Say something nice about Rick Ray...

[johnson86-1]

MORE players does not mean BETTER players. Your comparison isn't even a fair one. What would be a 'fair' comparison would be to take the 2012 roster plus projected signees when Stansbury was fired and compare that to the current roster with projected signees when Ray was fired. I do not even need to post the contents of that comparison to know the difference is night and day.

It's not that we have more players, it's that Senior Ware, Thomas, and Sword are better than freshman Ware, Thomas, and Sword and while Steele and Lewis would have been good pieces to add to this team, but Steele is not some huge improvement over IJ Ready and Lewis would have been valuable mainly as just another big man. Neither were big time talents that make the talent when ray got here much better than when he left.

And if you take projected signees, we have the guy at LSU (josh gray?) and that was pretty much all we lost that I remember. Now we have Tookie. That seems pretty comparable.

You said we are in a much worse position talent wise and that's just wrong. That's not some huge credit to Ray because the core of our team is made of players that were here when Ray got here; he basically walked into a team short on talent that was young, and left with a team that was short on talent but was older and at least was a full team. But to say he left us in a worse position talent wise is just incorrect. There's no way to spin that statement. You can say we would be in a better position talent wise if we had hired another coach (plausible but speculation) or kept stansbury (most likely true), but he didn't leave us worse than when he found us.

 

[Seinfeld]

I think the issue here is that saying that Ray left the program in a better place than when he found it is kind of like congratulating a NASCAR driver for finally cracking the top 40 in a Sprint Cup race. Is 40th better than last? Sure, but it's still nowhere near what the car owner is looking for

Like others, there's a part of me that wants to say that Ray was put in a spot in which he had very little chance to succeed, but then I remember that he's walking away with ~ $6M

So I guess I'm in the camp that will give him a pat on the back and thank him for his efforts, but I don't know that I can pretend as if he actually accomplished much of anything here

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

He didn't get fired for punching an assistant over steak & fries

 

[fishwater99]

No offense but if you are just learning to recruit in year 3, you really have been taking the money without earning it... We are in a FAR worse place talent wise than when he got here. That is not even close to being debatable. I like RR as a person there is almost nothing redeeming about what he accomplished in 3 years. We went from a program that people thought was a dumpster fire winning 20+ games per year to being a complete joke of a program that won 40% of our games and did not resemble a team that had a snow balls chance of getting into the NCAAT. RR isn't dead. There isn't a point to just make up things to make us remember him better. Nice guy, completely overwhelmed and wrong for the job.

I totally agree he only won 38% of games at over $150k per win..
[h=2]Head coaching record[/h]

Season	Team	Overall	Conference	Standing	Postseason
Mississippi State Bulldogs (Southeastern Conference) <small>(2012–2015)</small>
2012–13	Mississippi State	10–22	4–14	T–12th
2013–14	Mississippi State	14–19	3–15	14th
2014–15	Mississippi State	13–19	6–12	T–11th
Mississippi State:	37–60 (.381)	13–41 (.241)
Total:	37–60 (.381)

<tbody>
</tbody>

He's a nice guy, but he was not a good head coach and probably never will be again.
I wish him well, but we finally have a good basketball coach, probably our best ever at MSU.

Howland > Williams & Stans

 

[AHSDawg]

You are saying that Ray is leaving it in better shape because he has the same players that were freshmen as seniors? We have added virtually no talent AND one can even argue that players like Thomas have done little or no improvement since they got here. I mean, even Sword and Ware haven't grown by some drastic amount. They are just literally the only players we have the team. Them scoring more now than they did as freshmen doesn't exactly mean that they are BETTER.

and again, you are missing the point on the recruits. We have added no one and the players that you are touting as success stories for how Ray has improved the program were not even players he brought in. He literally has only maintained AT BEST. And he made $6M doing that. Is that really a success story? We have a bunch of players on the roster that probably shouldn't be on any SEC roster. I just do not understand how you are continuing to fight this fight.

