Thoughts on the "bigs" issue

[TomTraubertsBlues]

I don't really have any hot takes on this. From my limited knowledge perspective, it seems like things changed after the 2015 season. We did get the #1 center in Skal, but of course that proved to be an unwarranted ranking. We've got a few highly ranked bigs but nobody at the level of a WCS, KAT, or AD. Obviously, those are lofty heights, but you get my point.

So, I am looking for viewpoints of this issue. Is it a matter of the game moving away from PF and C oriented offenses? Cal changing his recruiting strategy? Unscrupulous recruiting from other schools? Big men souring on Cal for some reason. Or do you think it's not an important issue at all. Not looking for vituperative comments or bashing of the thread. If you don't want to participate, just close the thread. Ok, fire away.

 

[SpamburgerHamburger_rivals101482]

I think it's a combination of a little bit of each of those things. But there also hasn't been many uber-elite big the last 4 or 5 years as there was during that stretch. Looking back at the top 10 recruits each year since the KAT class, Wiseman is seriously the only center that you look at as a can't miss recruit. And if Penny doesn't get hired at Memphis, we would have seen him last night in the Blue/White game. Ayton maybe, but he didn't set the world on fire at Arizona. In a year or two there might be several straight classes with 3 or 4 elite bigs. It's just kinda random.

 

[TomTraubertsBlues]

Good point Spam. Yeah, I didn't really touch on that, but you are right that there just hasn't been the program changing bigs since KAT's class, and Wiseman hasn't yet proven that he is one of those. Although I think he probably is.

 

[Aike]

Marvin Bagley was an elite big and Nike gift wrapped him to Duke. Wendell Carter was almost as good, and he was Duke all the way.

Bamba could have been game-changing, maybe on a Nerlens Noel level, but that recruitment got a little shady too.

I’m guessing if we had gotten one or both of Bagley/Bamba in recent years then this wouldn’t even be a conversation.

We did get Bam, he was pretty good but a tier down from those guys. Maybe a tier down from Bagley and half a tier down from Bamba.

 

[TomTraubertsBlues]

Marvin Bagley was an elite big and Nike gift wrapped him to Duke. Wendell Carter was almost as good, and he was Duke all the way.

Bamba could have been game-changing, maybe on a Nerlens Noel level, but that recruitment got a little shady too.

I’m guessing if we had gotten one or both of Bagley/Bamba in recent years then this wouldn’t even be a conversation.

We did get Bam, he was pretty good but a tier down from those guys. Maybe a tier down from Bagley and half a tier down from Bamba.

If you can't get your team to the Final Four, I don't put you in the category of AD, WCS and KAT.

 

[DCFseattle]

Cauley-Stein was #40 in his class or something like that. Seems weird to include him here.

Anyway. EJ Montgomery was a top 10 player.

 

[JayCatz44]

Cauley-Stein was #40 in his class or something like that. Seems weird to include him here.

Anyway. EJ Montgomery was a top 10 player.

Yeah, but WCS was the No. 1 player in his basketball class to play WR in high school.

 

[STL_Cat]

WCS played football?

 

[Looksbetterinblue]

Bigs are just tougher to evaluate and many times take longer to reach their potential. As the numbers above show, we have got our share of highly ranked guys- just few have been year one game changers lately. They are a rare breed even when you look in total.

 

[jrm693]

According to my new Catspause yearbook that publication has EJ as pick for SEC player of the year, if that turns out right he can in his second year make a huge difference and be one of those type players you are thinking of, the jury is still out on that and based on the Blue-Whits scrimmage it is not a good look. I firmly believe that Cal made WCS who is has been and continues to be one of my favorite Calipari era players and am not confident KAT would have developed at other schools the way he did here under Cal. AD could have played at any JC in country and would have been great. I do believe those reasons you alluded to above are very much a factor in it.

 

[TomTraubertsBlues]

Cauley-Stein was #40 in his class or something like that. Seems weird to include him here.

Anyway. EJ Montgomery was a top 10 player.

Yeah, but he was a 1st team AA, Defensive POTY, and went to 2 Final Fours. Similar to where Herro was ranked and he was a lottery pick. But, yeah he wasn't a single year game-changing player like AD and KAT. Still, didn't want to slight him in the discussion.

 

[STL_Cat]

It’s too early to say for sure but I wonder about EJ’s mental makeup. I don’t mean that in a way to say he’s not a good kid or anything. I just don’t sense the guy has a ton of fire in his belly, and you have to have that. I hope he shows it.

