes they should pay most of their tuition, including out-of-state, room & board, etc rather than get paid a $50k+ signing bonus to go to the minors, Vandy can offer all of these kids a full ride, a great education to fall back on and an opportunity to improve as ball players via off-season participation and the potential to be on the roster next year.
That's a huge advantage.
UF also has lottery scholarships, and the minimum ACT requirements the first 3 years were just 20, 21 & 22. That made it pretty easy to offer additional aid via the lottery route.
So, Corbin did not have as great an advantage vs them, though he did have some. At MSU, Corbin would have no scholarship advantage and no lottery to help close that gap we have vs other programs.
Truth is, we can't really make an educated guess how Tim would do as HC at a program without the advantages he has enjoyed at Vandy. The closest we can come is to consider his record the first 7 years, but even then, Vandy could offer as much and as many full-rides as they wanted to.
We can say Corbin did better his first 7 years than his predecessor at Vandy, though not as well as the HC before that. We can also say that Corbin's success ramped up significantly the year after the NCAA mandated that every baseball scholarship had to be no less than 25%, and spread to no more than 27 players with those 11.7 available.
And keep in mind, that's not 11.7 per year...that's 11.7 at any given time. We're not even talking about how, during the off-season schools can exceed the 35 man limit at practices,etc. So Vandy, if they choose to can fund well beyond the 35, paying tuition for the kids who don't make that year's roster.
So while we're trying to convince some young athletes they should pay most of their tuition, including out-of-state, room & board, etc rather than get paid a $50k+ signing bonus to go to the minors, Vandy can offer all of these kids a full ride, a great education to fall back on and an opportunity to improve as ball players via off-season participation and the potential to be on the roster next year.
That's a huge advantage.
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Slow up scooter
You are choosing Super Regionals because it helps make your point look better. When you're talking about program trajectory, you MUST use regular season success, not postseason, which is fluky. Corbin raised the level of play at Vandy almost immediately. That 2007 team was INSANE. What it took him a while to do, was change the culture they had up there, so they didn't choke as much
Nah. I said Supers because losing in the first round isn't all that great. 64 teams make a regional. A great coach should be able to do better than making 1 Super in 7 seasons, particularly with unlimited scholarship money.
The fact that he ramped it up exactly the year following the rules mandating that the 11.7 scholarships not be split into anything less than 25% is way too much a coincidence.
You either believe it took Corbin 8 years to get it where he had great annual success, or you believe he benefited from the major rule change that prior year.
I suspect Corbin is a pretty good coach having the kind of success a pretty good coach should have when he's holding all the aces most years.
The fact that he ramped it up exactly the year following the rules mandating that the 11.7 scholarships not be split into anything less than 25% is way too much a coincidence.
You either believe it took Corbin 8 years to get it where he had great annual success, or you believe he benefited from the major rule change that prior year.
I suspect Corbin is a pretty good coach having the kind of success a pretty good coach should have when he's holding all the aces most years.
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"For example, TCU outfielder Jerrick Suiter, who had a great year as a freshman, could have attended Vanderbilt, another private school that advanced to the CWS in 2011, and received the same amount of need-based and academic aid as he is getting at TCU with a substantial baseball scholarship.
But he would have been a "free player" at Vandy because he would have only cost the program at most, 25 percent of a full athletic scholarship, which is the minimum amount a student-athlete can be given. His academic aid at Vanderbilt would have equaled his athletic scholarship at TCU, allowing the Commodores coaches to use his baseball scholarship on another player. At TCU, the academic aid wasn't available, so Suiter, one of the top recruits in the nation a year ago, was given a substantial portion of a full athletic scholarship."
http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/article3831986.html
And each time a school has to give a significantly greater % of a scholarship to a player to keep them from going to a Vandy on a non-athletic scholarship, that leaves less for the school to offer other players.
So, let's say Vandy offers 10 of the top 10 rated pitchers a full ride, and let's say they decide to go ahead and use the 25% minimum baseball scholarship allocation on them, then cover the other 75% with their private funds. If all 10 signed with Vandy, Vandy would still have 9.2 baseball scholarships to play with for the remaining 17 players they could use them on.
If Mississippi State had to match it, we'd use 10 of our 11.7, leaving us with 1.7 scholarships to spread on 17 recruits.
Now consider that with the remaining recruits, Vandy can supplement those recruits as much as they want with non-baseball schollies, while we can't because we can't just decide to give need-based and academic scholarships to recruits over non-recruits that are more qualified.
Schools that have lottery-attached scholarships often designate them specifically so they can supplement athletic schollies, so they can close the gap some, though not all the way.
See what I mean? Because Vandy is a private school with a massive endowment, as long as they follow the NCAA rules of giving no more then the equivalent of 11.7 full baseball scholarships, and not make any less than 25%, they can offer as much of their own financial aid as they want, with no state or federal government telling them how they are supposed to decide who gets what.
