In other words, they gave them a slap on the wrist.
An investigation is not a penalty, nor should self-inflicted wounds be considered penalties. If your theory is correct, then the NCAA is just as toothless as many suggest.
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In other words, they gave them a slap on the wrist.
An investigation is not a penalty, nor should self-inflicted wounds be considered penalties. If your theory is correct, then the NCAA is just as toothless as many suggest.
Engie, you’re usually a good poster but your theory that the NCAA somehow took the “shape of the program” and transfers into account is just bizarre. And not even really possible. As others have pointed out, the transfers hadn’t even happened. Those were a completely separate issue and had nothing to do with their penalties. In case you haven’t noticed, the NCAA has been handing out those waivers like they’re beads at Mardi Gras these days. If UM hadn’t completely 17ed the way they handled things, they’d still have their coach & they would have played in a bowl game this past season. Must likely, they’d have kept at least some of the transfers too.
I agree with Engie to a point. If the NCAA had reduced Ole Miss scholarships numbers by 20-25 over 4 years in addition to the transfers & 2 lost recruiting caused by the media circus that was self-imposed by Ole Miss, it would have been basically been a Death Penalty because Ole Miss would not have been competitive again for 6-8 years possibly more. It has been 30 years since the SMU penalty & there is no chance that they will regain their status of the mid-80's in the the foreseeable future. The NCAA has all but publicly stated that they do not ever intend to punish a football program the way they did SMU. Granted the timing of the first round of Conference realignment could not have happened at a worse time for SMU. The SEC also did not need the SMU result for a member institution. As much as I wanted that result, it was never going to happen.
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Well if that’s actually what happened, then OM won....no question about it. Even in spite of their dumbass decision making and blatant violations, they are probably looking at a total of 2017-2019 as their penance, and that’s it. Three seasons of subpar football, one in which they still went .500 and got an Egg Bowl win on the road against a Top 20 MSU team. That’s more than worth the back to back NY6 appearances (especially considering they would have won the West without the 4th and 25 miracle play).
By the time 2020 rolls around, the Luke experiment will be over. They’ll probably stick with the Freeze formula and bring home Jay Hopson after striking out on a few bigger name guys. He won’t register as a big name hire, but in reality is probably a better coach AND recruiter than Freeze ever thought about being. And he knows how things work up there too with the network, remember he played under Brewer. If that happens, they’ll be back at .500 in 2020 with some of the recruits they are bringing in this year, then back up to 7-8 wins per year easy for 2021 and beyond. NCAA should have buried their asses based on what they had on them, but they didn’t. And now its open season on cheating.
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That all sounds awesome, until you consider the ncaa would be setting case precedent for future appeals by future programs caught cheating, if they did what you’re suggesting. You’re overthinking it.
What do you mean why isn’t it “business as usual” up there? They are coming off a two year bowl ban, haven’t played a postseason game since their current incoming recruiting class were freshmen in high school, have been plastered with negative publicity from players smoking weed with gas masks to coaches calling hookers to boosters suing recruits, have a coach who everyone knows is a lame duck, and they are STILL bringing in a Top 25 recruiting class this year.
It absolutely IS business as usual up there right now, and its only going to escalate again once they get Luke out of there and start pulling the same rope again under the new coach. The NCAA made that possible with their bungling of the entire punitive process according to their alleged “penalty matrix”, which might as well just been a hastily sketched scribble on the back of a napkin in the trash can of Mark Emmert’s private executive ******* in Indianapolis. They are a whole 2 spots behind us in the 247 composite rankings right now. 2 spots behind a team that’s been to 9 straight bowl games, finished ahead of them in the standings for 8 of the past 9 years, and who has 3 or 4 players who are premier household names in the NFL right now. It’s a travesty that the NCAA 100% could have prevented, but allowed to happen.
It absolutely IS business as usual up there right now, and its only going to escalate again once they get Luke out of there and start pulling the same rope again under the new coach. The NCAA made that possible with their bungling of the entire punitive process according to their alleged “penalty matrix”, which might as well just been a hastily sketched scribble on the back of a napkin in the trash can of Mark Emmert’s private executive ******* in Indianapolis. They are a whole 2 spots behind us in the 247 composite rankings right now. 2 spots behind a team that’s been to 9 straight bowl games, finished ahead of them in the standings for 8 of the past 9 years, and who has 3 or 4 players who are premier household names in the NFL right now. It’s a travesty that the NCAA 100% could have prevented, but allowed to happen.
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Just agree to disagree. An investigation absolutely IS a penalty. Contending otherwise is asinine and just shows that we're too far apart on it to reach any kind of middle ground.
I'd love for you to explain to anyone that's ever been investigated for anything -- even if/when they were eventually even found innocent -- that they were not penalized...
Don't let it go that their 1st son Archie Manning and Glen ?? from Fed X hand-picked Freeze to do what he did, period. They had to protect Archie's wonderful personality.
The transfers had happened prior to the conclusion of the case. And at the very minimum, the things were happening concurrently. You don't think Tom Mars had talked to all of those people prior to the announcement of sanctions on Dec 1, 2017? And even that isn't the actual conclusion.
