Baylor would have won last season

[gwjenning]

I think they had won 23 in a row when Covid canceled the season. I believe they would have won the NCAAT last season as well.
Self and Kansas would have choked. Self is lucky he got to play Cal to win his lone NC. And Cal is lucky he got to play Self to win his lone NC.

 

[dlh331]

Baylor lost 3 their last 5 to end the season in 2020.

 

[UKRuppster]

I don't like to say that for sure in a one and done setting, but they had an excellent team last season and brought back a ton of that team into this season. However, I will say that I think they'd have had as good a chance as just about anyone had there been a tournament last year.

 

[gwjenning]

Baylor lost 3 their last 5 to end the season in 2020.

Your right! They were 26-4. They lost to ok state before this season NCAAT and rolled through it.
I still believe they would’ve last season as well.

 

[UKRuppster]

They lost to ok state before this season NCAAT and rolled through it.

Shows you that conference tournaments aren't the end all be all. I won't say it's bad for teams that win them to gain some positive momentum, but it does only mean so much. I think Texas beat Oklahoma State for the Big 12 title after Okie State beat Baylor, and we know what happened to those teams (Texas in particular losing to Abilene Christian in the first round).

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

In 2012 we lost to Vandy and in 1996 we lost to Miss St.

In 2015 we had a few close calls until we ended up losing to Wisconsin.
In 2010 won a lot until we met west Virginia


Better to lose to end the regular season conference tournament than to lose in the ncaa tournament. Losing humbles ya and either makes you stronger and resolved or it piles on top of ya.

 

[revcort]

I think they had won 23 in a row when Covid canceled the season. I believe they would have won the NCAAT last season as well.
Self and Kansas would have choked. Self is lucky he got to play Cal to win his lone NC. And Cal is lucky he got to play Self to win his lone NC.

You realize you're talking about 2 of the winningest coaches in the last 20 years, right? You may not like either of them, but they've won a few games for some reason. I just find your attempt to slam them both for beating each other in title games a bit humorous. They both won titles. That's elite company.

 

[gwjenning]

You realize you're talking about 2 of the winningest coaches in the last 20 years, right? You may not like either of them, but they've won a few games for some reason. I just find your attempt to slam them both for beating each other in title games a bit humorous. They both won titles. That's elite company.

I know there’s a lot of coaches that have managed to win a SINGLE National Championship with a lot less talent and 5 star players than either of these two. I will say Self is starting to own Cal like many other coaches in head to head matchups!

 

[KyFaninNC]

You realize you're talking about 2 of the winningest coaches in the last 20 years, right? You may not like either of them, but they've won a few games for some reason. I just find your attempt to slam them both for beating each other in title games a bit humorous. They both won titles. That's elite company.

I guess Scott Drew is now an elite coach then, right?

For the record I have never said I want one coach over another, but many on here wanted Drew and got blasted because Drew had never won anything. Well, now he has won the same as Cal, Self, Tubby.

 

[KyFaninNC]

I know there’s a lot of coaches that have managed to win a SINGLE National Championship with a lot less talent and 5 star players than either of these two. I will say Self is starting to own Cal like many other coaches in head to head matchups!

Exactly. During Cal’s run here he has always had more talent than any other team. Last few years his talent has dropped off and his lack of coaching has been exposed. It is easier than ever for other coaches to beat Cal. Why? Because he never changes anything, the other coaches know how to beat him.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Baylor may have won it all last year.. but I imagine that might have changed their roster this year. Very rare to see a team roll to a championship and not have at least 1 of their best better guys be grabbed by the NBA. Also very tough to repeat, everyone is gunning for you.

 

[revcort]

I guess Scott Drew is now an elite coach then, right?

For the record I have never said I want one coach over another, but many on here wanted Drew and got blasted because Drew had never won anything. Well, now he has won the same as Cal, Self, Tubby.

Well, he has joined that club, yes. His team only had to play 30 games to do it, and some may question the value of this title, but yes he's a title winner now. That team played well last night. There is no denying that.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Well, he has joined that club, yes. His team only had to play 30 games to do it, and some may question the value of this title, but yes he's a title winner now. That team played well last night. There is no denying that.

Why put in a qualifier like that? They had to beat an unbeaten team to win their title. 30 games is more than enough to see they were the best team this year.
Hall's first FF team went 26-5 and were National Runner ups. Were they not legit because they only played 31 games? All they had to do was beat an undefeated #1 team in Indiana to get there.
Who is questioning the value of his title? Would you question it if UK had won it this year? Bizarre.

 

[STL_Cat]

Well, he has joined that club, yes. His team only had to play 30 games to do it, and some may question the value of this title, but yes he's a title winner now. That team played well last night. There is no denying that.

