Do you think NCAAB refs rig games?
- Thread starter Rupp'sRunt
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Without a doubt. The idea that Tim Donaghy is the only one to ever do it is nonsense.
Basketball is by far, the most corrupt sport and easily controlled game. It’s really the only sport where you can just let the other team get points by blowing your whistle, where you can get the other team’s best players out of the game with two quick fouls.
I can tell you a game of ours where I absolutely believe the refs were focused on a gambling issue. It was the 2014-2015 season, and we were playing Texas. We had a 10 point lead with the ball with two seconds left and the refs called a ridiculous foul call in our backcourt to let us shoot two more free throws to cover the spread.
Basketball is by far, the most corrupt sport and easily controlled game. It’s really the only sport where you can just let the other team get points by blowing your whistle, where you can get the other team’s best players out of the game with two quick fouls.
I can tell you a game of ours where I absolutely believe the refs were focused on a gambling issue. It was the 2014-2015 season, and we were playing Texas. We had a 10 point lead with the ball with two seconds left and the refs called a ridiculous foul call in our backcourt to let us shoot two more free throws to cover the spread.
Yep. The team hit the exact point differential needed in two of those games. It has to be common and so easy to disguise.
It’s a sport that has had these scandals going back to at least the 1950s. CCNY. Us.
Watch this video of Jamie Luckie giving a seminar on “The Craft of Officiating” and read the analysis: https://kentucky.forums.rivals.com/threads/jamie-luckie-and-kentucky.263353/page-2#post-6804184
I think it’s possible for a ref to officiate in such a way that they affect the outcome. A “little” missed call or no-call here or there can make a huge difference when you only need to win by one point. UK’s Final Games of the Tournament in 2005, 2011, 2015, 2017 (Higgins), 2010 & 2018 (Luckie) and 2019 are examples.
I think it’s possible for a ref to officiate in such a way that they affect the outcome. A “little” missed call or no-call here or there can make a huge difference when you only need to win by one point. UK’s Final Games of the Tournament in 2005, 2011, 2015, 2017 (Higgins), 2010 & 2018 (Luckie) and 2019 are examples.
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I voted maybe only because of the use of the term "rig". I absolutely believe that a faction of the refs are betting games and therefore influencing the spread, if not determining the winner/loser, outright.
As a whole, no, refs don’t rig games. That’s ludicrous. It’s worse. They are incompetent as a group. Inconsistency is my biggest gripe.
Why ludicrous? Has it been your experience that the world is populated only with upright, honest people who would never do anything shady for profit?
How can anyone have watched any Duke or North Carolina or Kansas game in the last 30 years and ask this question? Of course they are.
I ref pee wee games at the rec. center. Dads are constantly trying to slip me 5 bucks to call fouls on the other team.
Let me lay this out in simple terms. Be patient, I’ll keep this short as possible.
Casinos have one or more built in “house advantages” for every single one of their games, but they just fly by the seat of their pants in sports? That’s hysterical!
So imagine you are your own casino, and let’s say (for sake of keeping it simple) you have $1 Billion budgeted for sports gambling. The only advantage you have, if you want to even call it an advantage, is computer modeling, statisticians, trends, and possibly home field advantage to work with. Everything else is organic and out of your control.
Do you realize you’d be bankrupt so fast, it wouldn’t be worth the trouble to be invested in that! Yet, the betting services profit every single year! How? They have 2 built in “house advantages” that most people never consider.
1. The casinos control the key people who enforce the “rules” of any particular sport that they allow betting against. That’s your referees, umpires, officials etc etc.
2. They will also have the key “decision makers” in on the take. That’s your coaches, quarterbacks, point guards, pitchers, goalies etc etc.
I know no one wants to think the sports they love are rigged, but that’s the cold hard truth. And if you are being completely honest with yourself, you know the countless times you have watched a game, and witnessed one or more examples I listed above do something so *** backwards, you thought, “what the hell are they thinking!”, well now you know!
It’s a tight nit fraternity where a lot of people are making a lot of money, and it will never be any different, until people realize what’s going on, and stop betting on sports.
E.G. Look no further than the AFC Championship game a few days ago. 90% of the money was on KC, and Mahomes and KC were poised to blow the doors off of the Bengals, and all the sudden Mahomes forget how to be a quarterback in the second half? Never had an interception in the playoffs, but had 3 that day? Lol, keep telling yourself it’s all organic
Casinos have one or more built in “house advantages” for every single one of their games, but they just fly by the seat of their pants in sports? That’s hysterical!
