RIP, Amateurism

[Gromcat_rivals]

You've always confused isolated problems with widespread practice.

Exactly.

To me it feels like an attempt to use isolated incidents and intentionally extrapolate it out to appear like what is happening today has always gone on. The problem is it hasn’t, and even if it had, what we see today is not the same thing.

A booster secretly giving a player 20 grand is not the same thing as Zion Williamson doing car commercials and autograph signings for Steiner in between practice.

And, regardless of what’s right or wrong, it’s the hyperbole and intentional misdirection that makes decent points seem not credible.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

I hate UNC but I dont think you know why. UNC committed gross academic fraud. The problem is, the NCAA only has rules to punish academic fraud if the member school admits it happened.

Doesn't really matter. They would have never touched them anyway.

 

[Gromcat_rivals]

Doesn't really matter. They would have never touched them anyway.

Im with you. I think what UNC did was the worst we’ve ever seen, and there’s a large racial component to it that was ignored by woke sports media because they are largely complicit.

UNC did what they did for one reason - to win with players they felt couldn’t do college work. Black players, who they felt could not perform in a college classroom.

The reason this angle went largely ignored is because the media is STILL pushing the idea that Black Americans cannot perform to the level of their white counter parts. ESPN promotes these ideas daily, look no further than their position on voter ID. They believe Black Americans don’t know how to obtain a drivers license. Lol it’s incredible.

So you can’t go after UNC for it when you’re pushing it today.

Having said that, I disagree with @BigBlueFanGA

The NCAA has a record of going after universities for academic issues. They pretended this time was different but it wasn’t. When players admit that they did not do work and were given fake grades, the ncaa does not have to validate them as student athletes. As BBFGA and I have discussed many times, the NCAA makes its own rules. They simply chose to ignore this particular issue.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Exactly.

To me it feels like an attempt to use isolated incidents and intentionally extrapolate it out to appear like what is happening today has always gone on. The problem is it hasn’t, and even if it had, what we see today is not the same thing.

A booster secretly giving a player 20 grand is not the same thing as Zion Williamson doing car commercials and autograph signings for Steiner in between practice.

And, regardless of what’s right or wrong, it’s the hyperbole and intentional misdirection that makes decent points seem not credible.

I'll ask you too then: how widespread does it need to be before it isn't isolated?

What's the difference in a booster giving Zion money and Zion making money from endorsements? Why is the latter worse for college sports?

What have I hyperbolized? Where does my point stop being credible and why?

 

[Gromcat_rivals]

I'll ask you too then: how widespread does it need to be before it isn't isolated?

What's the difference in a booster giving Zion money and Zion making money from endorsements? Why is the latter worse for college sports?

What have I hyperbolized? Where does my point stop being credible and why?

I don’t know how widespread it was. I don’t think you do either but that never stopped you from saying this has gone on forever in widespread fashion.

I think what we do know is there have been rules in place to prevent or deter it from happening. I feel as though it’s safe to assume it hasn’t been what I’d call “widespread”. Not every player has been bought, not every program has allowed it, and not every booster is corrupt. I’d say the majority of the time it hasn’t happened.

There are many differences in the question you’ve asked about Zion. Too many to name so I’ll just throw a few.

It destroys the traditional nature of the sport. I assure you college basketball will be seen as better when they played for the University and not themselves (even though the lure of the nba has individualized it to a degree).

This is similar to the way people (rightly so) think pro sports were better when less money was involved. I know you don’t really care about those things, and don’t value those types of things, but I ASSURE you most people do.

I’d also say this will most certainly change the sport for the worse as it pertains to continuity of the players, and the value system they themselves play by. There will be locker room issues as a result, and this will translate on the court. Even if the Zion’s were given money under the table, it was done so quietly. It was better for the team in general.

Of course, this isn’t even getting into the dishonest nature of the people pushing this the most. I think we both know your vision of the NIL would be open to anytime anywhere transfer, contracts by the university, and complete professionalization. It’s a slippery slope that will not stop, and I think you’ve already admitted it doesn’t do enough. You want a professional league. Most do not. Most don’t want players to control college basketball. We’ve seen a total breakdown of sports happen when players have all the control. The nba is currently spiraling because of the nature of the sport turning to individual narcissism. I think this correlates as to why the NFL is currently more popular than anything, it’s the only sport where the league still has a large amount of control.

I could go on, but it wouldn’t do any good. Because you don’t value these ideas, it won’t make sense to you. But I assure you the majority of sports fans agree, and eventually sports are going to decline because there is no bond between player and fan anymore.

