The same people love to ignore how much not guarding the point guard affects the entire team.
Starting 5 Talk
- Thread starter BGCATFAN2012
- Start date
Question:is Reeves a defensive liability and why do you say so? Is this based on his last school play?
Yes, those are the numbers from that game. To blame Wheeler is not only biased, it's flat-out wrong. The reason our season fell apart right there is because we couldn't make shots. When your 2-3 guys go 3-19 from the floor, you usually lose. I love those guys, by the way. Grady and TyTy were elite players for much of the season. Before TyTy's injury at Auburn, he was automatic from that mid-range. And earlier in the season, Grady was shooting over 50% from 3. Both of those guys were dealing with injuries and just stopped making open shots.
It is popular on this message board to use Wheeler as the whipping boy for everything that ailed last season's team, but he was not why we lost to St Peter's. He helped keep us in the game, in fact.
Now, I'm not going to ignore some of Wheeler's flaws. Every player has some flaws. Oscar doesn't have many, but even he has some flaws. #1 Wheeler's not a great shooter. Although, he improved his shooting last season and shot better from 3 than ever before. #2 Wheeler's biggest flaw last season showed up in games when the team struggled to make shots and score. He would take too much of the burden on himself, drive in too deep, get himself in a mess, and turn it over. But even with his turnovers, he was still a Cousy finalist. He still had the second most assists in the HISTORY of Kentucky basketball. He still led all major D1 players in assists. That is, his benefits to the team far outweigh his detriments. His positives are greater than his negatives. His quickness and court vision are elite. If he can even make 30% from 3, teams will have to respect him.
Bottom line, despite the naysayers here dogging constantly on Wheeler, you don't sit your Cousy Award finalist and leader in assists (#2 in UK history for assists in a season) for his senior season in favor any freshman, even a guy you all think "might" be better. And he might, I'm not denying that. What you do is you play them side by side. And that is exactly what Calipari will do. When Wheeler needs a breather, Wallace will move over and play point. But you would have to be a complete fool to sit him. That's just a fact. Ask 1000 coaches what they would do with Wheeler this season and they would ALL say "You start him every game" without hesitation. It is ONLY on this board that ANYONE would suggest he should sit for this team to be better.
Last edited:
If that is your stance, then you are just blaming everything on Wheeler for the sake of blaming it on him. Wheeler is not a guy that can win a game by himself, but he can be effective with scorers around him. In the middle of the season, he had that, with TyTy and Grady being in a groove, and Mintz chipping in a bit. We can debate whether injuries caused the downfall at the end of the year or whether it was other stuff (here is a tip from me, I think it was some other stuff that contributed as much as or more than the injuries). Either way, TyTy and Grady being ineffective at the end of the year was the reason for the issues, not Wheeler's play. You can blame stuff on Wheeler all you want, but Grady didn't even hit the rim on his first shot in that game, and it was wide, wide open. That had nothing to do with Wheeler. In fact, a lot of the shots that guys missed were wide open, they just weren't making them. The guy not guarding Wheeler likely clogged the lane, and probably had an effect on guys not being able to get to the rim. Had little effect on the guys not being able to make shots.
The biggest issue in that game was Cal "forgetting" to put Toppin in the game in the second half. He was one of our most effective players. In fact, we actually looked pretty good playing Brooks, Toppin and Oscar together at the end of the year. And I probably would have played Hopkins more in that game just to see if he could give us a lift. I think Cal froze.
Back to the starting line-up convo, it will likely be Wheeler, Wallace, Toppin and Oscar for sure, with either Livingston, Reeves or Collins at the other spot. And honestly, it really doesn't matter who starts, as they can all excel when they are on the court, and the 2 from that group that doesn't start is going to play a lot. Fredrick will likely play a little as well, if he can stay healthy. Not sure anybody else is going to play much outside of spot minutes or at the end of blowouts, and one of those guys will see their minutes reduced as the season goes on and Cal narrows it to an 8 man rotation.