So imagine you are your own casino, and let’s say (for sake of keeping it simple) you have $1 Billion budgeted for sports gambling. The only advantage you have, if you want to even call it an advantage, is computer modeling, statisticians, trends, and possibly home field advantage to work with. Everything else is organic and out of your control.
Do you realize you’d be bankrupt so fast, it wouldn’t be worth the trouble to be invested in that! Yet, the betting services profit every single year! How? They have 2 built in “house advantages” that most people never consider.
1. The casinos control the key people who enforce the “rules” of any particular sport that they allow betting against. That’s your referees, umpires, officials etc etc.
2. They will also have the key “decision makers” in on the take. That’s your coaches, quarterbacks, point guards, pitchers, goalies etc etc.
I know no one wants to think the sports they love are rigged, but that’s the cold hard truth. And if you are being completely honest with yourself, you know the countless times you have watched a game, and witnessed one or more examples I listed above do something so *** backwards, you thought, “what the hell are they thinking!”, well now you know!
It’s a tight nit fraternity where a lot of people are making a lot of money, and it will never be any different, until people realize what’s going on, and stop betting on sports.
E.G. Look no further than the AFC Championship game a few days ago. 90% of the money was on KC, and Mahomes and KC were poised to blow the doors off of the Bengals, and all the sudden Mahomes forget how to be a quarterback in the second half? Never had an interception in the playoffs, but had 3 that day? Lol, keep telling yourself it’s all organic
Excellent! This guy sees the BS that is clearly going on! $$$ controls most sporting event outcomes.
I said as a whole. There is nothing systemic as it relates to corruption in officiating. Isolated cases, perhaps but it is rare. Have to read all the words.
LOL you just stated a complete falsehood. Tim Donaghy went to PRISON. And David Stern came out and said that he was in fact the ONLY ONE who committed those crimes. As if he knew that for a fact? There's NO WAY he knew that.
So you think Mahomes threw the AFC championship game? LOL. If that’s the case, then why did he play so well in the first half? Why jump out to the 21 point lead? Why would he intentionally make the difference between his first and second half performance so blatantly obvious?Look no further than the AFC Championship game a few days ago. 90% of the money was on KC, and Mahomes and KC were poised to blow the doors off of the Bengals, and all the sudden Mahomes forget how to be a quarterback in the second half? Never had an interception in the playoffs, but had 3 that day? Lol, keep telling yourself it’s all organic
That’s not the way point shaving players do it. Instead, they do it in more subtle ways that make it hard for fans to detect (watch that Netflix documentary where Hedake Smith explains how he did this). In fact, strangely enough, many of the games where shaving has been caught were cases where the fans thought the guy was playing hard and well at the time (see Joe Jackson’s .375 batting average in the infamous 1919 World Series). They don’t do it in blatantly obvious “hammer over the head” ways.
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An example of a “key decision” maker doing what I described in my previous post, with regards to UK, would be Ashton Hagans. I know that dude was point shaving in some games, and I mentioned it at the time.
I personally believe it was so obvious, it was one of the reasons Cal took him out at the end of that season. Remember that IG post where he was flaunting that cash? Lol
I personally believe it was so obvious, it was one of the reasons Cal took him out at the end of that season. Remember that IG post where he was flaunting that cash? Lol
I don’t usually give much thought to the refs even though there are lot of bad calls. However, the UK UNC game in the Elite 8 was an absolute travesty with Higgins. There is no possible way his actions weren’t deliberate during that game against UK. The only positive is he will never ref another UK game the rest of his life.
Lol! So you think the betting services put up all that money and rely on the outcomes 100% organically?
It’s beyond absurd to even consider that, unless you exist exclusively in a cartoon reality!
Are you wholly unable to comprehend what you read?
My post never suggested any such thing …nor even addressed that issue. In fact, it acknowledged that point shaving has occurred, and cited examples. Simply because I scoffed at your silly Mahomes accusation doesn’t mean I’m denying everything.
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As a sports gambler going on 25 years, anyone who doesn’t think refs have a piece of the action in every sport is simply naive.
I agree 100% with the bias area. These guys are human beings. I am sure there are coaches they hate or like, fans they hate or like, etc. There is no way that your bias can't get in the way of how you call a game.
I was thinking more of this on our last game with Kansas, in any normal circumstance we get a terrible whistle. But it seemed like they just did not interupt the last game mutch at all knowing KY would win. Perfect storm, Kansas does not lose much at home, KY has been struggling with ranked teams on the road, large money on Kansas either giving the points or money line (me) and big money changes hands.
