LOCKED - Since PC has taken over

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

I'm over 50 and I think the flag should not be flown over government buildings and should be changed. Leave it over confederate memorials and leave them alone. If you want to fly one in your yard, do it.

I lived in Mississippi for 40 years and never bought a Rebel flag or felt the need to have one. Confederate memorials should stand to remind us of how people can make terrible mistakes and create a great loss of life and almost ruin a land trying to support something that was wrong. I don't find the lives lost and ruin of the Civil War glorious at all.

If we take away all the reminders of past mistakes, we stand a good chance of repeating them again in the future.

 

[Bulldogg31]

Well said BleedMaroon and I agree on all points.

I was asking because among my family and friends there is a clear generational divide on the flag issue.

In a generation or two the whole debate will likely look like foolishness.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

I agree

I'm a descendant of Union soldiers, ie, the Winners, and I'm going to take the same attitude that my ancestors did towards their defeated foes. They had the utmost respect for the men they fought, and saw no problem with the Confederate flag being flown over Cemeteries and memorials.

 

[FirstPoetsThenSunDoggy]

Nowhere did I say the flag only represents racial conflict, but to pretend people shouldn't be offended by it because "that's not what it stood for" is stupid, too. Look, there is a deep divide over it and my thoughts will not do anything to change yours. But the indisputable fact is there is a deep divide over it that's been around much longer than a few weeks ago when that asshat who thought it was his divine duty to shoot up a church and waved that flag as he did so. That's the same attitude klansmen used in the sixties to terrorize African American citizens and kill people senselessly, all while making a mockery of the justice system.

I'll even offer an example... in the 1960's, there were 3 men shot and killed in Neshoba county by the klan. The man who pulled the trigger was on trial and his brother and other klansmen were photographed outside the meridian federal courthouse waving the stars and bars in support of the Klansmen on trial. The man who pulled the trigger, along with everyone else involved (including a sheriff) was aquitted of murder. There are many other pictures showing the same thing. Supporters of the klan and klansmen themselves waving the flag as killers were systematically acquitted by a justice system that wanted nothing less than white supremacy.

Is that the only thing the flag stands for? No, it's not. But let's quit pretending people shouldn't be highly offended by it or it's just some kind of "PC stunt."

Bravo. It didn't just start. It's been hurting us for a long time. I'm thankful for the focus that gives us another chance to do what should have been done many moons ago.

As far as what it should look like, that's a separate issue from getting the offensive part of it removed. Putting those issues together makes it less likely we'll finally stop officially saying screw you to 40 percent of our citizens.

 

[PhredPhantom]

...

It is part of our history and we should remember that, we should not fly it in the face of those whose family were salves under it.

...

Confederate Flag flew over slaves for less than 10 years.
U. S. Flag flew over slaves for more than 100 years.
You want to get rid of the U. S. flag, too? Don't be a hypocrite.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

That's interesting. Most of the staunch flag defenders among my friends are those who are much younger than me.

I have pretty much kept quiet in this debate in public forums except here. I think it is a ridiculous battle on both sides. The kind of hate that creates people as in the South Carolina killings is not limited to a flag, but usually instilled by parents and peers, combined with a twisted personality or mental disorder.

Placing the blame for something like what happened in South Carolina on the perpetrator's love of hate symbols is just way too easy. Our society likes to take the easy way out when trying to place blame on something like this instead of examining what created a monster. I am sure the warning signs were there.

 

[FirstPoetsThenSunDoggy]

Confederate Flag flew over slaves for less than 10 years.
U. S. Flag flew over slaves for more than 100 years.
You want to get rid of the U. S. flag, too? Don't be a hypocrite.

This is not about history. This is about human beings trying to do better. You want to join in or you want to blather on about every wrong that's ever been committed under any flag anywhere?

 

[BeardoMSU]

They are digging up remains of Nathan Bedford Forrest in Memphis at a park just because some folks have their panties in a bunch over it being there.

Panties in a bunch? You do know who this man was, yes? WTF....

When ever I see statues and monuments to this man, and at the same time hear the "it's heritage, not hate" drivel from that group, I'm flabbergasted by the irony. There are plenty of men to honorably remember from both sides of the Civil War, but this douche is not one of them. I'd be OK if they threw his bones in the ocean.