I could even argue the total other direction effectively. That OM aced the investigation and pulled the strings about as well as they possibly could. But I won't. Because many obviously believe what is an OM site propaganda creation on their handling of the investigation -- rather than taking a long, hard look at it realistically.
And before anyone thinks I don't have my finger on the pulse of what happened in the investigation -- you should go back to 2013 and read what I posted back then -- when probably greater than 50% of this website was carrying their water for them in denial that there even was an investigation.
Jesus Christ. An investigation is not a penalty. For you to say otherwise is one of the dumbest things ever posted on this board, and that's a significant accomplishment. An investigation is process undertaken to determine if an infraction was committed. A penalty is punishment for an infraction found during an investigation and proven through corroborated evidence. Investigations aren't pleasant, but they are part of the process, not the end game.
Let's say a man kills someone in a DUI accident. He's indicted, bankrupted by legal fees, loses his job, his wife divorces him because she's sick of his drinking, and his life is basically in the toilet. Then at the trial, the jury comes back with a guilty plea. Do you think they'll give him three months in jail and a $500 fine just because the investigative process was penalty enough? No, his *** is going to jail, because if you do the crime, you do the time.
All that said, the investigation was long and contentious only because Ole Miss stonewalled, concealed, and sandbagged. It took two years longer than it needed to, and it became a big news story because of how they colluded with media to hide the investigation or misrepresent the significance of it. A more open and cooperative process, with true "exemplary cooperation" would have resulted in a much quicker investigation, and likely a less significant case. So my point still stands....Ole Miss is in the toilet because of Ole Miss and not because of the penalties doled out by the NCAA. They deserve at least double of what they got in penalties from the NCAA.
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Yeah, the fact that you are buying hype on this OM recruiting class tells me all it needs to tell me. Drink that koolaid.
What the hell? There is no hype. It’s the objective rankings from a 3rd party website that has no skin in the game of making OM or MSU look good or bad. They are ranked where they are because they are still doing the **** they’ve always done to entice players. That’s the whole point. They haven’t slowed down one iota from the sanctions. And honestly, I don’t know that I even blame them....considering that the NCAA only uncovered probably 5% of what was actually going on up there. They have four 4* players in the class that most of the SEC wanted, including 2 that they flipped from us, one of which is in a big MSU town. Are you really going to sit here and say they aren’t paying the **** out of players even now?
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You are really obsessing over the semantics of this huh?
Your DUI analogy was a joke. What happens when the same guy is found innocent at the end of all that? His whole life was ruined -- but by your definition -- the investigation didn't penalize him at all. Guilt in the court of public opinion(which is what recruiting is) -- in today's age -- is decided on the indictment -- which in this case was probably the LOI and for sure was the NOA(s).
If the investigation wasn't a penalty why couldn't St Hugh recruit anymore all of a sudden practically overnight? Don't answer -- because it doesn't matter. I'll try for a third time to just agree to disagree.
Your DUI analogy was a joke. What happens when the same guy is found innocent at the end of all that? His whole life was ruined -- but by your definition -- the investigation didn't penalize him at all. Guilt in the court of public opinion(which is what recruiting is) -- in today's age -- is decided on the indictment -- which in this case was probably the LOI and for sure was the NOA(s).
If the investigation wasn't a penalty why couldn't St Hugh recruit anymore all of a sudden practically overnight? Don't answer -- because it doesn't matter. I'll try for a third time to just agree to disagree.
There isn't? You are perpetuating it and I guess don't even realize it.
Is it? How many of their players did we recruit hard? After all, there is always extensive carryover. Go to naming them. I'll keep one hand out to count and will have plenty of space left over on the hand. Then go to naming all of the guys they were in recruiting battles for here toward the end with other SEC powers.
.
They aren't. I'm not saying they are totally clean right now. But they aren't playing even remotely the same game that they were playing before.
That's what I'm saying. They have Jackson, who they were always going to get and that we wanted. The 4* OT is Jake Thomas -- they were the only school still recruiting him by the time he committed. Mingo is about as committed to them as Emerson is to us. And make no mistake -- under normal circumstances Mingo is 100% Ole Miss. He's been theirs to lose since the beginning of his recruitment as a junior. The 4* JUCO DL is a 90 that's been rated in one single evaluation on 247 and nowhere else. He did light up the stat sheet at Northeast, I'll give him that much. He took one visit -- OM. Can see no evidence that he was actively recruited by any of the other claimed offers. He might end up being awesome. Not sure how he's going to avoid a constant double team if he is though. If you think that's them still going full Nkemdiche and Tunsil, I really don't know what to tell you. Other than to ask Yancy, I guess.
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I’m not perpetuating ****. You are acting like I’m saying they have some super awesome class. I’m not. I’m simply saying their class is a lot better than it should be, given the circumstances. They’d be at Vandy level class ranking if they truly cut out their shenanigans, given their current program climate.