 

[Gromcat_rivals]

@GonzoCat90 By the way, I didn’t even get into how this will affect players growth and habits as young men as they learn through college and are better for it. Money causes lots of problems, and I hate that during a time when lots of young guys are going through traditional learning curves, we’re going to complicate it further.

College is about learning. We’re getting away from the intention and meaning behind the purpose. Education is important and it should be enough if you want to enroll in a university. If you do not, then go pro, go overseas, or sit it out and wait. But college needs to get back to the business of education, and that goes for players and administration.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I don’t know how widespread it was. I don’t think you do either but that never stopped you from saying this has gone on forever in widespread fashion.

I think what we do know is there have been rules in place to prevent or deter it from happening. I feel as though it’s safe to assume it hasn’t been what I’d call “widespread”. Not every player has been bought, not every program has allowed it, and not every booster is corrupt. I’d say the majority of the time it hasn’t happened.

There are many differences in the question you’ve asked about Zion. Too many to name so I’ll just throw a few.

It destroys the traditional nature of the sport. I assure you college basketball will be seen as better when they played for the University and not themselves (even though the lure of the nba has individualized it to a degree).

This is similar to the way people (rightly so) think pro sports were better when less money was involved. I know you don’t really care about those things, and don’t value those types of things, but I ASSURE you most people do.

I’d also say this will most certainly change the sport for the worse as it pertains to continuity of the players, and the value system they themselves play by. There will be locker room issues as a result, and this will translate on the court. Even if the Zion’s were given money under the table, it was done so quietly. It was better for the team in general.

Of course, this isn’t even getting into the dishonest nature of the people pushing this the most. I think we both know your vision of the NIL would be open to anytime anywhere transfer, contracts by the university, and complete professionalization. It’s a slippery slope that will not stop, and I think you’ve already admitted it doesn’t do enough. You want a professional league. Most do not. Most don’t want players to control college basketball. We’ve seen a total breakdown of sports happen when players have all the control. The nba is currently spiraling because of the nature of the sport turning to individual narcissism. I think this correlates as to why the NFL is currently more popular than anything, it’s the only sport where the league still has a large amount of control.

I could go on, but it wouldn’t do any good. Because you don’t value these ideas, it won’t make sense to you. But I assure you the majority of sports fans agree, and eventually sports are going to decline because they’re no bond between player and fan anymore.

Are all of the examples I listed not widespread or do you just not believe them? Because it seems unlikely to me that the only instances of cheating (often unpunished) are the ones that we know about.

So the rules have never stopped it from happening. They've created selective enforcement that allows the UCLA, Carolina, Duke stuff to happen in plain sight while those who shake the cart like UNLV get in trouble.

THAT ultimately hurts the sport. It's why there are a dozen passionate fan bases and to the rest of the country it's a gambling tv show each spring after football ends.

You're essentially arguing for nostalgia. People think everything was better "back when," the reasons just change depending on the subject. That doesn't make it accurate. People "prefer" music and cars and sports and whatever else the way they used to be, yet they're all still doing just fine, if not better than before.

So yes, people will romanticize the way it was before NIL, just like they did before the OAD and then the three point line and the shot clock and whatever else. None of it has killed the game yet.

There have always and will always be locker room discrepancies. Playing time, girls, booster money, whatever. At least now it's in the open and you can get what you deserve.

The NBA isn't spiraling. The NFL is popular because football is popular. It's easy to gamble on. It's best for TV. It's best for fantasy sports. You can tailgate. MLB is loaded with control and it's far from thriving.

But I guess it's good that you only predicted the downfall of sports and society and didn't use any hyperbole that would have ruined your points.

 

[Gromcat_rivals]

One last thing here:

Shaq, GP, Jordan, Bird, Barkley

All have stated their growth and years in college helped them become the players they are.

Why do I bring this up? Because I think we forget this conversation doesn’t have all of the information needed to understand the side I’m advocating.

If you think about it, Andrew Wiggins might have been a top 50 player of all time in another era. In an era where he played 3-4 years of college basketball without the distractions. Many players we’ve forgotten might have had excellent careers had the original methods been currently available. Think about it, how many players did we think were going to be NBA all stars fall out? How do we know it’s not the result of the current model and not their own doing?

The new way will simply make that worse as young guys with little time to navigate their personal growth and basketball abilities now have to navigate becoming wealthy far too soon for them to handle it.