I haven't been back since Katrina, but prior, the museum at Beauvoir had an entire room donated to him, complete with a majestic statue of him riding his horse in the room's center....nothing about the Battle of Fort Pillow or the KKK, though.....I wonder why that is.

 

[FirstPoetsThenSunDoggy]

I'm over 50 and I think the flag should not be flown over government buildings and should be changed. Leave it over confederate memorials and leave them alone. If you want to fly one in your yard, do it.

I lived in Mississippi for 40 years and never bought a Rebel flag or felt the need to have one. Confederate memorials should stand to remind us of how people can make terrible mistakes and create a great loss of life and almost ruin a land trying to support something that was wrong. I don't find the lives lost and ruin of the Civil War glorious at all.

If we take away all the reminders of past mistakes, we stand a good chance of repeating them again in the future.

Your signature reminds me of some past mistakes. But they're real good memories.

 

[patdog]

IBMD, I'm over 50 and I agree with your post 100%.

 

[esplanade91]

It's not a PC issue.

I'm in advertising and I have clients I have to protect all the time because of news and current debates. If I had a soft drink or fast food chain and we bought TV time during the evening news... And 20/20 or 60 Minutes did a show on obesity/diabetes, I'd probably pull the commercials for that show or the week.

Dukes of Hazzard isn't being banned from TV. It's an "is this appropriate in this moment" issue. And the answer is no. It's not. Come back in a month.

I think you're lumping idiots (your local government, it sounds like) and decent people who are sick of a rebel flag labeling them as crude, hardheaded, and insensitive into the same pile.

2015 is the safest period in recorded history, and each year surpasses the last and it has for the last 20-30 years. Maybe that's hard to believe if you watch Fox News and digest it as gospel, but it's the truth. We've come all this way now, so maybe it's time to look inward a little and rectify some of our parent's mistakes. Like waving a rebel flag in African American's faces in an official government capacity. Or naming public parks and state counties after the founder of the KKK. Maybe we should rename all these pro CSA/KKK things after Henry S. Foote, a Unionist governor of Mississippi who represented a large percentage of Mississippians at the time.

What makes Mississippi great is the people. There are none better. What makes Mississippi bad is the people. There are none more self-deprivating.

 

[Lone Star Hoopcoach]

http://gizmodo.com/heres-how-all-50-state-flags-would-look-as-app-icons-1590476864

View attachment 2095

 

[mstateglfr]

Confederate Flag flew over slaves for less than 10 years.
U. S. Flag flew over slaves for more than 100 years.
You want to get rid of the U. S. flag, too? Don't be a hypocrite.

If the US flag is ever successfully co-opted by domestic terror organizations and by state and local governments to the point that the flag went hand in hand without a doubt representing sweeping acts of violence varying from intimidation to murder, then lets cross that bridge when the time comes.
Until then, don't be stupid and recognize that what flew over the heads of slaves isn't near the top of reasons to change the state flag.

 

[FirstPoetsThenSunDoggy]

Here's the funny thing, nobody in Mississippi is even offended by our state flag. It's PC police from outside of our state that are causing the shitstorm. Beginning with the media and ending with our disgrace of a President.

Now lock it up.

You're entitled to your opinion of the president, but you're factually incorrect to a disgraceful extent to not know that people here in Mississippi have been offended by that flag for a long, long time.

 

[mstateglfr]

My point is they are trying to erase a part of history as if it never existed. If no confederate flag (enemy) who did the Union fight. No confederacy why Emancipation proclamation. Theycant just just take down a part of history and pretend it didnt happen.

Your point(s) continue to be weak at best. No history is trying to be erased. There is no attempt to pretend like history didn't exist.

You claim that if there is no display of a confederate flag on a state flag, then we are erasing history? How lazy is that thinking, seriously?!?
Museums and textbooks exist to educate and remind.


Germany doesn't need to include a swastika in its flag to keep from forgetting about the Nazi party. Cambodia doesn't need a picture of a mass grave on its flag to keep from forgetting what Pol Pot did. South Africa doesn't need a picture of Mandela behind bars on its flag to keep from forgetting Apartheid.

Etc etc etc.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

Here's the funny thing, nobody in Mississippi is even offended by our state flag. It's PC police from outside of our state that are causing the shitstorm. Beginning with the media and ending with our disgrace of a President.