 

[The Independent]

I don't really have any hot takes on this. From my limited knowledge perspective, it seems like things changed after the 2015 season. We did get the #1 center in Skal, but of course that proved to be an unwarranted ranking. We've got a few highly ranked bigs but nobody at the level of a WCS, KAT, or AD. Obviously, those are lofty heights, but you get my point.

So, I am looking for viewpoints of this issue. Is it a matter of the game moving away from PF and C oriented offenses? Cal changing his recruiting strategy? Unscrupulous recruiting from other schools? Big men souring on Cal for some reason. Or do you think it's not an important issue at all. Not looking for vituperative comments or bashing of the thread. If you don't want to participate, just close the thread. Ok, fire away.

Interesting points, but I do not buy into your conclusions. Since moving to Lexington, Cal has signed more 5 star bigs than anyone else in the business, and continues to do so.

Cousins
Orton
Kanter
Jones
Davis
Wiltjer
Noel
Randle
Poythress
Johnson
Lee
Towns
Lyles
Labissiere
Adebayo
Killeya Jones
Knox
Vanderbilt
Washington
Richards
Montgomery

All are 5 star bigs who played on the baseline. As with any big sample of athletes, some did well while others did not for various reasons.

Cal is not letting up on recruiting bigs. He tried to sign Bol, Carey, Wiseman, Hurt, Stewart, Tshiebwe, Dante. He is recruiting Omoruyi and Brown.

It appears that Cal will start Montgomery and Richards together this year. His approach and philosophy have not changed. He still plans to rule the boards and play great interior defense. But he missed on Wiseman, Carey, Stewart, and Dante. Sooner or later, it happens to all great coaches.

 

[SaltyDeezStyle]

WCS played football?

What’s football

 

[JC CATS]

Yeah, but WCS was the No. 1 player in his basketball class to play WR in high school.

A 7' guy played WR, I have never heard that :joy:

 

[GonzoCat90]

The original short trend was the anomaly. There just aren't big men of that quality every year, and for one school to always get something so rare isn't sustainable.

Ayton was for sale. Memphis hired Penny to get Wiseman. Who else has there been since KAT?

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Interesting points, but I do not buy into your conclusions. Since moving to Lexington, Cal has signed more 5 star bigs than anyone else in the business, and continues to do so.

Cousins
Orton
Kanter
Jones
Davis
Wiltjer
Noel
Randle
Poythress
Johnson
Lee
Towns
Lyles
Labissiere
Adebayo
Killeya Jones
Knox
Vanderbilt
Washington
Richards
Montgomery

All are 5 star bigs who played on the baseline. As with any big sample of athletes, some did well while others did not for various reasons.

Cal is not letting up on recruiting bigs. He tried to sign Bol, Carey, Wiseman, Hurt, Stewart, Tshiebwe, Dante. He is recruiting Omoruyi and Brown.

It appears that Cal will start Montgomery and Richards together this year. His approach and philosophy have not changed. He still plans to rule the boards and play great interior defense. But he missed on Wiseman, Carey, Stewart, and Dante. Sooner or later, it happens to all great coaches.

And last year's recruiting class was something of a bizarre anomaly.

Wiseman was UK-bound until Penny took the Memphis job. That was literally the only way UK would lose him, and it happened.

Dante wanted UK and it's been well documented that his handler pushed him to Oregon despite Dante basically saying he wanted Kentucky. This has been confirmed by Sisk and Graf.

Bol wanted to be a face-up guy.

Oscar T was a plan B, and he knew it. He went with the school that brought him to the dance the whole time.

Stewart was a miss, but I'm not sure we'll ever truly know what happened on his official to UK to cause him to go elsewhere.

Carey was a Duke lean from day one.


So, yes it does happen, but if UK lands Wiseman and he goes #1 in the draft, this entire discussion is meaningless. The one thing that could prevent him from coming to UK happened.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

The original short trend was the anomaly. There just aren't big men of that quality every year, and for one school to always get something so rare isn't sustainable.

Ayton was for sale. Memphis hired Penny to get Wiseman. Who else has there been since KAT?

Bagley and Bamba, and know what happened in the back channels with both of those guys.

 

[Aike]

If you can't get your team to the Final Four, I don't put you in the category of AD, WCS and KAT.

It’s a team game. Bagley, Bamba, and Ayton could have easily been key pieces to FF teams with the right players around them. Noel too. Bagley barely missed it. All were better as freshmen than WCS.

 

[Panthur]

Bam and EJ were both pretty highly rated. Vanderbilt was a monster who was just never healthy, but that’s not on Cal. We’ve definitely struck out on some guys at hat time too though.