Just to make this clear again. the 2012 MSU roster versus the 2015 MSU roster is this... THIS would be the comparison. You keep trying to compare the team from Rick Ray's first year to Rick Ray's last year. That is to say that Rick Ray improved himself (which would be practically impossible to not do). That is NOT to say that the MSU basketball program is in better shape than before he took over. Thus, the PROGRAM did not improve during his 3 years. He took over a program on level 5 and left it on level 2.

2012

G	0	Steele, JalenJalen Steele	75 !6 <small>ft</small> 3 <small>in</small> (1.91 m)	190 <small>lb</small> (86 kg)	2.0 !So	Knoxville, TN
3.5 !F	1	Sidney, Renardo	82 !6 <small>ft</small> 10 <small>in</small> (2.08 m)	270 <small>lb</small> (122 kg)	3.0 !Jr	Jackson, MS
1.5 !G	3	Bost, Dee	74 !6 <small>ft</small> 2 <small>in</small> (1.88 m)	176 <small>lb</small> (80 kg)	4.0 !Sr	Concord, NC
1.5 !G	4	Hood, Rodney	80 !6 <small>ft</small> 8 <small>in</small> (2.03 m)	180 <small>lb</small> (82 kg)	1.0 !Fr	Meridian, MS
1.5 !G	10	Smith, Shaunessy	78 !6 <small>ft</small> 6 <small>in</small> (1.98 m)	207 <small>lb</small> (94 kg)	2.5 !RS So	Macon, MS
1.5 !G	11	Clayton, Reed	69 !5 <small>ft</small> 9 <small>in</small> (1.75 m)	150 <small>lb</small> (68 kg)	2.0 !So	Tupelo, MS
1.5 !G	12	Parker, Charles	70 !5 <small>ft</small> 10 <small>in</small> (1.78 m)	168 <small>lb</small> (76 kg)	3.0 !Jr	McKinney, TX
1.5 !G	15	Price, Baxter	69 !5 <small>ft</small> 9 <small>in</small> (1.75 m)	156 <small>lb</small> (71 kg)	3.0 !Jr	Brandon, MS
3.5 !F	20	Luczak, Taylor	80 !6 <small>ft</small> 8 <small>in</small> (2.03 m)	195 <small>lb</small> (88 kg)	4.0 !Sr	Glen Falls, NY
3.5 !F	21	Long, Shawn	82 !6 <small>ft</small> 10 <small>in</small> (2.08 m)	225 <small>lb</small> (102 kg)	1.0 !Fr	Morgan City, LA
1.5 !G	22	Bryant, Brian	75 !6 <small>ft</small> 3 <small>in</small> (1.91 m)	160 <small>lb</small> (73 kg)	3.0 !Jr	Albany, GA
3.5 !F	23	Moultrie, Arnett	83 !6 <small>ft</small> 11 <small>in</small> (2.11 m)	230 <small>lb</small> (104 kg)	3.5 !RS Jr	Memphis, TN
3.5 !F	25	Johnson, Roquez	79 !6 <small>ft</small> 7 <small>in</small> (2.01 m)	210 <small>lb</small> (95 kg)	1.0 !Fr	Montgomery, AL
5.0 !C	30	Lewis, Wendell	81 !6 <small>ft</small> 9 <small>in</small> (2.06 m)	253 <small>lb</small> (115 kg)	3.0 !Jr	Selma, AL
1.5 !G	33	Smith, Deville	71 !5 <small>ft</small> 11 <small>in</small> (1.8 m)	160 <small>lb</small> (73 kg)	1.0 !Fr	Jackson, MS