That is a tremendous advantage. Corbin still has to be a good coach to make all that talent perform, but he doesn't have to be a "great" coach to be successful with that advantage. He might still also be great, but it's hard to argue he is considering the circumstances. One simply cannot logically argue that Corbin could be expected to be just as good at State, OM, Bama, etc., based solely on what he has accomplished at Vandy, particularly post 2009, when the 25% minimum rule went into effect.
But he would have been a "free player" at Vandy because he would have only cost the program at most, 25 percent of a full athletic scholarship, which is the minimum amount a student-athlete can be given. His academic aid at Vanderbilt would have equaled his athletic scholarship at TCU, allowing the Commodores coaches to use his baseball scholarship on another player. At TCU, the academic aid wasn't available, so Suiter, one of the top recruits in the nation a year ago, was given a substantial portion of a full athletic scholarship."
http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/article3831986.html
And each time a school has to give a significantly greater % of a scholarship to a player to keep them from going to a Vandy on a non-athletic scholarship, that leaves less for the school to offer other players.
So, let's say Vandy offers 10 of the top 10 rated pitchers a full ride, and let's say they decide to go ahead and use the 25% minimum baseball scholarship allocation on them, then cover the other 75% with their private funds. If all 10 signed with Vandy, Vandy would still have 9.2 baseball scholarships to play with for the remaining 17 players they could use them on.
If Mississippi State had to match it, we'd use 10 of our 11.7, leaving us with 1.7 scholarships to spread on 17 recruits.
Now consider that with the remaining recruits, Vandy can supplement those recruits as much as they want with non-baseball schollies, while we can't because we can't just decide to give need-based and academic scholarships to recruits over non-recruits that are more qualified.
Schools that have lottery-attached scholarships often designate them specifically so they can supplement athletic schollies, so they can close the gap some, though not all the way.
See what I mean? Because Vandy is a private school with a massive endowment, as long as they follow the NCAA rules of giving no more then the equivalent of 11.7 full baseball scholarships, and not make any less than 25%, they can offer as much of their own financial aid as they want, with no state or federal government telling them how they are supposed to decide who gets what.
That is a tremendous advantage. Corbin still has to be a good coach to make all that talent perform, but he doesn't have to be a "great" coach to be successful with that advantage. He might still also be great, but it's hard to argue he is considering the circumstances. One simply cannot logically argue that Corbin could be expected to be just as good at State, OM, Bama, etc., based solely on what he has accomplished at Vandy, particularly post 2009, when the 25% minimum rule went into effect.
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We have our own advantages. When we hired Cohen we had just gone to Omaha two years before and had a history of putting players in MLB not to mention we have a huge local fan base that when one of our fans has a player in the family that is a good college/pro prospect it gives us a better opportunity than most to get a player like that. Vanderbilt had none of that before Corbin. That's why Duke can't go up to some player and say "Here's a free ride" and be elite because they haven't shown that they can get guys to MLB.
We can and do offset that advantage by giving out academic aid and MSU has a tuition waiver/reduction for Alabama residents at least in certain counties there. We use those things just as much as LSU, Vanderbilt, and others but Ron Polk conditioned our fan base into believing that we're just screwed.
The bottom line is again- if we get an elite coach that has MLB scouting connections and can develop players our program will flourish and get to where we want it to be and stop underachieving. Right now we have just as many players on MLB rosters as Vanderbilt and LSU- and that's with us underachieving and having all of these perceived disadvantages. Not to mention Dakota Hudson and maybe Brent Rooker will be up in September. It's past time to stop underachieving and time to step up our program. Whether that is with a Dan McDonnell or Jim Schlossnagle or someone else that has a background similar to Cann that is an up and comer- that's what we need more than anything.
Edit to add- It's not Corbin as much as it is his assistants that are the key behind his program. I don't care if we hire him as our coach or not- but if we do I think he will be more than fine as long as his assistants come along with him. We'll find ways to offset any advantage he has with our own academic aid. Also, Cohen asked Corbin to be our coach before Cann and Corbin turned us down so I'd be surprised if we get him anyway. I'd prefer someone that has more power in the lineup anyway.
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That's operating under the assumption that we would HAVE to give them a full baseball scholarship. If we offer a 25% scholarship and then make up for the rest with academic aid then it is close to the same difference.
It was an example to prove the theory. And we can't just hand out aid without qualification. Public schools have to look at all students, not just athletes when qualifying scholarships based on merit or need.
We can arrange loans, perhaps, but that is still the player and his family assuming the debt vs full ride from Vandy.
We can arrange loans, perhaps, but that is still the player and his family assuming the debt vs full ride from Vandy.
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