Not even getting into that because it’s totally irrelevant. How hard our staff went after their guys isn’t a proven qualifier to their talents, or lack thereof. Sorry, but Moorhead and company aren’t even close to being proven as the talent identifiers as Mullen’s staff were...not yet. Hadn’t even brought in his first class of his guys yet. He pulls in some Benardrick McKinneys, Jon Banks’, and Dak Prescotts, then you can make that argument that we’re in good shape if we didn’t go after their guys hard. The fact is, like always, both classes are comprised of a vast majority of 3* players. And therefore, the majority of both our class ranking and theirs is based on the numerical rankings of those 3* guys. Only time will tell how that plays out, but history tells us they’ll have a few break out, as will we. You’re just being a homer if you think our ranking is any more valid than theirs. Either you believe in the ranking system or you don’t.
Ha, normal circumstances? So, recruiting on the heels of a 2 year bowl ban with a lame duck coach and a talent deficient roster qualify as “normal circumstances” for OM? Not even close. Yet, they still landed him. How?
Trivia for the day....
The NCAA actually only "cancelled" one season of football for SMU. For the second season they penalized them in the form of not allowing any home games, only road games.
SMU officials saw that they had lost the majority of their players and made the decision to forgo the second season entirely, focusing only on gathering enough players to field a team for the next season.
I used the term "cancelled" because the NCAA did not use the term "death penalty" when handing down their sanctions. That term was coined in the media after the fact.
Now you know the rest of the story. Gooooood day.
The NCAA actually only "cancelled" one season of football for SMU. For the second season they penalized them in the form of not allowing any home games, only road games.
SMU officials saw that they had lost the majority of their players and made the decision to forgo the second season entirely, focusing only on gathering enough players to field a team for the next season.
I used the term "cancelled" because the NCAA did not use the term "death penalty" when handing down their sanctions. That term was coined in the media after the fact.
Now you know the rest of the story. Gooooood day.
We'll revisit in February when this game is actually played out. You are freaking out about a 27 member class with about one clear high school difference-maker in it.
Landed? What's he doing in Starkville this weekend?
Your Mingo comments are ridiculous, and you don't know what you are talking about.
If you believe this, then you haven't followed recruiting very closely over the past 10 years.
I think most of their sanctions were ok, with the huge exception of the scholarship reductions. And I don't think that had anything to do with the trajectory of their program at the time the sanctions were handed down. I think that the members of this particular committee didn't like the idea of eliminating any more scholarships than they had to because they see it as also eliminating opportunities for kids to go to college.
Exactly. The class that they are bringing in this year is awful. They stock piled a bunch of 3 stars and took way more commits than anyone else in an effort to fool people about how their recruiting class was going rankings wise (and it obviously worked on that guy). They will not finish in the top 30 and probably won’t finish in the top 35. That’s a recipe for a whole lot of 4-8 seasons in this conference, unless you have a great coach.
The fact that they didn’t hit them with many scholarship losses and then had the audacity to overturn the unofficial visit restriction as if that was too much punishment was a 17’ing joke.
Settle down Francis. I’m not “freaking out” about anything. Definitely wouldn’t trade classes with them. That doesn’t mean they aren’t in way better shape than they should be due to the NCAA going light on them. You are probably one of the first people I’ve seen anywhere in the MSU fanbase that thinks OM’s punishment was proportional to their crime. That’s what started this whole thing to begin with.
By most all accounts, the same thing Nathan Pickering will be doing in Oxford next weekend, and Tuscaloosa the weekend after that....enjoying himself. Would love to be wrong. We all know our track record with receivers, and theirs. Wouldn’t get your hopes up
Ha, we’ll see. You have no idea how much I’d love for you to be right.
They got nothing.
Aside from his own lies, the Holy Man they hired lost his job because the administration had beef with Houston Nutt. If they would have issued a half-*** public apology the first time he asked, there would be no (known) record of the *many* dials to ladies of the evening -- er, "whores" to the lay person.
The only real impactful punishment -- the cut to recruiting visits -- was lifted. They got off scott-free if they got to keep that shiny Sugar Bowl trophy.
Aside from his own lies, the Holy Man they hired lost his job because the administration had beef with Houston Nutt. If they would have issued a half-*** public apology the first time he asked, there would be no (known) record of the *many* dials to ladies of the evening -- er, "whores" to the lay person.
The only real impactful punishment -- the cut to recruiting visits -- was lifted. They got off scott-free if they got to keep that shiny Sugar Bowl trophy.
Ha, OK. I’ll just take your word for it that there was no funny business whatsoever with Mingo and Jackson, and that they aren’t doing anything sketchy at all. They would be in the 40’s class rank right now if they just started cutting all the BS out. I’ve followed plenty of recruiting over the past 20 years....this is about the weakest their program has been perception wise since they fired Orgeron in 2007. Even weaker than this time last year. And they are still bringing in an OK class (aGAIN, not a great one, but an OK one). If they let Mingo slip away, don’t add any other big names, and do wind up in the high 30’s or so, then yeah we can revisit this. But as of right now they seem to be improved over last year despite their program being in worse shape.
Where did I say or even imply that they weren't doing anything sketchy at all? If you want to say that they are still cutting some corners then that's one thing, but that is a far cry from what you said:
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