OT: Estate/Conservatorship questions

[NOATLDAWG]

Anyone on here have recent estate/conservatorship experience?

I have been approved by the court as conservator for my father who has dementia. But, it still seems like I am being tasked with things and not allowed to do some things. Like a bank not allowing me to take out an IRA to pay his debts for worry about 'tax penalties'... my father is +70 and has failing health... He does not qualify for ANY IRA withdrawal penalties or taxes. If an IRA is not to supplement retirement income DURING RETIREMENT, what the hell is it for?!?!?! I think the bank is purposefully being a headache to deal with...

 

[GloryDawg]

Deleted due to reading ability.

 

[8dog]

If its a traditional IRA he is subject to taxes but not penalties. Get a court order ordering you to withdraw it and/or ask to speak to their legal dept.

 

[NOATLDAWG]

So, more info. He is not contributing anymore to this IRA. it is a traditional. And I am not worried about his 'taxes' since he has a ton of medical deductions due to his medical bills... PLUS. he needs the money to pay some bills. It may cost him a little money but there are no other options...

 

[GloryDawg]

Anyone on here have recent estate/conservatorship experience?

I have been approved by the court as conservator for my father who has dementia. But, it still seems like I am being tasked with things and not allowed to do some things. Like a bank not allowing me to take out an IRA to pay his debts for worry about 'tax penalties'... my father is +70 and has failing health... He does not qualify for ANY IRA withdrawal penalties or taxes. If an IRA is not to supplement retirement income DURING RETIREMENT, what the hell is it for?!?!?! I think the bank is purposefully being a headache to deal with...

I am sorry I misread your post. When you said take out a IRA I thought you meant a new one. If he is 72 he has to take RMD's and they have to let him take it out. You have to remember the States regulate retirement plans really hard to keep seniors from being taken advantage of. The bank might be following the law.

 

[NOATLDAWG]

And I completely appreciate the 'protecting' aspect. But, it is not as though I am random... I am the conservator at this point. Might as well be as though I am him asking for this. Right?!?!?

 

[LawDawg97]

Assuming the conservatorship that was granted gave you full authority

to manage your father's assets (with all rights to deposit, withdraw, transfer, etc.) like most conservatorships do, then no bank should be telling you what you can and can't do - especially if they are "worried" about penalties. Sounds like there shouldn't be any anyway, and even if there were penalties that is your business to decide. Get a clear copy of what the conservator order says, go back to the bank and ask in writing why they are not allowing you to handle your father's affairs. If they truly have a legal reason for not doing so you can take that to the supervising court and get your duties clarified through an amended order if needed.

 

[Drebin]

to manage your father's assets (with all rights to deposit, withdraw, transfer, etc.) like most conservatorships do, then no bank should be telling you what you can and can't do - especially if they are "worried" about penalties. Sounds like there shouldn't be any anyway, and even if there were penalties that is your business to decide. Get a clear copy of what the conservator order says, go back to the bank and ask in writing why they are not allowing you to handle your father's affairs. If they truly have a legal reason for not doing so you can take that to the supervising court and get your duties clarified through an amended order if needed.

It's such a hassle, though, right? This guy has enough on his mind without having to jump through hoops for the bank. If he has a true, legal conservatorship grant, this shouldn't be an issue, especially since his father is over 70.

 

[LawDawg97]

Exactly. It should not be an issue if the order is clean. That's why I say get them to tell you in writing what basis they have for denying your decisions and defying an order of the court, otherwise get out of the way. Usually there is no basis for it other than being a headache.

 

[NOATLDAWG]

Thank you, Lionel Hutz... I was granted as 'General' or full conservator. THIS is the common sense I have been having but unable to get anyone at this bank to have... Everything seems to be functioning as a 'well, there could be this down the road'... and allowing for these protections. It is causing me headache, time, money and stress.

And I am 100% not arguing against documenting and filing those spending reports for the court. I am just tired of the process where I seem to run around the same tree over and over.