 

[GonzoCat90]

@GonzoCat90 By the way, I didn’t even get into how this will affect players growth and habits as young men as they learn through college and are better for it. Money causes lots of problems, and I hate that during a time when lots of young guys are going through traditional learning curves, we’re going to complicate it further.

College is about learning. We’re getting away from the intention and meaning behind the purpose. Education is important and it should be enough if you want to enroll in a university. If you do not, then go pro, go overseas, or sit it out and wait. But college needs to get back to the business of education, and that goes for players and administration.

I don't disagree.

I just think the guys that this will really affect, the ones who are going to get "complicating money," are already commodities. They've been meal tickets for decades now.

You'll see a ton of people make a little money from Cameo or camps or selling flip flops or whatever but nobody is going to dismantle their life with that stuff.

The Zions of the world were going to the highest bidder and commanding houses and promises already.

If you can get the schools to go first, I'll support you all the way on the players. But as long as everybody is milking the cash cow, it's only right that the actual product gets a sip.

 

[GonzoCat90]

One last thing here:

Shaq, GP, Jordan, Bird, Barkley

All have stated their growth and years in college helped them become the players they are.

Why do I bring this up? Because I think we forget this conversation doesn’t have all of the information needed to understand the side I’m advocating.

If you think about it, Andrew Wiggins might have been a top 50 player of all time in another era. In an era where he played 3-4 years of college basketball without the distractions. Many players we’ve forgotten might have had excellent careers had the original methods been currently available. Think about it, how many players did we think were going to be NBA all stars fall out? How do we know it’s not the result of the current model and not their own doing?

The new way will simply make that worse as young guys with little time to navigate their personal growth and basketball abilities now have to navigate becoming wealthy far too soon for them to handle it.

We have 20ish years of evidence of guys skipping college or going one year and then to the league. Guys like LeBron have turned out to be well rounded, business savvy, good parents, etc.

You also have countless examples of guys who played four years of college basketball and totally ruined their lives.

Anecdotal examples like Shaq or Glove are no more consequential than somebody like Keith Appling getting four years of Tom Izzo's guidance and being a monster.

Trying to find any correlation there is faulty.

 

[Gromcat_rivals]

Are all of the examples I listed not widespread or do you just not believe them? Because it seems unlikely to me that the only instances of cheating (often unpunished) are the ones that we know about.

So the rules have never stopped it from happening. They've created selective enforcement that allows the UCLA, Carolina, Duke stuff to happen in plain sight while those who shake the cart like UNLV get in trouble.

THAT ultimately hurts the sport. It's why there are a dozen passionate fan bases and to the rest of the country it's a gambling tv show each spring after football ends.

You're essentially arguing for nostalgia. People think everything was better "back when," the reasons just change depending on the subject. That doesn't make it accurate. People "prefer" music and cars and sports and whatever else the way they used to be, yet they're all still doing just fine, if not better than before.

So yes, people will romanticize the way it was before NIL, just like they did before the OAD and then the three point line and the shot clock and whatever else. None of it has killed the game yet.

There have always and will always be locker room discrepancies. Playing time, girls, booster money, whatever. At least now it's in the open and you can get what you deserve.

The NBA isn't spiraling. The NFL is popular because football is popular. It's easy to gamble on. It's best for TV. It's best for fantasy sports. You can tailgate. MLB is loaded with control and it's far from thriving.

But I guess it's good that you only predicted the downfall of sports and society and didn't use any hyperbole that would have ruined your points.

It’s not about romanticizing the past. Most people completely disagree, all you to do is listen to them. There’s plenty of newer things I think are better than the old way. Plenty. This has nothing to do with that. People are going to prefer the former way because they can clearly see it’s better.

The rest it’s just too much to debate. I don’t have time.

 

[Gromcat_rivals]

I don't disagree.

I just think the guys that this will really affect, the ones who are going to get "complicating money," are already commodities. They've been meal tickets for decades now.

You'll see a ton of people make a little money from Cameo or camps or selling flip flops or whatever but nobody is going to dismantle their life with that stuff.

The Zions of the world were going to the highest bidder and commanding houses and promises already.

If you can get the schools to go first, I'll support you all the way on the players. But as long as everybody is milking the cash cow, it's only right that the actual product gets a sip.

Well then I’d say you’re vastly undervaluing the name on the front of the jersey. Zion at Temple, nobody really cares. Zion at Duke, they care.

I’m fine with the NIL as long as guys such as yourself are willing to stop there.