With 2 injured guards who played like **** in that 1 game, pretty much that final month. Yeah, that was Wheeler's fault (eye roll).
I think Wheeler's shooting is worse than his % last year. But when he has offensive threats on the court, he is quite good at what he does. Now when those guys are not playing well, and he tries to do too much, that is when he is not good.
To me Wheeler is another one of those cases where analytics and stats do not tell the whole story.
All his accolades, all the assists, all his numbers don’t mean much to me, because when push comes to shove, for a single elimination tournament, he doesn’t pass the eye test for me.
I hope he proves me wrong, but right now to me nothing about him says “championship level PG.”
I trust what I see with my own eyes over what the stats say.
All his accolades, all the assists, all his numbers don’t mean much to me, because when push comes to shove, for a single elimination tournament, he doesn’t pass the eye test for me.
I hope he proves me wrong, but right now to me nothing about him says “championship level PG.”
I trust what I see with my own eyes over what the stats say.
Recency bias? I mean, there were 10 NBA players on the 2015 roster who battled in practice daily.
He was horrific against St. Peter's. The airball at the FT line with the game on the line, plus the worst entry pass you've ever seen that should have been in Oscar's hands not off his foot or in the 5th row (I can't remember I was so mad) in crunch time .... he has to earn it back. As of now, he's not it.
Agree. And Toppin is almost a lock.
Odds starting (if healthy):
Oscar 100%
Wheeler 99%
Toppin 95%
Wallace 70%
Collins 50%
Reeves 45%
Livingston 35%
Fredrick 5%
Theiro 1%
Ware 0%
UKO 0%
My starting 5 would be
Wallace - PG
Reeves- SG
Livingston -SF
Toppin - PF
Oscar - C
I expect we will see
Wheeler
Wallace
Livingston or Reeves
Toppin
Oscar
Wallace - PG
Reeves- SG
Livingston -SF
Toppin - PF
Oscar - C
I expect we will see
Wheeler
Wallace
Livingston or Reeves
Toppin
Oscar
Tshiebwe is a lock. Wallace is pretty much a lock, IMHO. Toppin and Wheeler are pretty close to locks.
The fifth starter is the wild card. I think Livingston gets the nod, but I could see Cal go big with Collins.
He has pretty much said so through the offseason. He talked about having multiple shot blockers and how it turns defense into offense. Cal wants to score in transition and is trying to find any way he can to speed up the game and avoid a halfcourt game.
That is a smart play, except imposing your will on the other team is not easy to do, especially when you want to run and they want to slow it down. He has to have a contingency plan. He needs to be smart enough to stick in some shooters when the game gets bogged down in a low possession “rock fight.” I’m hoping that is why he has Fredrick and Reeves on the team.
If he plays it right, I don’t care if he starts Collins with Toppin and Tshiebwe. That’s fine as long as he doesn’t stick with that lineup when it’s obviously not working.
Hopefully he uses the top 8 guys based on situations. Tshiebwe, Toppin, Wheeler, Wallace, Collins, Livingston, Fredrick, and Reeves all need to play a significant role (and significant minutes) on this team. Collins, Livingston, and Reeves all need to be playing lots of minutes regardless of which one starts. Fredrick probably needs to be on limited minutes based on his injury history. Cal needs to be selective with when and how long he plays him. Save him for the tourney, if possible.
The fifth starter is the wild card. I think Livingston gets the nod, but I could see Cal go big with Collins.
He has pretty much said so through the offseason. He talked about having multiple shot blockers and how it turns defense into offense. Cal wants to score in transition and is trying to find any way he can to speed up the game and avoid a halfcourt game.
That is a smart play, except imposing your will on the other team is not easy to do, especially when you want to run and they want to slow it down. He has to have a contingency plan. He needs to be smart enough to stick in some shooters when the game gets bogged down in a low possession “rock fight.” I’m hoping that is why he has Fredrick and Reeves on the team.