 

[johnson86-1]

So, more info. He is not contributing anymore to this IRA. it is a traditional. And I am not worried about his 'taxes' since he has a ton of medical deductions due to his medical bills... PLUS. he needs the money to pay some bills. It may cost him a little money but there are no other options...

There is the option of not paying the bills, depending on what they are. If he doesn't have a ton of resources (which I'm assuming is the case if the only money is an IRA), you need to conserve his money to pay for necessities, which will be pretty expensive for somebody with dementia. The money in the IRA, depending on where you are, may be protected from judgments. If it's protected, I wouldn't pay for anything except for utilities and a mortgage for right now. I wouldn't pay any outstanding medical bills except from providers you need to keep providing care.

 

[NOATLDAWG]

Your thinking is RIGHT in line with mine. I definitely will not pay out anything that doesn't have to be paid and definitely know to keep it protected IN the IRA if at all possible. Good points and these are my thoughts as well

 

[johnson86-1]

Thank you, Lionel Hutz... I was granted as 'General' or full conservator. THIS is the common sense I have been having but unable to get anyone at this bank to have... Everything seems to be functioning as a 'well, there could be this down the road'... and allowing for these protections. It is causing me headache, time, money and stress.

And I am 100% not arguing against documenting and filing those spending reports for the court. I am just tired of the process where I seem to run around the same tree over and over.

If the bank is not small enough for you to get in touch with a decision maker, you need to send something like the following to the bank, certified mail:

"I am following up on my request of [DATE] to withdraw funds from the IRA of [name]. You have denied my request, despite my providing a court order authorizing me to act on my father's behalf (I have enclosed a copy of said order for your convenience). The inability to withdraw funds will result in my father accruing penalties and interest. Please provide in writing a reason that you feel Judge (name's) order is inadequate for this purpose, and I will submit such reason to the Judge to request a modification to cure whatever inadequacy you identify. If you do not feel the order is inadequate, please honor my earlier request by [DATE] so that I can avoid my father being subject to penalties and interest on moneys owed by him."

 

[dudehead]

Anyone on here have recent estate/conservatorship experience?

I have been approved by the court as conservator for my father who has dementia. But, it still seems like I am being tasked with things and not allowed to do some things. Like a bank not allowing me to take out an IRA to pay his debts for worry about 'tax penalties'... my father is +70 and has failing health... He does not qualify for ANY IRA withdrawal penalties or taxes. If an IRA is not to supplement retirement income DURING RETIREMENT, what the hell is it for?!?!?! I think the bank is purposefully being a headache to deal with...

You need to prepare and submit a conservator's plan for investing, protecting, managing and spending the ward's estate. The court will consider the plan, suggest any modifications, and enter an order adopting a plan. If the plan includes spending the IRA money, then the court order adopting the plan will be all you need for the IRA custodian to make distributions as provided in the plan.

 

[NOATLDAWG]

While all of that makes sense... Isn't that between the court and myself?

Also, just for extra info. This is about a $50k IRA... I know the size doesn't matter but this really seems above and beyond for such a small amount in the grand scheme.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

Sorry you are having difficulties. I have dealt with the same issues.

General advice for people with elderly parents. If your family situation is good (you, parents and your siblings are all trustworthy and on the same page) get your (or one of your siblings) name on all of their accounts now before they become incapacitated. Know what bills they pay, were the money is kept, what their funeral wishes are, etc.

 

[NOATLDAWG]

I definitely agree with this although.... most of us never appreciate or know when that time is the right time and they wait too long. And usually the trust amongst siblings (and people in general) is only skin deep...

 

[johnson86-1]

Sorry you are having difficulties. I have dealt with the same issues.

General advice for people with elderly parents. If your family situation is good (you, parents and your siblings are all trustworthy and on the same page) get your (or one of your siblings) name on all of their accounts now before they become incapacitated. Know what bills they pay, were the money is kept, what their funeral wishes are, etc.