You get the NIL, I get sit out transfer rules and an assurance colleges will never offer contracts, free agency, or other professional rules.

Would you agree to that? I don’t think you would.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Focus on the widespread corruption part then. That's what this conversation was initially about.

Do you believe the only cheaters are the ones we know about?

Do you believe the NCAA has evenly applied rules and levied punishments over the last 60 years?

 

[GonzoCat90]

Well then I’d say you’re vastly undervaluing the name on the front of the jersey. Zion at Temple, nobody really cares. Zion at Duke, they care.

I’m fine with the NIL as long as guys such as yourself are willing to stop there.

You get the NIL, I get sit out transfer rules and an assurance colleges will never offer contracts, free agency, or other professional rules.

Would you agree to that? I don’t think you would.

Why would I have to trade you anything? The NCAA themselves realized they couldn't keep up the charade anymore. I don't have any power here, I'm just trying to tell you it's not the end of the world.

But while we're negotiating:

Get rid of coaching contracts and let the head of the chemistry department lead the football team. Can't fire him for losing and he can't take another job without sitting out a year

No sponsorships or endorsements. Players wear whatever equipment they bring from home.

None of it on television. ESPN can't even show highlights.

Deal?

 

[Gromcat_rivals]

We have 20ish years of evidence of guys skipping college or going one year and then to the league. Guys like LeBron have turned out to be well rounded, business savvy, good parents, etc.

You also have countless examples of guys who played four years of college basketball and totally ruined their lives.

Anecdotal examples like Shaq or Glove are no more consequential than somebody like Keith Appling getting four years of Tom Izzo's guidance and being a monster.

Trying to find any correlation there is faulty.

We don’t know if it’s faulty. We don’t know, it’s likely the absence of traditional college years has affected many players for the worse.

I don’t think there’s many examples of four year college players ruining their lives for the worse as it pertains to college. There are guys in all walks who ruin their lives, but you’re getting away from the point I’m making. Keith Appling wanted to be a gang banger. It didn’t matter what he did. Aaron Hernandez same thing. I’m talking about decent humans who hurt their career by becoming entangled with money, vultures, and lack of education far too soon. I’m not talking about serial killers Gonzo.

Lebron well rounded? Yea, no. Lebron clearly shows he’s not educated, and as far as business savvy, lol. Is that what we call advisors now? Lebron without NBA talent wouldn’t be anything In all likelihood. Pretending to read books is not the same as reading books lol.

This is a different matter though, you’re going to be disingenuous on the topic so there’s no point.

edit: it won’t let me respond. I have like a temporary status or something. Might be tomorrow. These new rules for new posters suck. You have no idea how irritating this is.

 

[Gromcat_rivals]

Why would I have to trade you anything? The NCAA themselves realized they couldn't keep up the charade anymore. I don't have any power here, I'm just trying to tell you it's not the end of the world.

But while we're negotiating:

Get rid of coaching contracts and let the head of the chemistry department lead the football team. Can't fire him for losing and he can't take another job without sitting out a year

No sponsorships or endorsements. Players wear whatever equipment they bring from home.

None of it on television. ESPN can't even show highlights.

Deal?

Ah ha, coaches are paid PROFESSIONALS.

They can do whatever they want. Most played college basketball and went by the transfer rules, salary rules, university rules and so on. They earned it, and they have a skill as professionals.

College kids are not professionals. You need to protect the sport from chaos. Now, tell the truth, I bet a few years back you easily said if we remove the anytime transfer it would not result in chaos. Well we now can clearly see without the rule it’s completely chaotic.

I do believe it hurts the sport, therefore hurts future players. You’re going to have less and less fans who care the more control players have. They care about themselves, not “college basketball”.

What I’m saying is when you allow players to do whatever they want, future players will get hurt by that process.

If I’m right, and I think I am, your constant push will have the opposite effect you’re advocating for.

 

[GonzoCat90]

We don’t know if it’s faulty. We don’t know, it’s likely the absence of traditional college years has affected many players for the worse.

I don’t think there’s many examples of four year college players ruining their lives for the worse as it pertains to college. There are guys in all walks who ruin their lives, but you’re getting away from the point I’m making. Keith Appling wanted to be a gang banger. It didn’t matter what he did. Aaron Hernandez same thing. I’m talking about decent humans who hurt their career by becoming entangled with money, vultures, and lack of education far too soon. I’m not talking about serial killers Gonzo.

