So we signed 2 high school offensive linemen...

[Hoover Dawg]

....that will make it into school. Thanks Hevesy?

I mean yeah I guess it's good to sign the S&P guys but seems risky. I hope he plans to load up next class, will need at least 5.

Stars and rankings are great but I look at QB and OL. We continue to excel at one and not the other, throughout our history.

 

[mcdawg22]

Can we start a seperate board where you and fish just pummel the **** out of expired equine?

 

[AlCoDog]

I had no idea you felt this way.

 

[johnson86-1]

Can we start a seperate board where you and fish just pummel the **** out of expired equine?

I think signing day is an ok day to beat on this horse again. I mean hell, we're already in trouble, and not only do we not make up ground, we don't even sign enough for a team that already has an adequate number of OL. Two HS OL a year, assuming every single one redshirts and also pans out, gives us six RS So and above to build a line from each year, so not even enough to fill out a two deep, even assuming we have no injuries and no misevaluations. Even if we add two good JUCO OL each year, that still only gives us ten, so barely a two-deep assuming every single signee works out.

That's crazy bad and we are flirting with disaster every year on the OL.

 

[Uncle Ruckus]

Cooper could still get in, making it 3. 2 JUCOS and 3 HS isn't a bad class.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

It does seem like we keep playing catchup but can't quite catch up, but at least these OL are talented and have other offers, unlike previously.

 

[mcdawg22]

That's crazy bad and we are flirting with disaster every year on the OL.

Speaking of flirting with disaster, a friend of mine that owns a bar told me a great story. A couple of months ago he was planning a southern rock night and he was going to book a Molly Hatchet cover band. Things were looking good then all of the sudden this great Lynard Skynard cover band was available but it would put him over budget. He tried to get the Molly Hatchet band to agree to a lesser amount with free beer but they were too expensive. So he had to go with real Molly Hatchet instead.

 

[fishwater99]

Can we start a separate board where you and fish just pummel the **** out of expired equine?

Hey now.. Leave me out of this...

 

[msstate7]

Hey now.. Leave me out of this...

No top 25 oline recruiting classes yet under Mullen**

 

[engie]

I think signing day is an ok day to beat on this horse again. I mean hell, we're already in trouble, and not only do we not make up ground, we don't even sign enough for a team that already has an adequate number of OL. Two HS OL a year, assuming every single one redshirts and also pans out, gives us six RS So and above to build a line from each year, so not even enough to fill out a two deep, even assuming we have no injuries and no misevaluations. Even if we add two good JUCO OL each year, that still only gives us ten, so barely a two-deep assuming every single signee works out.

That's crazy bad and we are flirting with disaster every year on the OL.

ETA Nvm, I see where you got it now.

Still pretty crazy that you are complaining about a described scenario with 10 upperclassmen OL ready to go in a 2-deep. No one in the country has that consistently.

 

[johnson86-1]

You desperately need to start over and try again on your math.

ETA: Nevermind; saw your edit


I may just need coffee, but the math still looks ok even after trying again. 2 HS oline a year and assuming RS each one gives 2 each in RS So, RS Jr., and RS Sr. Class, so that is 6. Sign 2 JUCO a year and that's 2 Jr.s, 2 Sr.s, so 4 more that are RS So. or older (doesn't matter whether RS or not, they're only going to get two years to actually play if they are typical non-qualifer and not somebody that RS at JUCO or has 3 yrs eligibility b/c they were a qualifier out of high school).

Or are you arguing that we are in good shape with our underclassmen OL and don't need more than 2 eligible HS signees on the OL?

 

[engie]

A theoretical setup where someone is bitching about 10 3rd year plus OL comprising a 2-deep -- is asinine. You show me that scenario in the next couple of years at MSU -- I'll show you at least one more national title contender.

 

[johnson86-1]

ETA Nvm, I see where you got it now.

Still pretty crazy that you are complaining about a described scenario with 10 upperclassmen OL ready to go in a 2-deep. No one in the country has that consistently.

I'm not actually complaining about that scenario, I'm just pointing out that even if everything goes perfectly and we never have an injury and hit 100% on our evaluations of mostly 3 star OL, we still just have a two deep out of RS So and above. Obviously in real life, you're going to have some players good enough to be in the two deep as RS freshmen, and you're going to have a lot of players that don't belong on the two deep as upper classmen or who transfer out before then. Looking at our hit rate on OL, it just seems grossly insufficient to sign the number of HS OL we are signing.