Possibly most importantly, get yourself listed as a contact on any long term care insurance products. It's not uncommon for elderly people losing their facultites to stop paying on long term care policies, which of course the insurance companies love. Have come across several people who paid thousands and thousands of dollars for long term care insurance only to let their policy lapse not long before they needed it.

ETA: Same goes for life insurance. Dealt with somebody recently who was struggling financially because she stupidly listened to her sister, who told her to stop paying premiums on a million dollar life insurance policy for her husband, who had recently suffered a stroke and was bedridden, because the insurance was "too expensive". Saved about $5,000 in premiums and only had to give up a $1M payout that she would have gotten in less than six months. Had a child that I'm sure would have picked up those premiums in order to ensure his mother didn't move in with him, but she didn't consult with him. Hell, I would have paid her premiums in exchange for 1/5th of the eventual payout and would have felt like I was taking advantage of her. Sad thing is her sister didn't have dementia. She was just a moron. I think the mother was just worn down from the stress of dealing with a sick husband and not thinking straight.

 

[GloryDawg]

While all of that makes sense... Isn't that between the court and myself?

Also, just for extra info. This is about a $50k IRA... I know the size doesn't matter but this really seems above and beyond for such a small amount in the grand scheme.

This is going to sound bad but would ask for some medication from doctor with the cognitive issue and coach him up, carry him to the bank and walk him through the process. Just surrender the policy and pay any surrender charges then move on. If the IRA is in a CD there will be surrender charges however that CD is going to end soon and there will be no surrender charges. If it is in an annuity chances are it is old enough to there is no surrender charges. *you have to remember no matter what you do, it is LIFO and the first money to take you will have to be gain. He will owe tax which you understand but what you may or may not know is that income could effect if he will owe any income tax on his Social Security Benefit. I believe an individual can have up to 25K in income and is SS benefit not be income taxable.*

 

[NOATLDAWG]

If I had any idea I would still be dealing with this 9 months later, I would have definitely done this... Especially in a non-COVID world. I have spent $4k on attorneys and am still running into the same headache with the same bank that I ran into last July... That is why I am DONE and looking for the best way to blow this up...

 

[dudehead]

If I had any idea I would still be dealing with this 9 months later, I would have definitely done this... Especially in a non-COVID world. I have spent $4k on attorneys and am still running into the same headache with the same bank that I ran into last July... That is why I am DONE and looking for the best way to blow this up...

I don't know what you mean by "blow this up" but I strongly advise you not to do anything stupid. You are serving in a fiduciary role of your father's money subject to the supervision and direction of the court. You need to discuss this with your attorney in this matter and not take any rash actions. Best to you and your father.

 

[Shmuley]

I quit trying to provide basic legal advice on here. Each situation is so fact specific that it serves very little purpose to try and engage. The only point I'll make here is that lending institutions are exceedingly concerned, and rightfully so, about elderly, compromised customers and their accounts. And nothing in your Letters of Conservatorship provides any real or practical protection. If you want the bank to "just do it," you need to give them an order signed by the Chancellor laying out exactly what you want them to do.

 

[dorndawg]

I quit trying to provide basic legal advice on here. Each situation is so fact specific that it serves very little purpose to try and engage. The only point I'll make here is that lending institutions are exceedingly concerned, and rightfully so, about elderly, compromised customers and their accounts. And nothing in your Letters of Conservatorship provides any real or practical protection. If you want the bank to "just do it," you need to give them an order signed by the Chancellor laying out exactly what you want them to do.

Not arguing with you at all but are you saying an executor of a conservatorship has to get an order from a Chancellor each time they want to make a bank transaction?