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My thoughts exactly. If it truly was widespread and happening all the time there would be no way to keep it quiet, IMO. But yes, no question it has occurred, and I'm sure it still does, just not to the extent some may think.
I suspect a few people here think the Kentucky Derby Great Steamboat race is legit.
Ky HS state sweet 16, years ago.
1959 ---Covington Grant(Tom Thacker) vs Olive Hill. Thacker had fouls early and zebra kept olive hill in the game with free throws--final, olive hill 85--Cov Grant 84--total THEFT and the gamblers all knew it as it transpired.
1961---Lex Dunbar(Austin Dumas) vs breathitt co. zebras did everyting to STEAL the game for Breathitt Co--final score Lex Dunbar 55--breathitt co 54. zebras did all they could, calling fouls all over the place and breathitt co was ahead(due to free throws) by 1 with 6 seconds on the clock. Dumas took the inbound pass, went to half court and hit a running one hander as time ran out!! zebras failed, hard as they tried!! $$$ was the issue.
Many more such games in the sweet 16--and certain zebras were known to be crooked and on the take.
I attended both games described.
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1959 ---Covington Grant(Tom Thacker) vs Olive Hill. Thacker had fouls early and zebra kept olive hill in the game with free throws--final, olive hill 85--Cov Grant 84--total THEFT and the gamblers all knew it as it transpired.
1961---Lex Dunbar(Austin Dumas) vs breathitt co. zebras did everyting to STEAL the game for Breathitt Co--final score Lex Dunbar 55--breathitt co 54. zebras did all they could, calling fouls all over the place and breathitt co was ahead(due to free throws) by 1 with 6 seconds on the clock. Dumas took the inbound pass, went to half court and hit a running one hander as time ran out!! zebras failed, hard as they tried!! $$$ was the issue.
Many more such games in the sweet 16--and certain zebras were known to be crooked and on the take.
I attended both games described.
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Lol. No I didn’t. I said 99.9% of the games are not fixed and I DID SAY it happens just like horse racing. There are some bad people and I’m sure ‘some’ referees are crooked. It’s just not rampant like people say it is. I’ve been a referee in my past and never cheated. But fans from both teams always thought their team got screwed by the refs.
John Higgins has officiated six NCAA tournament games involving UK and they have lost five of them. He definitely made the difference in the UK-UNC 2017 regionals. The Tar Heels don’t win that game without John’s help. I don’t think it was rigged. It’s just for some reason he has a bias against either Kentucky or Calipari.
He also called UK for a few fouls vs UConn in one of the final four losses when a Huskie player simply flopped sideways to make it look like he was pushed. One of the calls was on an inbound play on the baseline and it was so obvious that the guy just jumped sideways and fell down and Higgins called a pushing foul. The replay clearly showed otherwise, and was so obvious that one of our member on this site used it as part of his profile to show how bad it was. That would have been bad enough in the Huskie game but he called a second flop almost identical and by the same player. That shows me a ref that has taken sides during a game and is looking for whatever he can conjure up as a reason to call a foul or other judgement calls. There’s no doubt Higgins is anti-UK. And just a few calls of that nature is huge in games between two teams that are fairly equal in talent and are going to be close. It doesn’t take much to swing it one way or the other.
He also called UK for a few fouls vs UConn in one of the final four losses when a Huskie player simply flopped sideways to make it look like he was pushed. One of the calls was on an inbound play on the baseline and it was so obvious that the guy just jumped sideways and fell down and Higgins called a pushing foul. The replay clearly showed otherwise, and was so obvious that one of our member on this site used it as part of his profile to show how bad it was. That would have been bad enough in the Huskie game but he called a second flop almost identical and by the same player. That shows me a ref that has taken sides during a game and is looking for whatever he can conjure up as a reason to call a foul or other judgement calls. There’s no doubt Higgins is anti-UK. And just a few calls of that nature is huge in games between two teams that are fairly equal in talent and are going to be close. It doesn’t take much to swing it one way or the other.
Nah.
Late comebacks happen because basketball is a game of runs, because it’s easier for a losing team to maintain adrenaline flow, and, to a certain extent, just because stuff happens and it would actually be statistically weird if there weren’t at least SOME late comebacks even without those first two factors.
The three factors I listed so far are all real, common, above-board causes for late comeback victories. When you expand that cohort to include late comebacks “to cover spreads,” then you’re automatically bringing in every game in which a coach with a big lead pulled out his starters, or even just one or two stars, to save them from injury, keep them fresh for a Thursday::Saturday turnaround, etc. etc. None of that has anything to do with refs and none of that should need explaining. But it’s easy to get people stirred up on scant and misleading evidence. Salem Witch Trials, anyone?