Kudos to Mullen and Co. for plugging holes on the OL with decent or better rated JUCO prospects, but if you keep going that route, you're going to come up snake eyes eventually. With the number of seasons he's had derailed by simply not being able to put a fifth SEC quality OL on the field, you'd think we'd be pushing harder on the numbers of OL HS recruited.

 

[Hoover Dawg]

Exactly. The dude never learns.

 

[engie]

No one has a 2-deep of all RS SO or above on the OL. No one. Like I said -- you give me that -- and we are competing for titles with Key, if not with Fitz.

FIVE OF TEN of Alabama's national title game two-deep were first or second year players on the OL.
FOUR OF TEN of Clemson's national title game 2-deep were first or second year players.

 

[engie]

Exactly. The dude never learns.

Jus goat ovr hre tlkin bt nvR lrnng

 

[Hoover Dawg]

We are going to get Keytaon killed:

2017 seniors: Rankin 4*
2018 seniors: Jenkins 3*, Champion 3* (assume he plays immediately), Calhoun 3*, Williams 3*, Cochran 2*
2019 seniors: Moon 3*, Story 3*, Phillips 3* (assume he redshirts)
2020 seniors: Reese 3*, Parker 3*, Eiland 3*
2021 seniors: Suggs 3*, Richardson 3*, (maybe Cooper if we sign him after JUCO and he redshirts one year)

Theoretically when Thompson is taking over as a true junior in 2019, his line will only have 9 maximum 3rd year players, without attrition. We need at least double that on the roster honestly. We are going to have to go JUCO again if we want those years to be worth a crap at all. Very dangerous. Disappointed in the staff for creating this hole.

 

[Hoover Dawg]

Hush little man

 

[johnson86-1]

A theoretical setup where someone is bitching about 10 3rd year plus OL comprising a 2-deep -- is asinine. You show me that scenario in the next couple of years at MSU -- I'll show you at least one more national title contender.

Got curious so looked back at our previous high school classes. Our hit rate is actually not as bad as I expected. Basically around 50%. Usually 1 out of or 2 out of 3. The problem is that 50% includes a lot of OL that weren't much (or anything) beyond serviceable. And even then, that pretty much requires that we hit one JUCO every other year just to have 5 serviceable and better OL. Which makes sense considering our history. We are pretty much always needing to hit on a JUCO or rely on a second year player to fill a hole, and if we miss and/or have a key injury, we end up with a major hole on our OL.


2011 - Justin Malone, Daniel Knox, Nick Redmond. Basically one worked out. We also signed Rufus Warren, who eventually played LT but I think everyone can agree was not something that "worked out" for us.
2012 - Devon Desper, Cole Carter, Justin Senior. That was a class where two out of three worked out. But I would say they just barely qualify as working out, as they were both pretty marginal at times when they played. (also signed Dylan holley and Charles Siddoway from JUCO).
2013, - jake Thomas, Kent Flowers, Jamaal Clayborn. That was an ok class where one OL worked out, although he was somewhat up and down compared to his potential.
2014, - Elgton Jenkins, Deion Calhoun, and Ronald Cochran. That was a good class where two of the three high school enrollees look like they're going to work out. No clue whether Cochran will play a role going forward. (also signed Jocquell johnson)
2015 - Darryl Williams (major injury issues?), Harrison Moon, Michael Story. Too early to say, although it looks like Story is going to work out and Williams may get derailed by injuries.

 

[msstate7]

We are going to get Keytaon killed:

2017 seniors: Rankin 4*
2018 seniors: Jenkins 3*, Champion 3* (assume he plays immediately), Calhoun 3*, Williams 3*, Cochran 2*
2019 seniors: Moon 3*, Story 3*, Phillips 3* (assume he redshirts)
2020 seniors: Reese 3*, Parker 3*, Eiland 3*
2021 seniors: Suggs 3*, Richardson 3*, (maybe Cooper if we sign him after JUCO and he redshirts one year)

Theoretically when Thompson is taking over as a true junior in 2019, his line will only have 9 maximum 3rd year players, without attrition. We need at least double that on the roster honestly. We are going to have to go JUCO again if we want those years to be worth a crap at all. Very dangerous. Disappointed in the staff for creating this hole.

Will you give us the star breakdown of last year's oline? Here's where they ranked in the sec in actual stats...