 

[Panthur]

And PJ often gets short shrift here, but I am pretty satisfied with his whole career here. Coulda used some more FT shooting from him in his freshman tourney, but frankly we only needed that because everyone else ghosted and we had to force an unreasonable portion of the offense through him. I believe the stories that he had a broken finger at that point. I’m cool knowing that some don’t, but at worst it means he went through a FT shooting slump. Still a highly rated big that signed for Cal and at minimum lived up to his HS rating.

 

[STL_Cat]

PJ was a beast last year. Made one of the better freshman to sophomore leaps in recent memory.

 

[harlanhomeboy_rivals210142]

PJ and EJ were/are legit 5 star bigs. And I agree that injuries killed our time with JV. Also, SKJ should be enjoying a WCS development emergence for us right now but made the mistake of leaving us for “greener” pastures and then got booted at NC State.

I still think Nick can be a big contributor now that his playing time will spike out of necessity (see Josh Harrellson). Wiseman killed us for last recruiting cycle as we thought he was in the bag and were playing catch up afterwards. With Calipari’s notable shift in recruiting strategy this year I’m optimistic we sign two studs (Brown and Banchero hopefully) and, if so, last years misses will become a historical Anomaly for the Calipari era.

 

[CatfanMike47]

PJ was a beast last year. Made one of the better freshman to sophomore leaps in recent memory.

He started off slow though! Once the lights turned on he never stopped!

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

We’ve recruited plenty of them, they just didn’t come here. We were hard after Bagley, Zion, and Wiseman. The first two definitely would have made big differences for us.

 

[kybassfan]

I don't really have any hot takes on this. From my limited knowledge perspective, it seems like things changed after the 2015 season. We did get the #1 center in Skal, but of course that proved to be an unwarranted ranking. We've got a few highly ranked bigs but nobody at the level of a WCS, KAT, or AD. Obviously, those are lofty heights, but you get my point.

So, I am looking for viewpoints of this issue. Is it a matter of the game moving away from PF and C oriented offenses? Cal changing his recruiting strategy? Unscrupulous recruiting from other schools? Big men souring on Cal for some reason. Or do you think it's not an important issue at all. Not looking for vituperative comments or bashing of the thread. If you don't want to participate, just close the thread. Ok, fire away.

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!

Its Cal’s fault. If he were a cheating scum bag we’d have better bigs.

As far as bigs souring on Cal for any legitimate reason? That’s stupid.

 

[KyCatFan1]

WCS played football?

 

[BlueRattie_rivals]

Bigs (and by that I mean true low-post players) are such a crap shoot. These kids grow fast, and often you're evaluating them in the middle of their growth. So you look at a kid's frame and guesstimate what his overall coordination, athleticism, hands, etc. will be, and that's not even taking into account desire, work ethic, and general character. The chances of a big man turning into what you think he "could" be are minuscule, maybe 5%. Perhaps 20% turn out to be "good", 35% serviceable, and 65% are disappointments.

There's a reason that there are so few true excellent low post guys in the NBA and yet the game is swimming with excellent guards. In college ball, the schism is even more dramatic.

 

[ScrooDook92]

I think opponents are going to pack it in, I hope that things slow down for Nick.

 

[shutzhund]

I don't really have any hot takes on this. From my limited knowledge perspective, it seems like things changed after the 2015 season. We did get the #1 center in Skal, but of course that proved to be an unwarranted ranking. We've got a few highly ranked bigs but nobody at the level of a WCS, KAT, or AD. Obviously, those are lofty heights, but you get my point.

So, I am looking for viewpoints of this issue. Is it a matter of the game moving away from PF and C oriented offenses? Cal changing his recruiting strategy? Unscrupulous recruiting from other schools? Big men souring on Cal for some reason. Or do you think it's not an important issue at all. Not looking for vituperative comments or bashing of the thread. If you don't want to participate, just close the thread. Ok, fire away.

It may be other programs are pointing out our poor handling of Skal to big recruits.

We didn't seem to know what we were doing.

 

[kywildcat1021979]

It may be other programs are pointing out our poor handling of Skal to big recruits.

We didn't seem to know what we were doing.

Skal was probably handled wrong no question but for other coaches to be able to point him out when you have had Cuz, Davis, KAT , Bam , and WCS being pretty successful seems a little crazy to me.

 

[UKPopcat]

The lack of quality bigs in most classes is why I think us getting Ware’s commitment this early is huge! He’s a big with skills on both ends and is highly ranked but not so high that he would scare off any of our other low post prospects. I really love the way Cal has went about sculpting this class. Just hope we close the deal on a couple more quality bigs.