<tbody>
</tbody>

2015

0	Maurice Dunlap	G	6-2	170	FR	Greenwood, MS
2	Demetrius Houston	F	6-7	205	FR	Montgomery, AL
3	Trivante Bloodman	G	6-0	198	SR	Bronx, NY
4	Johnny Zuppardo	F	6-9	235	JR	Bay Saint Louis, MS
5	Isaiah Butler	G	6-2	214	SR	Brandon, MS
10	Jeffery Johnson	G	6-2	195	SR	Memphis, TN
12	De'Runnya Wilson	G	6-5	215	SO	Birmingham, AL
14	Elijah Staley	G	6-6	220	FR	Marietta, GA
15	I.J. Ready	G	5-11	170	SO	Little Rock, AR
20	Gavin Ware	F	6-9	260	JR	Starkville, MS
22	Fallou Ndoye	F	6-11	220	FR	Taif, Senegal
23	Travis Daniels	G	6-8	215	JR	Tuscaloosa, AL
25	Roquez Johnson	F	6-7	210	SR	Montgomery, AL
32	Craig Sword	G	6-3	194	JR	Montgomery, AL
33	Oliver Black	F	6-9	215	FR	Jackson, MS
--	Fred Thomas	NA	6-5	206	JR	Jackson, MS

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[AHSDawg]

EXACTLY. I don't hate the man. Actually do like him. But that is not going to cause me to forget what an abysmal team we were. And that includes THIS YEAR. We were actually VERY bad most of the time. It takes a special kind of awful to score 9 points in a half.

 

[Predestined]

When he gives a cab driver a fiver, it's cash, not his fist

**

 

[AHSDawg]

I HOPE we debate that he is better than McCarthy's success. But, I am thrilled to be in the position to dream about that being a true prospect for us. After the past 3 years, I had given up hope that we could ever reach the success we had under Stans again. Thank god I was wrong.

 

[fishwater99]

I HOPE we debate that he is better than McCarthy's success. But, I am thrilled to be in the position to dream about that being a true prospect for us. After the past 3 years, I had given up hope that we could ever reach the success we had under Stans again. Thank god I was wrong.

If Howland stays around we will be back in the Sweet 16 in 5 years, IMO..

 

[johnson86-1]

You are saying that Ray is leaving it in better shape because he has the same players that were freshmen as seniors? We have added virtually no talent AND one can even argue that players like Thomas have done little or no improvement since they got here. I mean, even Sword and Ware haven't grown by some drastic amount. They are just literally the only players we have the team. Them scoring more now than they did as freshmen doesn't exactly mean that they are BETTER.

and again, you are missing the point on the recruits. We have added no one and the players that you are touting as success stories for how Ray has improved the program were not even players he brought in. He literally has only maintained AT BEST. And he made $6M doing that. Is that really a success story? We have a bunch of players on the roster that probably shouldn't be on any SEC roster. I just do not understand how you are continuing to fight this fight.

Just to make this clear again. the 2012 MSU roster versus the 2015 MSU roster is this... THIS would be the comparison. You keep trying to compare the team from Rick Ray's first year to Rick Ray's last year. That is to say that Rick Ray improved himself (which would be practically impossible to not do). That is NOT to say that the MSU basketball program is in better shape than before he took over. Thus, the PROGRAM did not improve during his 3 years. He took over a program on level 5 and left it on level 2.

Are you intentionally being an idiot? I said we weren't worse off talent wise than when he got here. That is not a compliment to Ray, it's just a fact. It actually would have been a pretty incredible feat to take the talent he inherited (with his two best players and arguably 3 best players being freshmen) and make it noticeably worse in three years.

You said "We are in a FAR worse place talent wise than when he got here." That's just incorrect, as can be seen from comparing the rosters. The fact that Stansbury had more talented players in 2012 that were already gone or leaving the program before Ray got here does not impact how incorrect your statement was.

 

[BulldogBlitz]

i lead a sheltered life, who did that?

 

[BulldogBlitz]

he didn't take the company card to the strip club and then turn it in on expenses.


at least i don't think he turned those receipts.

 

[AHSDawg]

Yes, it does. Let me speak slowly so you grasp it. We have MAYBE 2 players on this roster that should be on an SEC roster. When Ray got here, we had those SAME 2 players plus at the very least Lewis and Steele along with a point guard that is currently starting for LSU (an NCAAT team). That is HEAD AND SHOULDERS better than what we have currently. No matter how you cut it. If you want to discuss Stansbury's final team roster or the one we had when Ray took over the job. I do not even have a clue as to what you are arguing. You have now changed to say 'we aren't worse than he got here and that isn't a compliment'? WE ARE WORSE NOW. He took the 2 best players we had and 3 best players being freshmen and have them playing the exact same.