Rushing offense -- 5th
Rushing yds/att -- 4th
Sacks allowed -- 2nd
TFL allowed -- 3rd

 

[engie]

Hush little man

Eatadick

 

[Hoover Dawg]

Yeah because Hevesy balls out just like those two. Give it a rest squirt.

 

[engie]

The funny thing is -- there are actually more NFL guys on that OL than any since 2010. But keep counting their starZ goat

 

[Hoover Dawg]

How about where they got dirt-rolled by every team who a pulse in the trenches?

 

[Hoover Dawg]

Talk about subjective science......have you solved the Big Bang yet??

 

[johnson86-1]

No one has a 2-deep of all RS SO or above on the OL. No one. Like I said -- you give me that -- and we are competing for titles with Key, if not with Fitz.

FIVE OF TEN of Alabama's national title game two-deep were first or second year players on the OL.
FOUR OF TEN of Clemson's national title game 2-deep were first or second year players.

No doubt, if you are getting highly rated recruits, that greatly increases your margin for error, as you can get three years or even four years of solid play out of some players. So far, we haven't really had that luxury. We've had some players play three or even four years, but for the most part they are playing because we have a hole to fill and not because they are ready as a RS Fr or RS So.

If our recruiting improved just to where our "hits" consisted of players that are Malone/Jenkins type players as opposed to Desper type players, and Mullen's trajectory at state drastically changes. 2014 showed he can work his offense as long as everybody is solid, even without future NFL stars. Alternatively, he could also change his trajectory by occasionally hitting on some NFL prospects that can give us 3 good years of production, as opposed to one year of filling in a hole and then two solid years.

Obviously all of this is easier said than done and overall Mullen is doing very well. It's just frustrating to sign two HS OL that are likely to get in when we have struggled on the OL the way we have. If both of those HS OL workout, or even just one of them turns out to be a stud, that will be good enough that it will be as good or better than most of his other OL classes.

 

[engie]

I thought it was pretty obvious we had hit at a much higher rate the past couple of classes. Let's break it down then per 247sports.

2011 - Malone, Knox, Redmond, Warren, Trapp combined for zero outside power 5 offers.
2012 - Desper, Carter, Senior, Siddoway, Holley combined for 4 outside Power 5 offers.
2013 - Flowers, Thomas, Clayborn combined for 1 outside Power 5 offer.
2014 - Jenkins, Calhoun, Cochran, Johnson combined for 2 outside Power 5 offers.
2015 - Williams, Moon, Story, Rankin combined for FOURTEEN outside power 5 offers.
2016 - Parker, Eiland, Reese combined for TWENTY EIGHT outside power 5 offers.
2017 - Champion, Suggs, Cooper, Phillips, Richardson combined for TWENTY outside power 5 offers.

Look -- recruiting OL isn't quite where I'd like it to be or any of us would like it to be. Not because of player ratings necessarily but because we miss on too many guys we make priorities. But it's already a helluva lot better than it was -- and a lot of the young guys are showing the makings of monsters. I think it's OK to say that we were a player or two short in the last couple of classes IF we are going to miss evaluations on guys like we did in earlier classes. But, I look from 2014 till today -- and I don't see a single guy I'm ready to call a bust or even call a below average player. One or two has to eventually be lost in the shuffle -- but it hasn't happened yet. If we are hitting on almost all of them -- then our numbers are fine. We probably could have taken a 4* from Memphis any time we wanted this class to win the day -- but apparently we liked our other guys better.

 

[Go Budaw]

I think signing day is an ok day to beat on this horse again. I mean hell, we're already in trouble, and not only do we not make up ground, we don't even sign enough for a team that already has an adequate number of OL. Two HS OL a year, assuming every single one redshirts and also pans out, gives us six RS So and above to build a line from each year, so not even enough to fill out a two deep, even assuming we have no injuries and no misevaluations. Even if we add two good JUCO OL each year, that still only gives us ten, so barely a two-deep assuming every single signee works out.

That's crazy bad and we are flirting with disaster every year on the OL.

I think the minimum number of OL signed per year should be 6. They comprise 5 of the 22 positions on the field (slightly less than 25%) so common logic is they should comprise slightly less than 25% of every signing class on average. Should have a minimum of 20 scholarship OL on the roster every year, leaving room to process between 5-10 guys every 4 years, depending on how many end up redshirting. We aren't close to hitting any of those marks, obviously.