"Some may question the value of this title" ...

Not me. It's a title. Everyone was playing under the exact same circumstances. Unless you can show me that some teams didn't live through 2020-2021 in the same way as the others.

 

[STL_Cat]

Yes, it is the reality that they got to play a reduced schedule and a restructured tournament. It will always be known as the COVID-championship. People will look at it as less of an accomplishment than in a normal year. And rightfully so.

But why?

 

[fastpaste101]

Exactly. During Cal’s run here he has always had more talent than any other team. Last few years his talent has dropped off and his lack of coaching has been exposed. It is easier than ever for other coaches to beat Cal. Why? Because he never changes anything, the other coaches know how to beat him.

Always more talent and always less experience and on floor leadership. They balance out in spades at tourney time.

 

[STL_Cat]

Because that is the reality of the situation.

My point is I don't think this title is "less than" any other title. Every team played under the exact same circumstances.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Yes, it is the reality that they got to play a reduced schedule and a restructured tournament. It will always be known as the COVID-championship. People will look at it as less of an accomplishment than in a normal year. And rightfully so.

Completely disagree. You counting every title by every team and person that way? None of these really count? I don't understand.
Did Baylor have an advantage on other teams somehow? I just am not getting this premise.

 

[Blue till I die]

Yes, it is the reality that they got to play a reduced schedule and a restructured tournament. It will always be known as the COVID-championship. People will look at it as less of an accomplishment than in a normal year. And rightfully so.

This makes no sense.

They are legit champs. The were a great team, they were playing as well as any team I've seen in a while.

 

[JwUKFan11]

So the argument is basically that Cal and self are both bad coaches and are lucky they made it to the championship vs each other separate times? That makes sense, solid logic.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Yea! They literally had a 3 week vacation mid season.

Yes, but I have yet to find any other like this season when counting. Wonder why that is.....



It makes perfect sense.

They are the COVID season champions. They are really good, the best team this year for sure. However, we will never know what they were in a normal year. Would it yield the same outcome? No on knows.

Does Bama's count? Does Tampa's? The Lakers? AD seemed pretty emotional winning his first title. Shame it doesn't really count.
Dodgers WS title is null and void? Wonder why these games were televised then? Shame these players sacrificed, trained, sweated, all for nothing.

 

[Blue till I die]

Yea! They literally had a 3 week vacation mid season.

Yes, but I have yet to find any other like this season when counting. Wonder why that is.....



It makes perfect sense.

They are the COVID season champions. They are really good, the best team this year for sure. However, we will never know what they were in a normal year. Would it yield the same outcome? No on knows.

I guess in your mind it will have an asterisk ,but the majority of basketball fans will feel this championship is as legit as any other. I know I will

Is there credible source/analyst anywhere saying this championship should have an asterisk?

If so, please show me

 

[revcort]

Not really though. For instance, Baylor got a 3 week shutdown mid season due to COVID. Each team literally had different circumstances. It was the oddest year in modern history. It will definitely be considered the COVID championships forever and looked at different when compared to others. It would be the same even for UK. It’s just the reality of the situation.

Yep, this is what I'm saying as well. It's not a matter of trying to belittle Baylor. It's just the fact of the matter. This title will be the covid title. It will be seen as an odd year, the most odd in our lifetimes to this point.

 

[STL_Cat]

Yep, this is what I'm saying as well. It's not a matter of trying to belittle Baylor. It's just the fact of the matter. This title will be the covid title. It will be seen as an odd year, the most odd in our lifetimes to this point.

And again, it’s worth pointing out that you said yourself you would NOT be saying this if it were Kentucky

 

[revcort]

Does Bama's count? Does Tampa's? The Lakers? AD seemed pretty emotional winning his first title. Shame it doesn't really count.
Dodgers WS title is null and void? Wonder why these games were televised then? Shame these players sacrificed, trained, sweated, all for nothing.

I'm amazed at the reaction, to be honest. Nobody is saying these championships don't count, just that the circumstances surrounding them were not the norm.

 

[STL_Cat]

I'm amazed at the reaction, to be honest. Nobody is saying these championships don't count, just that the circumstances surrounding them were not the norm.

If you want to say “different”, fine. Odd year, sure.

where I push back is when people say it’s lesser. It’s not. Every team played under the same circumstances

 

[revcort]

And again, it’s worth pointing out that you said yourself you would NOT be saying this if it were Kentucky

I would be trying to argue that it should count as a normal title, yes, but it wouldn't change the fact that it will always have an asterisk. It's just the fact of the matter. This year, in any sport, was not normal. The circumstances and requirements to get to a title were different. For some, those circumstances kept them from being able to compete. It cost them games. It cost them playing time. It cost them time to improve. For others, it was a big advantage. For all, it was not the norm.