I'm kinda speechless at how completely wrong this post is.

You seriously believe no one in Mississippi is offended by the flag? You live in such a bubble that you've never encountered any of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of black and white Mississippians who don't support it? Hell, the majority of this board are Mississippians who want it removed.

Secondly, the national media has mostly focused on South Carolina while the movement here is homegrown, led by Mississippi organizations, Mississippi politicians of both parties, Mississippi newspapers, etc. Hell, its prominent conservative/Tea Party Republican Philip Gunn who did more than anyone else to get the ball rolling this summer.

Obviously Obama hasn't commented on our state flag (and won't because that's the surest way to get us to keep it), but go ahead and blame him too because reasons...

 

[Thrl595]

If we remove the flag, it won't matter. People around the nation will still call use racist because we live in or are from Mississippi.

 

[ShrubDog]

They will be after your guns next time folks. Buckle down

 

[mstateglfr]

If we remove the flag, it won't matter. People around the nation will still call use racist because we live in or are from Mississippi.

...but if its removed, then at least the people IN Mississippi wont live under a flag that has an image which represents a history of oppression, intimidation, and violence those who look like them...so there is that.

 

[Dawgtini]

You're a smart guy. You know the difference in George Washington owning slaves and the CSA. You know the difference in treason towards England and treason towards the United States of America.

In reality, if reconstruction wasn't such a mess we'd universally hate the idea of the confederacy even as southerners. Us sticking up for something we would utterly be repulsed by if we were able to go back in time is as much of an example of us being ***** as anything I can recall in modern history.

This is such BS. You are a follower of the crowd now, and you would have been then too. #EverybodysDoinIt #TheyreStoopIt #PassTheRope

Judge a man in his own time, not your version of his time.

 

[BeardoMSU]

Bet you didn't know the KKK is a history preservation society. ****

I recently heard someone arguing that Nathan B. Forrest should be considered one of the first civil rights activists. I **** you not.

 

[esplanade91]

I don't doubt it. Mainly because I've heard people say private businesses like Walmart and Amazon shouldn't be able to ban the flag and FREE SPEECHHHDHS!!!! in the same breath they used to call someone a liberal.

 

[Thrl595]

...but if its removed, then at least the people IN Mississippi wont live under a flag that has an image which represents a history of oppression, intimidation, and violence those who look like them...so there is that.

Really? If that is the arguement then the US flag needs to be changed. Didn't George and Thomas have slaves? Many inside our own country look at the stars and stripes as an oppressive and intimidating symbol. Don't hear anybody wanting to change it but that is probably next.

The sad thing is that it has divided the people in this state during a time where we need to try and work together. I guess the uber-left is winning when they pit everyone against each other.

 

[esplanade91]

Who in their right mind thinks the U.S. flag needs to change? Who is saying this? I keep hearing this from pro-rebel flag people like you, and I don't know whether you're being serious or just trying to stir the pot.

The rebel flag was created to symbolize white supremacy per the guy who actually made it. Then the rebel flag was basically brought back from the dead 75 years after the war when African Americans started to make ways in this country by people who felt threatened by them (people like Bilbo, mostly poor white people who competed for low paying jobs with black people) to make them feel unwelcome.

The American flag was created to symbolize 13 colonies. Whether it was flown during slave years or not is irrelevant. The perception isn't that it's a tyrannical flag because it's not and never was meant to be. It's inclusive because it symbolizes 100% of Americans, not just 65% of them.

Quit trying to create a controversy that will never come. No one wants to change the U.S. flag.

PERCEPTION. IS. REALITY.

If you turn on the news you'll be convinced that we're all going to get VD, Sharia law is threatening Alabama, and Obama wants to take away your guns. Because perception. In actuality you're safer than any other point in history.

You keep wanting to make this a left vs right issue. I realize I'm talking to a brick wall, but do you think one form of thinking is capable of being right 100% of the time? It's sickening. There doesn't have to be conflict in this. There IS conflict by keeping the flag. There doesn't have to be conflict if we change the flag.

 

[JungRebel]

"There doesn't have to be conflict if we change the flag."

I agree with most of your post, but come on. They have no choice but to believe and say what they do—same as you.