If he plays it right, I don’t care if he starts Collins with Toppin and Tshiebwe. That’s fine as long as he doesn’t stick with that lineup when it’s obviously not working.
Hopefully he uses the top 8 guys based on situations. Tshiebwe, Toppin, Wheeler, Wallace, Collins, Livingston, Fredrick, and Reeves all need to play a significant role (and significant minutes) on this team. Collins, Livingston, and Reeves all need to be playing lots of minutes regardless of which one starts. Fredrick probably needs to be on limited minutes based on his injury history. Cal needs to be selective with when and how long he plays him. Save him for the tourney, if possible.
Literally every picture either at half court or in the paint. Thanks for helping prove my point. Kenny Smith’s exact words after a very ugly first half: “well, you can’t win when you’re playing 4 against 5 on the offensive end. And Kentucky is doing that right now. You can’t win when the other team doesn’t guard your point guard, plain and simple.”They didn't? Sure looks like he is being guarded by them from the pics below:
We know how the rest played out.
If you cannot understand how completely sagging off of the guy who has the ball in his hands the most would hurt the entire offense/other players just as much (I’d argue more), then we’re done debating.
And yet Wheeler was the 2nd leading scorer. He shot 50% from the field, and 50% from 3. Only he and Oscar reached double figures.
The truth is that Kentucky could have won in regulation if just one more thing had gone their way. One less missed open jumper. One more rebound. One less turnover. One more made free throw. One more defensive stop. One more loose ball to come up with.
For the season, UK held its opponent to 31% from 3. St. Peters shot 53%. Is that on Wheeler?
For the season, St. Peter's shot 71% from the line. Against UK, they went 18/21, 86%. Is that on Wheeler?
For the season, Doug Edert averaged 9.5 PPG. Against UK, he had 20. Is that on Wheeler?
We can go on and on with this. The fact is, St. Peters came into the game loose and relaxed knowing they had nothing to lose, while UK came in tight. And St. Peters managed to stay close long enough to gain confidence and gain some momentum, which carried them to the win. And then they carried that confidence into 2 more games that they won.
It was just one of those games where nothing went our way. Anyone who's been involved in sports has experienced this in the past, either playing themselves or watching. Shite happens. Same thing happened to UK in the final four loss to Georgetown in the 2nd half. UK couldn't buy a bucket to save their lives. Scored a grand total of 11 points in the second half.
Wheeler didn't have a great game, but neither did TyTy, or Grady, or Brooks, or Mintz. Basketball is a team game. You win as a team, and you lose as a team.
And that last phrase is the key in this instance- Wheeler wasn't great in the game, especially with some of his turnovers. But he made plays in the game for others, and he also scored. The guys around him, namely TyTy, Grady, Brooks, and Mintz, just weren't making shots. So, how can losing that game be blamed on Wheeler? At the very least, it was the fault of multiple players. But the ONLY thing some here remember is what Wheeler did or didn't do. He shot 4-8 from the field and 1-2 from 3 and had 5 assists. So, he did something well. What did Grady do? 1-9 from the field. Yeah, I guess it's all Wheeler's fault. Haha! What a joke!
"Except the part where St Peters didn’t even guard him."
So now they just didn't guard him at the 3? My how the goalposts change when facts are provided.
The person you're debating doesn't know an ounce of basketball. He's a ball watcher.
Please explain to us, since you're obviously much more intelligent and knowledgable than the rest of us.
One could argue that if defenders are sagging off Wheeler, it becomes that much easier for him to pass to the open man. Those passes are a lot harder when a defender is in your jock.
But if those open men can't hit shots, well, it's not easy to win.
If you don't understand how guys were still getting open shots and missing them, then I guess we are in the same boat. You row and I'll steer, deal??