Have the last word if you need it. There is nothing else to discuss with you

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

Jeremy Clarkson - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-did-attack-producer-steak-dinner-fracas.html

 

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

He never

punched a Middle Eastern cab driver in the face, and shouted racial slurs at him

 

[johnson86-1]

Yes, it does. Let me speak slowly so you grasp it. We have MAYBE 2 players on this roster that should be on an SEC roster. When Ray got here, we had those SAME 2 players plus at the very least Lewis and Steele along with a point guard that is currently starting for LSU (an NCAAT team). That is HEAD AND SHOULDERS better than what we have currently. No matter how you cut it. If you want to discuss Stansbury's final team roster or the one we had when Ray took over the job. I do not even have a clue as to what you are arguing. You have now changed to say 'we aren't worse than he got here and that isn't a compliment'? WE ARE WORSE NOW. He took the 2 best players we had and 3 best players being freshmen and have them playing the exact same.

Have the last word if you need it. There is nothing else to discuss with you

I haven't changed anything. I said we weren't worse off talentwise, and we aren't. I just pointed out that's not a compliment because you seemed to be under the impression that not being worse off talent wise after three years seemed to be saying Ray did a good job or something or that the program was better off.

But not that Josh Gray wouldn't have been helpful, but he went to A&M before ending up at LSU to post these stats:
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]## Player GP-GS Min--Avg FG-FGA Pct 3FG-FGA Pct FT-FTA Pct Off Def Tot Avg PF FO A TO Blk Stl Pts Avg
05 GRAY, Josh......... 31-20 770 24.8 86-217 .396 14-53 .264 35-60 .583 13 53 66 2.1 61 2 118 81 1 31 221 7.1[SIZE=-1]compared to:
15 I.J. Ready......... 29-21 744 25.7 87-218 .399 28-95 .295 37-42 .881 6 51 57 2.0 46 0 71 41 0 37 239 8.2

I didn't watch LSU enough to know whether Gray was much better, but his stats seemed pretty similar with the exception of turning the ball over much more while also having more assists.

We also have Tookie signed so I guess we'll see how he turns out, but they seem to be comparable recruits.


[/SIZE]

 

[Wooly17er]

He always looked comfortable when talking to alumni with his shirt untucked.

 

[AHSDawg]

Can stats be comparable on teams that are 13-19 & 22-11 and went to the NCAAT?

 

[thf24]

Is Sword included in that "MAYBE 2?" You realize he made second team All-SEC, right? As in, the second best shooting guard in the league? I'd say that means he's probably a little better than "MAYBE" SEC-caliber. And if he and Ware aren't any better than they were as freshmen, show me some evidence of Sword hitting 3's or Ware hitting mid-range jumpers as freshmen like they did this year. Show me where Sword made second team ALL-SEC his first year.

And was Lewis significantly better when he left the program than Ware is now? The two seem pretty similar to me, except that Ware's offensive range is 15 feet rather than 5.

 

[AHSDawg]

I love Sword but he isn't the 2nd best SG in the SEC... You realize that, right?

So, at the end of your argument, how many SEC level players did you count? Was that 2? I love Sword. But, are you really trying to make the argument that Sword is better than any 6 guards at UK? Are you really trying to say that? You do realize that the UK players do not really care about making All SEC, right? Sword would play at every SEC team. Ware would play at most. That is the epitome of my argument. Thank you.

 

[thf24]

Sword would play at every SEC team. Ware would play at most. That is the epitome of my argument. Thank you.

No, you definitely said

We have MAYBE 2 players on this roster that should be on an SEC roster.

Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but what you're saying there is that either of the two might play on another SEC roster, and might not. That's not quite the same thing as one would play on all, the other would play on most.