 

[00dog]

If we remove the flag, it won't matter. People around the nation will still call use racist because we live in or are from Mississippi.

Yes they will. The "Mississippi" name is bound to represent racism to some. It will be no surprise when some people demand that the name of the State be changed to avoid offense. And, I think many of you would be fine with that. if it gets in the way of making money, then it needs to be gone.

Some of the comments made regarding the Confederacy suggest a poor knowledge of history as well as flawed logic. How many of you would go to war to defend someone's else's ability to own a slave? Not many would be my guess. The majority of the South's population did not own slaves. Do you really think that the majority of Confederates went to war so that the small number of slave owners could live the good life?

Don't believe everything fed to you by revisionist history.

Our Founding Fathers committed treason as surely as did the Confederates. It is labeled a revolution when you win, and a rebellion if you don't. Yes, the South lost.

There were principled people on each side of the war, such as Robert E. Lee who was not in favor of going to war, but after careful consideration decided that he should. It wasn't about the money to some people, it was about duty and honor. Those qualities and the men who possess them should be celebrated. The flag symbolizes that to many, the way many of you can look at the Fox News logo and see satan.

I wonder how many of you who so readily acquiesce to pc demands, think that smut, soft-core porn, or porn on t.v. is fine because the viewer can always turn the channel or look away.

 

[drt7891]

I'll bite.

1. I want to see one publication (that doesn't have "right-wing news" or "conservative daily" as the title) declare that the American flag needs to be changed because it represents slavery. I have not heard one person in an interview or otherwise seriously remark that it needs to be changed.

2. This state was divided long before the state flag became the main issue. The state flag issue is only the symptom of an unhealthy divide that has existed since the day our state was founded. One that obviously still hasn't healed.

3. What do we need to pull together for? To maintain the status quo? To keep the flag which harbors the same divisions that existed 150+ years ago? The same status quo that has Mississippi dead last in every single positive socio-economic category? I long to see any change that seeks to better those stats and make Mississippi a better place to live for all its citizens, not just those who fit the traditional mold.

4. My own common sense and empathy for others not exactly like me told me the flag needed to be changed, not a liberal.

 

[archdog]

Bump for that flag. Sold.

 

[StoneColdSaidSo.sixpack]

Seriously, this isn't a left vs. right issue. Phillip Gunn (R) was the first to bring it up as far as MS is concerned. Before he mentioned it, the media shitstorm was firmly concentrated in South Carolina for obvious reasons.

As for the "CSA wasn't just about slavery" crowd, here is a copy of the South Carolina (first state to declare secession) Causes of Secession.

http://www.teachingushistory.org/pdfs/ImmCausesTranscription.pdf

if you ctrl + f the word "slave" on this 3 page document you will get back 18 results.

Not to mention the ensuing hundred years or so that the flag was used to terrify black citizens, or the fact that the stars and bars were the official uniform of team KKK/Ross Barnett.

This isn't left vs. right, its common sense and human decency vs. stubbornness and the "tough guy" assholery that gets us nowhere and is the reason that MS is last in everything. There is a reason for the phrase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thank_God_for_Mississippi

 

[archdog]

Confederate Flag flew over slaves for less than 10 years.
U. S. Flag flew over slaves for more than 100 years.
You want to get rid of the U. S. flag, too? Don't be a hypocrite.

That's a great point, other than it being totally ridiculous. The US government was constantly trying to limit the practice of slavery. It was a states issue. Hence the civil war. We still fight this battle everyday. States rights versus federal government control.

But I digress. Just admit for one second, that you and by extension our official state flag should not use a symbol of hate officially. Just admit that it is our duty and in our control to not practice this "official" racism. We are better than this. We should strive to reach a more perfect union every day as citizens of the USA. This is a step in the right direction. Just admit that we shouldn't be officially racist. Can we all admit that? Now please give me a great reason why we should keep the battle flag as part of our state flag. We as a people can move beyond our history and form a better future. Never forget our struggles and move past them.

 

[esplanade91]

"There doesn't have to be conflict if we change the flag."

I agree with most of your post, but come on. They have no choice but to believe and say what they do—same as you.

Why does there have to be conflict if we change the flag? The ONLY two arguments I've heard are 1. History!!!!! And 2. They'll want more!!!!