Grady wide open at the very beginning of the game, didn't even draw iron. Like didn't even graze the rim. You may not like Wheeler, and quite honestly, I don't care for a PG that can't shoot either, but he wasn't the reason we lost. We lost cause quite frankly, we were scared. How does a 45% 3 point shooter not even graze the rim on a wide open look? Since he lit Alabama up in Rupp, he finished the season shooting 6-29 from 3. Washington actually wasn't much better down the stretch. The truth is, we were looking like the best team in the country when those guys were shooting it at a high clip, even with hands in their face. Whether injuries started piling up, or whether those guys just came back down to earth off the high they were on, we weren't the same team once those guys started not making outside shots. That was the biggest difference between we all thought was final four bound to the one we watched pee down their leg against St Peters.
So St. Peter’s sagged off Wheeler and he shot better than the rest of the guys. I wonder why?
Basketball Defense 101 class teaches on Day One that if you have a weak offensive player you let him shoot and concentrate on shutting down the true offensive threats.
I don’t remember for sure, but I figure most of Wheeler’s shot attempts were either wide open, right at the rim or both.
Been watching/playing/coaching basketball off and on for about 40 years, I don’t claim to be an expert, but I know what I know. And I know that a 5’8 PG that struggles to shoot from the 3-point line is something that well coached teams can and will exploit.
Against a tourney team in a win or go home situation, it will likely bite us in the butt again. Hope I’m wrong. I will gladly eat crow if I am.
OT, Wheeler, Toppin, Wallace.
Then ? Collins, Livingstone, Reeves?
I have no idea how well any of them play college defense, but they are all impressive players on offense. The way Calipari praised Fredrick for his play in the Bahamas, I wouldn't be floored if Fredrick was the choice.
We have, to use an old phrase, an embarrassment of riches. I don't have a clue how to maximize their production.
Then ? Collins, Livingstone, Reeves?
I have no idea how well any of them play college defense, but they are all impressive players on offense. The way Calipari praised Fredrick for his play in the Bahamas, I wouldn't be floored if Fredrick was the choice.
We have, to use an old phrase, an embarrassment of riches. I don't have a clue how to maximize their production.
Ummm maybe you didn’t see how terrible our other guards were. Wheeler was actually the best one. He actually made half his 3s. Yes he turned it over 6 times. He didn’t exactly have anyone to help him besides Oscar. He also had 7 assists .
Wheeler is a star
Wheeler is a star
Exactly. Not sure why people are blaming Wheeler for that. He was the only guard who was worth a damn
One of the depressing discoveries of modern psychology is that once people become invested in one version of events, they cannot change their mind. In fact, evidence contrary to their invested version of events increases their belief in their version. What constitutes investment isn't fixed, but people at some point sort of become machines.
Does anyone really need examples of this?
Took the game of their life and UK playing collectively terrible to win. If UK got the st Peter's that UNC, murray state or Purdue did, theu win by 15 to 20. One of the most impressive things about st Peter's run to the elite 8 is they didn't even play well against murray or Purdue and still won.
Wheeler was left open at the 3-point line. He only took two 3-pointers. There’s a reason for both.
If you are a PG and teams give you the 3, but you don’t have the confidence to take it (or your coach tells you not to take it), that is a not a good thing.
Now, I won’t blame the loss completely on Wheeler, but to act like we lost that game despite some heroic effort by Wheeler is just silly.
Give St. Peter’s some credit. They scouted us and had the game plan and executed it. Sagging off Wheeler and daring him to shoot was part of the plan. Kudos to them.
Yes, examples abound.
The real question for me is whether or not some here will even be able to be happy for Wheeler or the team if he has a successful senior campaign, which is highly likely. I have a feeling any wins will be in spite of Wheeler and margins would only be greater if Cal would stop being an idiot and start Wallace.
Or if and when it becomes crystal clear (which is already the case for me) that the offense just runs better with Wheeler at the point, will they be able to see it or admit it? I'm gonna say there is a group here who is so vested in his failure that they won't be able to enjoy UK wins if he plays a prominent role. I guess we'll see.