If I were a Baylor fan, I'd be arguing this title was even more difficult than the norm. Still, it would have an asterisk beside it.

 

[bigblueinsanity_rivals250340]

Yesterday or day before I thought there should be an asterisk next to the winner of this tournament. Not now. Baylor more than proved their claim as best team. No asterisk needed

 

[John Henry]

This makes no sense.

They are legit champs. The were a great team, they were playing as well as any team I've seen in a while.

The way they played last night, they would have run the 2015 Kentucky team off of the court.

 

[Blue till I die]

The way they played last night, they would have run the 2015 Kentucky team off of the court.

As a UK fan, I can't bring myself to say that, but I would not disagree with what you just said

 

[Blue till I die]

https://www.google.com/search?q=sho...isks&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

tons!

I don't see a single person or outlet there saying Baylor's championship should have an asterisk.

 

[Cal-4-Three]

The way they played last night, they would have run the 2015 Kentucky team off of the court.

What a dumb take. That UK team set records on the defensive end of the court. It wouldv'e been a good game but in no reality would a Baylor team with maybe a couple Pro's run that Kentucky team off the court that went 10-11 deep. Sorry. Delusional.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

They all count as COVID championships. None of their seasons were normal, most were shortened or cut in half.

They were played for money and entertainment.

I know reality sometimes hurts to admit but it is what it is. No point melting down over it.

Not at all melting down. NFL played a full schedule. Bama went 13-0 instead of 15-0. All the records count. Yards gained, TD scored, TDs thrown.
Not avoiding reality on my end.
The season during the 1st Gulf War wasn't normal. The season during the 9-11 attacks weren't normal.
I'm just not going to dis-count someone's acheivement because of circumstances that everyone had to deal with.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

I'm amazed at the reaction, to be honest. Nobody is saying these championships don't count, just that the circumstances surrounding them were not the norm.

Did any team that won anything this year not have to deal with the same circumstances? If the answer is no, then it's no different.

Do we pro-rate Ted Williams lifetime stats because he gave up 4-5 years to serve in the militrary during war or do we just go by what he accomplished?

 

[revcort]

Did any team that won anything this year not have to deal with the same circumstances? If the answer is no, then it's no different.

Do we pro-rate Ted Williams lifetime stats because he gave up 4-5 years to serve in the militrary during war or do we just go by what he accomplished?

Hey Cawood, I appreciate your determination. I'm sure Baylor fans would appreciate it, too. I have nothing against them whatsoever. They're the national champs. But it's not the same set of circumstances for every team. Baylor had a distinct edge this season by returning their entire roster from 2019-20. They were able to build this team last season and just kept improving this season. Many others, including multiple traditional powers, did not have that luxury. They were trying to mix in freshmen and other newcomers on the fly and develop chemistry at the same time. Aside from this, the shortened season- with 10 fewer games than normal- is a clear reason for the asterisk. No true road games, facing hostile crowds, is another reason for the asterisk. No summer workouts.

Now, you say, everyone had to deal with these restrictions and that is true. But for some those restrictions became an even greater edge. Baylor and Gonzaga both would have fit that bill because both teams were pretty much identical to what they were a year ago. It becomes an edge not because of what it gave Baylor but for what it took away from others. This season will always have an asterisk. I'm pretty much done discussing it. There's really nothing more to say.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Hey Cawood, I appreciate your determination. I'm sure Baylor fans would appreciate it, too. I have nothing against them whatsoever. They're the national champs. But it's not the same set of circumstances for every team. Baylor had a distinct edge this season by returning their entire roster from 2019-20. They were able to build this team last season and just kept improving this season. Many others, including multiple traditional powers, did not have that luxury. They were trying to mix in freshmen and other newcomers on the fly and develop chemistry at the same time. Aside from this, the shortened season- with 10 fewer games than normal- is a clear reason for the asterisk. No true road games, facing hostile crowds, is another reason for the asterisk. No summer workouts.

Now, you say, everyone had to deal with these restrictions and that is true. But for some those restrictions became an even greater edge. Baylor and Gonzaga both would have fit that bill because both teams were pretty much identical to what they were a year ago. It becomes an edge not because of what it gave Baylor but for what it took away from others. This season will always have an asterisk. I'm pretty much done discussing it. There's really nothing more to say.

Ha...ok. So teams that had their players return deserve an asterisk? Man that is some kind of take there....wow.
You can be done discussing it. Doesn't mean your view is the correct one. But I respect you discussing it.

 

[revcort]

Ha...ok. So teams that had their players return deserve an asterisk? Man that is some kind of take there....wow.
You can be done discussing it. Doesn't mean your view is the correct one. But I respect you discussing it.