There are certainly exceptions but most fouls disparities have to do with stark differences in talent or physical traits. If you can’t move your feet fast enough / jump high enough / reach far enough / weigh enough to do what you want to do or keep the other guy from doing what he wants to do, there’s a decent chance you’ll foul him trying. Style of play goes into it too. A team that focuses on driving or post offense will both foul and be fouled on their possessions more than a team that prefers to hang back and jack up threes. Not to mention that most coaches to some extent but many coaches to an extreme extent teach their kids to straddle the line of what’s allowable, figuring the extra fouls incurred will be worth the extra points gained or denied. Some teams get more fouls on them, in other words, because they are trying to foul more. 40 minimum of hacking hell being obviously the prime example.
Given all that, and the fact that human efficiency is generally pretty low and reffing isn’t even a full-time job, I don’t see any real evidence of collusion. Some refs are better than others. All refs are a little bonehead sometimes and SEC refs are a little worse than others. Some guys are particularly inept and all of them are subject to unconscious bias.
I definitely think a few individuals call games according to conscious biases. Whether against teams or against coaches. Higgins and Pat Adams are not people I’d trust my kids with. But I don’t see any evidence of collusion against teams. And the collusion for Duke (which I definitely seem to see) seems to be more about refs brainwashed by ESPN’s constant K worship than about them trading calls for money.
In that sense things seem to have actually improved. There were things that went down in the 90s where if you came to me right now and told me they’d released evidence of some big Clougherty-Rutledge-Hess extensive jobbing-for-pay scandal I wouldn’t even blink. But that was then.
Late comebacks happen because basketball is a game of runs, because it’s easier for a losing team to maintain adrenaline flow, and, to a certain extent, just because stuff happens and it would actually be statistically weird if there weren’t at least SOME late comebacks even without those first two factors.
The three factors I listed so far are all real, common, above-board causes for late comeback victories. When you expand that cohort to include late comebacks “to cover spreads,” then you’re automatically bringing in every game in which a coach with a big lead pulled out his starters, or even just one or two stars, to save them from injury, keep them fresh for a Thursday::Saturday turnaround, etc. etc. None of that has anything to do with refs and none of that should need explaining. But it’s easy to get people stirred up on scant and misleading evidence. Salem Witch Trials, anyone?
There are certainly exceptions but most fouls disparities have to do with stark differences in talent or physical traits. If you can’t move your feet fast enough / jump high enough / reach far enough / weigh enough to do what you want to do or keep the other guy from doing what he wants to do, there’s a decent chance you’ll foul him trying. Style of play goes into it too. A team that focuses on driving or post offense will both foul and be fouled on their possessions more than a team that prefers to hang back and jack up threes. Not to mention that most coaches to some extent but many coaches to an extreme extent teach their kids to straddle the line of what’s allowable, figuring the extra fouls incurred will be worth the extra points gained or denied. Some teams get more fouls on them, in other words, because they are trying to foul more. 40 minimum of hacking hell being obviously the prime example.
Given all that, and the fact that human efficiency is generally pretty low and reffing isn’t even a full-time job, I don’t see any real evidence of collusion. Some refs are better than others. All refs are a little bonehead sometimes and SEC refs are a little worse than others. Some guys are particularly inept and all of them are subject to unconscious bias.
I definitely think a few individuals call games according to conscious biases. Whether against teams or against coaches. Higgins and Pat Adams are not people I’d trust my kids with. But I don’t see any evidence of collusion against teams. And the collusion for Duke (which I definitely seem to see) seems to be more about refs brainwashed by ESPN’s constant K worship than about them trading calls for money.
In that sense things seem to have actually improved. There were things that went down in the 90s where if you came to me right now and told me they’d released evidence of some big Clougherty-Rutledge-Hess extensive jobbing-for-pay scandal I wouldn’t even blink. But that was then.
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zebras CHEAT. Why wouldn't they, with such an easy opportunity to impact a final score?
High school games are easier to manipulate than college--no TV--smaller crowds--less oversight--no replay.
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High school games are easier to manipulate than college--no TV--smaller crowds--less oversight--no replay.
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Um, it absolutely was rigged - by Higgins. Meaning, he threw the outcome against UK. It wasn't a massive NCAA conspiracy to cheat UK, but it was Higgins. Probably had money on it ... so easy to bet through other people to shield yourself from liability.
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