Get ready, though, folks. Wheeler is your starting point guard. Try to enjoy the wins if you can and remember it's not about you being right on a message board. It's about UK wins. Stiff upper lip and all, and give us a smile from time to time if you can.
They didn't? Sure looks like he is being guarded by them from the pics below:
First picture: defender with his feet inside the free throw line
second pic. looks to be mid court. the big guy on the right probably just jogging back, #15 about 7-8 feet off.
3rd pic: at the rim. wheeler leaving his feet to make a pass(usually a no no and one he was prone to)
4th pic: looks like either a scramble for a loose ball or wheeler turning it over
5th pic: at the rim
They played off of him quite a bit. A lot of teams did. I mean that’s the book on how to play against a guy like wheeler.
He’s a good player. I love his ability to break down defenses once he does get in the lane. But he’s gotta keep improving his jumper. Point guards that can’t make the other team respect their jumper don’t win championships.
I don't think it was Wheelers shooting that did us in. Shaheen was smart enough to read google and see that Cal told his players to shoot if they're open, or they're coming out… . all of his guys.
So, Shaheen had his team sag off of Wheeler and Brooks. They played sticker bush type defense on everyone else and in an NCAAT game, where every possession is extremely important, you can't have 1 guy refuse to take open shots because he knows he can’t hit (Wheeler) and you can't have another guy taking the dumbest shots in basketball (Brooks: one step inside the 3 point line). Every one of Brooks' cinder blocks, was the first pass in SP's fast break.
Wheeler didn’t miss a lot of shots, but that's because he refused to take them and with SP sagging off him, he had no passing and driving lanes and that’s the problem. That’s where Wheeler costs us. He can’t be in the game when it’s a low possession style game and the defense is sagging. Can't do it.
Our guys choked at the ft line too and Grady did his normal thing, which was stand in the corner and hope the ball finds him.
It was a total system failure from top to bottom, but having a very short pg that can’t hit shots from the outside, is not a recipe for success in the NCAAT.
Last edited:
See, that's just false. When a defense sags, they take away your passing lane and are then able to use those sagging defenders to double on anyone else cutting through the lane.
You guys are talking about ulisisnotmyman being a ball watcher, but he's right, you guys are wrong.
Yeah, wheeler went 4-8 from the field, but he was open all game. He refused to shoot a ton of open shots and he wasted the entire shot clock trying to find an open man on way too many possessions.
No, it's not all on Wheeler, but he's short, can't beat his man off the dribble in a half court set (especially a sagging defender) and he's not a good shooter from the outside.
Lastly, when you're the pg, you are the guy that has to create, you are the guy that is the qb of the offense, so you are going to get the bulk of the blame.
Wheeler did what he could, but he's limited and those limitations contributed to the losses at the end of the season.
All that from a guy that is a Wheeler fan. I like the kid, but I'm not going to ignore his limitations.
We actually scored enough that we should have won tbh. But i still wasn’t in love with our offense that game. Especially in the overtime and end of regulation.
Our defense was absolutely deplorable however. St. peter’s was a bad offensive team going into that game. They shot 50 percent from the field and 52% from 3 against us.
Defensively we were very bad for the last month plus of the season. Somewhere in the 200’s in adjusted defensive efficiency during that time.
That’s how 2 seeds get upset. It’s almost always because of a poor defensive effort. In the 10 wins by 15 seeds in the first round they’re averaging 76 points per game.
Latest
-
01
KSR Basketball
KSR's top takeaways from Big Blue Madness 2026
-
02
KSR Basketball
WATCH: KSR Rapidly Reacts to everything we saw at Big Blue Madness
-
03
KSR Volleyball
Brooklyn DeLeye's double-double leads No. 3 Kentucky VB to four-set win over Auburn
-
04
KSR Basketball
LIVE BLOG: Big Blue Madness
-
05
KSR Football
SEC Availability Report: DJ Miller officially OUT vs. South Carolina