That's not the only reason this season deserves an asterisk, but yes. That's one. Just look at the season- all the teams which returned the majority of their starters did well. The teams trying to mix in new guys struggled. You can't make up the summer workouts. You can't make up the private workouts. You can't make up the practice time, the loss of exhibitions, the loss of additional games. Teams that needed to mix in those freshmen and transfers were behind from the beginning. So, Baylor steps on the floor and just picks up where they left off without missing a beat. And some schools never came close to catching up to where they might normally be.

Kentucky could be used as an example, not in comparison to Baylor but in comparison to where it normally might have been. It may not be the best example because our roster was flawed, but if you give this UK team a blue/white game, 2 exhibition games, and 8 games against cupcakes, would they have ended up 9-16? No. The worst season since 1927 likely wouldn't have happened if not for covid. We would have had summer workouts to develop chemistry. We would have had private workouts to figure out the personnel better. We would have had more practice time before the season and during the season. We would have had a home crowd to cheer the team on.

I do believe my view is correct that this season will be seen by experts and by history as the Covid- shortened season, a season where all the norms were thrown out the window and teams with returning players thrived while youthful teams struggled mightily. No home crowds, no neutral court crowds or crowds of any kind. Some couldn't compete, some had to bow out without playing a game. And all because of covid19. *2021 Baylor

*the season of the covid19 pandemic

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

That's not the only reason this season deserves an asterisk, but yes. That's one. Just look at the season- all the teams which returned the majority of their starters did well. The teams trying to mix in new guys struggled. You can't make up the summer workouts. You can't make up the private workouts. You can't make up the practice time, the loss of exhibitions, the loss of additional games. Teams that needed to mix in those freshmen and transfers were behind from the beginning. So, Baylor steps on the floor and just picks up where they left off without missing a beat. And some schools never came close to catching up to where they might normally be.

Kentucky could be used as an example, not in comparison to Baylor but in comparison to where it normally might have been. It may not be the best example because our roster was flawed, but if you give this UK team a blue/white game, 2 exhibition games, and 8 games against cupcakes, would they have ended up 9-16? No. The worst season since 1927 likely wouldn't have happened if not for covid. We would have had summer workouts to develop chemistry. We would have had private workouts to figure out the personnel better. We would have had more practice time before the season and during the season. We would have had a home crowd to cheer the team on.

I do believe my view is correct that this season will be seen by experts and by history as the Covid- shortened season, a season where all the norms were thrown out the window and teams with returning players thrived while youthful teams struggled mightily. No home crowds, no neutral court crowds or crowds of any kind. Some couldn't compete, some had to bow out without playing a game. And all because of covid19. *2021 Baylor

*the season of the covid19 pandemic

So it wasn't due to anything othrr than covid

That's not the only reason this season deserves an asterisk, but yes. That's one. Just look at the season- all the teams which returned the majority of their starters did well. The teams trying to mix in new guys struggled. You can't make up the summer workouts. You can't make up the private workouts. You can't make up the practice time, the loss of exhibitions, the loss of additional games. Teams that needed to mix in those freshmen and transfers were behind from the beginning. So, Baylor steps on the floor and just picks up where they left off without missing a beat. And some schools never came close to catching up to where they might normally be.

Kentucky could be used as an example, not in comparison to Baylor but in comparison to where it normally might have been. It may not be the best example because our roster was flawed, but if you give this UK team a blue/white game, 2 exhibition games, and 8 games against cupcakes, would they have ended up 9-16? No. The worst season since 1927 likely wouldn't have happened if not for covid. We would have had summer workouts to develop chemistry. We would have had private workouts to figure out the personnel better. We would have had more practice time before the season and during the season. We would have had a home crowd to cheer the team on.

I do believe my view is correct that this season will be seen by experts and by history as the Covid- shortened season, a season where all the norms were thrown out the window and teams with returning players thrived while youthful teams struggled mightily. No home crowds, no neutral court crowds or crowds of any kind. Some couldn't compete, some had to bow out without playing a game. And all because of covid19. *2021 Baylor

*the season of the covid19 pandemic

Well, I dont think your view is correct. It excuses poor play and coaching and devalues those did the opposite.
Cal put together an awful roster. He played players he shouldn't have in positions they shouldn't have been in.

Covid19 as an excuse is weak and lazy.

 

[CatsIndy2010]

Somebody needs to make a shirt that says:

GONZAGA

We weren't Perfect But we had a better record than Baylor.

 

[turkeywildturkey]

I think they had won 23 in a row when Covid canceled the season. I believe they would have won the NCAAT last season as well.
Self and Kansas would have choked. Self is lucky he got to play Cal to win his lone NC. And Cal is lucky he got to play Self to win his lone NC.

Coach Wooden, is that you?