 

[engie]

I think the minimum number of OL signed per year should be 6. They comprise 5 of the 22 positions on the field (slightly less than 25%) so common logic is they should comprise slightly less than 25% of every signing class on average. Should have a minimum of 20 scholarship OL on the roster every year, leaving room to process between 5-10 guys every 4 years, depending on how many end up redshirting. We aren't close to hitting any of those marks, obviously.

This is utter insanity. NFL teams keep 9 OL on their 53 man. 18%. That translates to 14-15 guys on an 85 man. Even factoring development -- you only need about 8 OL ready to go in college. 10 at most.

You go much over 14-16 guys in the pecking order -- they are leaving to get you back to the "playing time/one injury away guys" and the "young guys". At that level, you are wasting schollies on guys just to waste them -- at the expense of the positions that actually need more depth/rotate a bunch.

 

[johnson86-1]

I thought it was pretty obvious we had hit at a much higher rate the past couple of classes

...

Look -- recruiting OL isn't quite where I'd like it to be or any of us would like it to be. Not because of player ratings necessarily but because we miss on too many guys we make priorities. But it's already a helluva lot better than it was -- and a lot of the young guys are showing the makings of monsters. I think it's OK to say that we were a player or two short in the last couple of classes IF we are going to miss evaluations on guys like we did in earlier classes. But, I look from 2014 till today -- and I don't see a single guy I'm ready to call a bust or even call a below average player. One or two has to eventually be lost in the shuffle -- but it hasn't happened yet. If we are hitting on almost all of them -- then our numbers are fine. We probably could have taken a 4* from Memphis any time we wanted this class to win the day -- but apparently we liked our other guys better.

No doubt if we hit on all of them, we are fine. Really, if we just hit well on Champion and Phillips, that would set our OL for the next two years barring injuries (assuming one of Story, Calhoun, and Phillips can play C). And give us some time to fill any holes in the event our younger OL are looking like they won't work out.

At any other position, I would trust that our coaches felt good about where we are. At OL, I am a little more skeptical. But I certainly don't pay enough attention to know the difference between (1) Parker, Eiland, Reese, and (2) Flowers, Thomas, and Clayborne. I thought both classes were decently rated but obviously the power offers indicate that coaches viewed them quite differently coming out of HS. If our recruiting has improved to where we will consistently hit on two our of three, we will be fine going forward and will be able to afford the occasional two signee class.

 

[Hoover Dawg]

I've often thought that would be a good place to innovate. You essentially assure yourself of a decent OL every single year, which is the biggest piece needed for consistency.

 

[tenureplan]

Not to mention that it hamstrings you on kickoffs and punt returns.

 

[Hoover Dawg]

Kick the ball out of the endzone. Punt it away from the returner. We don't need to be giving other teams (in most cases in the SEC, deeper and more talented teams) those extra chances anyway.

 

[tenureplan]

Kick return and punt return? Put a bunch of O-linemen out there?

 

[Hoover Dawg]

Wow, just noticed we have absolutely ZERO rising senior defensive linemen, yet we just added 4 JUCO guys to go along with 3 rising juniors. What in the world do we need 7 juniors for? And if we redshirt a few of those JUCOs, we have 5 rising sophomores! How did the classes get so unbalanced?

Same story with the defensive backs.

Where were these JUCOs last year??

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

Wow, just noticed we have absolutely ZERO rising senior defensive linemen, yet we just added 4 JUCO guys to go along with 3 rising juniors. What in the world do we need 7 juniors for? And if we redshirt a few of those JUCOs, we have 5 rising sophomores! How did the classes get so unbalanced?

Same story with the defensive backs.

Where were these JUCOs last year??

You just digging for **** to ***** about? Holy 17

 

[Hoover Dawg]

No. I want to see us have a competitive team past 2018. Doubling up on JUCOs and signing a cray small high school is concerning to me. But hey, the next two years will be great.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

No. I want to see us have a competitive team past 2018.

its kind of hard to predict how it's gonna like 3 years from now, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

No. I want to see us have a competitive team past 2018. Doubling up on JUCOs and signing a cray small high school is concerning to me. But hey, the next two years will be great.

Well you can guarantee we will sign 3-5 jucos a year (seeing as how the state of MS has the best juco system in the country)

I mean off the top of my head, we will have Gay, Thompson, Odom, Kobe jones, possibly LL, Hill, Suggs, Ellis...I mean 3 years is pretty far down the road in college.

 

[Hoover Dawg]

That's certainly my hope.