Lebron well rounded? Yea, no. Lebron clearly shows he’s not educated, and as far as business savvy, lol. Is that what we call advisors now? Lebron without NBA talent wouldn’t be anything In all likelihood. Pretending to read books is not the same as reading books lol.

This is a different matter though, you’re going to be disingenuous on the topic so there’s no point.

edit: it won’t let me respond. I have like a temporary status or something. Might be tomorrow. These new rules for new posters suck. You have no idea how irritating this is.

I mean, if you take away most people's transcendent money making skill they probably have less money. But sure.

You can use whatever criteria you want, but in 20 years of evidence we've seen lots of guys be just fine and a handful of guys who make bad decisions with money or whatever.

That's pretty standard. Whether it's Antoine Walker or whoever, we'll always have guys who make good choices and guys who don't.

I'd say a college degree helps that, but I'd also argue that letting a guy who may need money to support his family earn NIL money is more likely to keep him in college than chase a career in South America making whatever he can. That *seems* to have happened this year.

#FreeMorg #LetMorgPost

 

[GonzoCat90]

Ah ha, coaches are paid PROFESSIONALS.

They can do whatever they want. Most played college basketball and went by the transfer rules, salary rules, university rules and so on. They earned it, and they have a skill as professionals.

College kids are not professionals. You need to protect the sport from chaos. Now, tell the truth, I bet a few years back you easily said if we remove the anytime transfer it would not result in chaos. Well we now can clearly see without the rule it’s completely chaotic.

I do believe it hurts the sport, therefore hurts future players. You’re going to have less and less fans who care the more control players have. They care about themselves, not “college basketball”.

What I’m saying is when you allow players to do whatever they want, future players will get hurt by that process.

If I’m right, and I think I am, your constant push will have the opposite effect you’re advocating for.

Of course they're professionals. That's my point. There's a market for their skills. There's an industry that makes billions. Their job exists because this whole charade is mega profitable.

I'm saying that the people who perform and draw the crowds and tv dollars and generate the revenue getting a share of that won't change what is already pretty clearly a professional situation.

You said that's the downfall or a bad thing or going in the wrong direction. So I suggested fixing the whole problem. Get all of the money out.

Go back to the days where the students who happen to go to a particular school already and want to play basketball meet up after class and play against the students from a different school who want to play basketball. Let the Phys Ed professor coach all the teams.

But that won't happen. So if we're going to keep letting everybody else make ungodly money, you won't see me arguing that the ones doing the playing shouldn't get a cut because of some pretend sanctity that hasn't existed for a long time.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

One last thing here:

Shaq, GP, Jordan, Bird, Barkley

All have stated their growth and years in college helped them become the players they are.

Why do I bring this up? Because I think we forget this conversation doesn’t have all of the information needed to understand the side I’m advocating.

If you think about it, Andrew Wiggins might have been a top 50 player of all time in another era. In an era where he played 3-4 years of college basketball without the distractions. Many players we’ve forgotten might have had excellent careers had the original methods been currently available. Think about it, how many players did we think were going to be NBA all stars fall out? How do we know it’s not the result of the current model and not their own doing?

The new way will simply make that worse as young guys with little time to navigate their personal growth and basketball abilities now have to navigate becoming wealthy far too soon for them to handle it.

I saw an interview with Bird by Dan Patrick and he asked him if he thought he could have went straight to Pros out of high school.
He said, and I'm paraphrasing: No way. I wasn't anywhere near ready for that. Now, some guys do develop later than others, but realized his body and his game wasn't ready for the Pros.
Now we have 16 years olds signing mega deals to go play pro ball. Times are different. Instant gratification is the way now. Why wait 2 more years to let your body and game progress, go now and take the money?
I'm kind of torn between 2 opinions on it. But is sure seems rushed.

 

[MegaBlue05]

Amateurism has been dead for 25 years at least.

 

[RunninRichie]

I mean, if you take away most people's transcendent money making skill they probably have less money. But sure.

You can use whatever criteria you want, but in 20 years of evidence we've seen lots of guys be just fine and a handful of guys who make bad decisions with money or whatever.

That's pretty standard. Whether it's Antoine Walker or whoever, we'll always have guys who make good choices and guys who don't.

I'd say a college degree helps that, but I'd also argue that letting a guy who may need money to support his family earn NIL money is more likely to keep him in college than chase a career in South America making whatever he can. That *seems* to have happened this year.

#FreeMorg #LetMorgPost

#FreeMorg