As for the rest, yeah, our talent from top to bottom isn't SEC-idea by any means, but neither do none of the guys outside our best two belong on an SEC roster. Houston is going to be a solid SEC starter at worst before he's done here, and you can find guys similar to Black, Thomas, and Daniels on plenty of other SEC benches. You're going to be surprised at just how much Howland gets out of some of these guys next year.

 

[AHSDawg]

Are we really doing this? The definition of 'is'? We have 2 players that SHOULD be on an SEC roster. We have a bunch of other players that probably should have been given preferred walk on with the chance to earn a scholarship down the road. I don't hate the kids. Just stating the truth. YOU said that Sword was 2nd team All SEC which leads most people to think you meant he was the 2nd best guard in the league. I hope to hell that isn't what you literally meant. But, I know your general sentiment. Back to my point. We have MAYBE 2 players that would PLAY on a good SEC team. Why is this so difficult?

I actually like Houston a lot. I hope he improves a MASSIVE amount if he is going to be a starter for us. If he doesn't improve a massive amount, I HOPE he isn't a starter because that means we have missed on a lot of players that we would rather sign. Again, I have nothing against the kid. But, right now, he cannot shoot. He's athletic as hell but he cannot shoot. I want players that are athletic as hell and CAN shoot. Maybe they need to grow into their bodies or whatever but I hope we are about to have a lot more to choose from that what is currently on our team. This team was BAD. That wasn't just because our coach seemed overwhelmed.

Sorry to repeat but I am done. If you really think our current team is made up of SEC players, we will never see eye to eye. It's not. It is VERY far from an SEC roster.

 

[olblue.sixpack]

No, you definitely said



Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but what you're saying there is that either of the two might play on another SEC roster, and might not. That's not quite the same thing as one would play on all, the other would play on most.

As for the rest, yeah, our talent from top to bottom isn't SEC-idea by any means, but neither do none of the guys outside our best two belong on an SEC roster. Houston is going to be a solid SEC starter at worst before he's done here, and you can find guys similar to Black, Thomas, and Daniels on plenty of other SEC benches. You're going to be surprised at just how much Howland gets out of some of these guys next year.

I think you are going to be surprised - after Howland works with these guys for a couple of weeks - how many of them will be looking for other places to play. If Newman comes, Ready and the Tookie guy may get 5 minutes a game, which means at least one of them wont be on the roster next year. This roster is about to undergo a massive overhaul over the next 14 months. The guys that would be headliners in Ray's classes are going to be fillers - at best - in Howland's classes, starting immediately.

 

[AHSDawg]

^^EXACTLY^^ Or, I sure as hell hope so... Again, no offense to these guys. Wish them the best at the Delta States and Mississippi Colleges of the world. They should have never been here (certainly not on a scholarship)...

 

[olblue.sixpack]

^^EXACTLY^^ Or, I sure as hell hope so... Again, no offense to these guys. Wish them the best at the Delta States and Mississippi Colleges of the world. They should have never been here (certainly not on a scholarship)...

I don't have anything against them either other than you aren't going to win many basketball players with a roster like that. I don't think alot of people understand what is about to happen. These projects - and even the better players - that this staff signed in the last couple of years, aren't going to play (at least at MSU) once the current staff gets rolling. And I expect that to happen immediately.

 

[AHSDawg]

I agree with you completely. I think a lot of others (in this thread) do not realize what a drop off we have had. AND, in that same regard, what a revival we are about to have. Howland is truly something I never even dreamed of. Hell, I sat here as late as Monday and thought there ain't a damn chance in hell he comes here... Could not be more thrilled to be wrong. And I cannot wait to see him in action. But, as you said, he is about to completely rebuild this team and program. And I cannot wait to see it happen.

 

[olblue.sixpack]

But, as you said, he is about to completely rebuild this team and program. And I cannot wait to see it happen.

And guys like him believe that just because you are rebuilding, doesn't mean you have to have a bad team.

I'll say it again, if he gets Newman and another elite player in the next six weeks - and that isn't too farfetched - you will be writing MSU in your bracket next year. THAT'S how quickly things can change in college hoops.