 

[Shmuley]

No, sir. What I am saying is that individual banks respond differently when encountering a general conservatorship order and letters of conservatorship where the funds are on deposit in the name of the ward. Until those generalized court documents are placed in front of the depository's legal counsel, one cannot generally know ahead of time how the bank will respond (or not respond). If a court-appointed conservator encounters a depository that is resistant and unwilling to cooperate and generally being all ***-holish (I'm looking at you, TM), then the conservator should ask their legal counsel to have the chancellor enter an order directing the depository to liquidate the ward's account and have the funds placed on deposit with an institution that WILL cooperate in a conservatorship setting. The conservator needs to be able to deal with a bank that doesn't piss itself over conservatorship accounts. Get a 17n court order allowing total withdrawal and find a bank that has balls in its legal dept.

 

[dorndawg]

No, sir. What I am saying is that individual banks respond differently when encountering a general conservatorship order and letters of conservatorship where the funds are on deposit in the name of the ward. Until those generalized court documents are placed in front of the depository's legal counsel, one cannot generally know ahead of time how the bank will respond (or not respond). If a court-appointed conservator encounters a depository that is resistant and unwilling to cooperate and generally being all ***-holish (I'm looking at you, TM), then the conservator should ask their legal counsel to have the chancellor enter an order directing the depository to liquidate the ward's account and have the funds placed on deposit with an institution that WILL cooperate in a conservatorship setting. The conservator needs to be able to deal with a bank that doesn't piss itself over conservatorship accounts. Get a 17n court order allowing total withdrawal and find a bank that has balls in its legal dept.

Ah got it, makes sense. Thanks

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

I definitely agree with this although.... most of us never appreciate or know when that time is the right time and they wait too long. And usually the trust amongst siblings (and people in general) is only skin deep...

I'm fortunate that my family is all on the same page, many are not. My parents not having a pot to piss in certainly makes it easier. Money is the root of all sorts of evil.

 

[NOATLDAWG]

Thanks, Rabbi... THIS is what I was wondering about... And frankly, here is a little more of a tidbit. My father has a loan with this institution. (for the record, it is a S&L in a tiny MS town) Basically, when my attorney called to discuss the IRA, they proceeded to misrepresent that I was wanting to pay off my father's home loan with the IRA funds and they just wanted to be sure that was a good idea. They were seeking to have their loan paid off before they would release any funds...

It all stinks. And worst yet, my attorney used the dreaded 'it would create more work for her' line to excuse her laziness. How long should a conservatorship take?!?!? I am currently on 4 months and it just got filed and approved by the court...

 

[NOATLDAWG]

Oh, i'm just bitching... I am way too far into it to act stupidly now. Just irritated... but thank you for the sounding board!!

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

ETA: Same goes for life insurance. Dealt with somebody recently who was struggling financially because she stupidly listened to her sister, who told her to stop paying premiums on a million dollar life insurance policy for her husband, who had recently suffered a stroke and was bedridden, because the insurance was "too expensive". Saved about $5,000 in premiums and only had to give up a $1M payout that she would have gotten in less than six months. Had a child that I'm sure would have picked up those premiums in order to ensure his mother didn't move in with him, but she didn't consult with him. Hell, I would have paid her premiums in exchange for 1/5th of the eventual payout and would have felt like I was taking advantage of her. Sad thing is her sister didn't have dementia. She was just a moron. I think the mother was just worn down from the stress of dealing with a sick husband and not thinking straight.

Holy moly!

 

[sandwolf.sixpack]

If your family situation is good (you, parents and your siblings are all trustworthy and on the same page)

I'd be very careful with this, especially if there is any money involved. Like you said below.....money is the root of all sorts of evil, and I have seen good families get ripped apart in these situations.

 

[idog]

great idea**

There is the option of not paying the bills, depending on what they are. If he doesn't have a ton of resources (which I'm assuming is the case if the only money is an IRA), you need to conserve his money to pay for necessities, which will be pretty expensive for somebody with dementia. The money in the IRA, depending on where you are, may be protected from judgments. If it's protected, I wouldn't pay for anything except for utilities and a mortgage for right now. I wouldn't pay any outstanding medical bills except from providers you need to keep providing care.

don't pay the people that take care of him? too many people are just like you...but keep paying that cable bill!