Both are absurd.

1. History is awesome. Let's not be like Oklahoma (http://goo.gl/8Cw91K) and teach our children about the Civil War and everything else they want to know. If I can be shown picture of Emmitt Till's open casket in my 7th grade history class (I can pinpoint this as the beginning of my awareness to racial sensitivity... Which is a great byproduct of history and maintaining history... Which no one other than Oklahoma wants to do away with), surely the rebel flag isn't off limits. Retain alllllllll the CSA history we possibly can. Let's not be selective, like telling people the civil war was about states' rights with no mention of slavery or the creator of the flag's meaning of it.

2. This is fear mongering.

Let's get a flag that white, yellow, brown, and black people can like. Why do they have to be white people born and raised in Mississippi by families who've been in Mississippi for 150 years to appreciate the flag or have a say?

 

[QuaoarsKing]

Confederate Flag flew over slaves for less than 10 years.
U. S. Flag flew over slaves for more than 100 years.
You want to get rid of the U. S. flag, too? Don't be a hypocrite.

Why does your side keep clinging to this silly strawman? As I said on the other thread:

I don't understand why your side is either unwilling or unable to grasp that it's NEVER been an argument of "oh noes it flew over slavery it has to go!!!" If that's all it was about, then practically every flag all over the world would have to come down.

The reason the Confederate flag is inappropriate is because the whole point of secession was slavery (I know Confederate sympathizers have trouble accepting that, but read the official secession notices -- they explicitly list slavery as the reason), and the Confederacy ceased to exist before it got the chance to stand for anything else.

 

[MaroonOldCrow]

They will be after your guns next time folks. Buckle down

Nah, they still have too much other oppressive racist symbology to get rid of first: http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/07/confederate_flag_is_gone_is_ne.html


Remember, give the SAWs (Social Attention Whores) an inch, they're gonna take a mile.


Sorry, Saints fans.

 

[KurtRambis4]

This will

never happen. It will be attempted, but it won't ever be successful (and rightfully so).

 

[ShrubDog]

This may be one of the safest times in regards to traditional and violent crimes. Cyber crime is getting more intrusive and broad ranging. And its getting worse. Lets not leave that out of the 'safe' topic because it is relevant.

So we really arent as safe as it may seem. Perception is everything...

It's not a PC issue.

I'm in advertising and I have clients I have to protect all the time because of news and current debates. If I had a soft drink or fast food chain and we bought TV time during the evening news... And 20/20 or 60 Minutes did a show on obesity/diabetes, I'd probably pull the commercials for that show or the week.

Dukes of Hazzard isn't being banned from TV. It's an "is this appropriate in this moment" issue. And the answer is no. It's not. Come back in a month.

I think you're lumping idiots (your local government, it sounds like) and decent people who are sick of a rebel flag labeling them as crude, hardheaded, and insensitive into the same pile.

2015 is the safest period in recorded history, and each year surpasses the last and it has for the last 20-30 years. Maybe that's hard to believe if you watch Fox News and digest it as gospel, but it's the truth. We've come all this way now, so maybe it's time to look inward a little and rectify some of our parent's mistakes. Like waving a rebel flag in African American's faces in an official government capacity. Or naming public parks and state counties after the founder of the KKK. Maybe we should rename all these pro CSA/KKK things after Henry S. Foote, a Unionist governor of Mississippi who represented a large percentage of Mississippians at the time.

What makes Mississippi great is the people. There are none better. What makes Mississippi bad is the people. There are none more self-deprivating.

 

[esplanade91]

delete

 

[dawgoneyall]

Should Black History Month be abolished because 90% of slaves shipped from Africa were captured and sold by other Africans?

That is an absolute terrible history. Much worse than the history of the U.S.

 

[BeardoMSU]

Should Black History Month be abolished because 90% of slaves shipped from Africa were captured and sold by other Africans?

That is an absolute terrible history. Much worse than the history of the U.S.

Very apropos, sweet heart****

 

[dawgoneyall]

The truth is sometimes a terrible thing. Some can recognized the truth and some refuse.

 

[anon1781797764]

Borrowed from a friend...

Guaranteed to be offensive to someone somewhere.
View attachment 2097
Hell, why we're at it, let's change the Seal too.
View attachment 2098