Mississippi HB 997

EngDawg

Redshirt
Mar 29, 2016
2,037
4
38
Maybe Germans idk:

https://legiscan.com/MS/text/HB997/id/2248885

“AN ACT TO AMEND SECTION 67-1-41, MISSISSIPPI CODE OF 1972, TO REMOVE THE DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE FROM BEING A WHOLESALE DISTRIBUTOR OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES WITHIN THIS STATE; TO CREATE A NEW SECTION TO BE CODIFIED AS 67-1-42, MISSISSIPPI CODE OF 1972, TO AUTHORIZE A HOLDER OF A WHOLESALER'S PERMIT TO DISTRIBUTE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES THROUGHOUT THIS STATE TO PROPERLY PERMITTED RETAILERS FOR RESALE SUBJECT TO THE PROVISIONS OF THE LOCAL OPTION ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE CONTROL LAW”
 

jethreauxdawg

Heisman
Dec 20, 2010
11,885
17,159
113
I don’t speak legalese

Maybe Germans idk:

https://legiscan.com/MS/text/HB997/id/2248885

“AN ACT TO AMEND SECTION 67-1-41, MISSISSIPPI CODE OF 1972, TO REMOVE THE DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE FROM BEING A WHOLESALE DISTRIBUTOR OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES WITHIN THIS STATE; TO CREATE A NEW SECTION TO BE CODIFIED AS 67-1-42, MISSISSIPPI CODE OF 1972, TO AUTHORIZE A HOLDER OF A WHOLESALER'S PERMIT TO DISTRIBUTE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES THROUGHOUT THIS STATE TO PROPERLY PERMITTED RETAILERS FOR RESALE SUBJECT TO THE PROVISIONS OF THE LOCAL OPTION ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE CONTROL LAW”

But it sounds like someone is gonna get gang raped on Sunday.
 

The Fatboy

Senior
Oct 18, 2005
2,782
744
83
Sounds like getting rid of the ABC but not sure what its being replaced with.

I guess with private wholesalers?
 

WrapItDog

Senior
Aug 23, 2012
4,336
791
113
Mississippi Legislature considers bill to privatize wholesale alcohol distribution


House Bill 997, authored by Rep. Trey Lamar, R-Senatobia, Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, would remove the Department of Revenue from being the state’s wholesale distributor of wine and liquor and instead authorize the issuance of wholesale distribution permits to the business community. The effect of the legislation would be for wine and liquor to be distributed more in line with how beer is distributed in the state by private entities.
The bill would also take the tax currently on wholesale liquor sales from 27.5% to 18%, allowing private wholesalers to mark up their products for profit but also to help ensure against price increases for end consumers.
 

Leeshouldveflanked

All-American
Nov 12, 2016
14,591
9,725
113
So if you buy a bottle at the Liquor Sto that is priced at $50......how much of that is taxes? Don’t you pay sales tax too? Wouldn’t the state would make less $ under the new Bill?
 

Arthur2478

Redshirt
Oct 17, 2010
1,407
2
38
So if you buy a bottle at the Liquor Sto that is priced at $50......how much of that is taxes? Don’t you pay sales tax too? Wouldn’t the state would make less $ under the new Bill?

I would assume dissolving the ABC’s warehousing & distribution divisions would save the state money.

Unless they’re the only efficiently run government entities in the history of Mississippi government. **
 

was21

Senior
May 29, 2007
10,003
635
113
If it means the Mississippi legislature would get out of the whiskey business it would probably be a good move.
 

fedxdog

Sophomore
Dec 7, 2008
549
113
38
1. Competition
2. Better variety at least in wine...right now a winery can only sell in Mississippi if they ship 12 cases per order. Smaller orders will allow better wines.
 

johnson86-1

All-American
Aug 22, 2012
15,178
5,721
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So if you buy a bottle at the Liquor Sto that is priced at $50......how much of that is taxes? Don’t you pay sales tax too? Wouldn’t the state would make less $ under the new Bill?

The state wouldn't really make less money. A good chunk of the "tax" is really just what it costs the state to act as a liquor wholesale. I don't think the wholesaling operation really makes the state money. If you listen to people that defend the operators, they claim the state takes "profits" and doesn't let the ABC reinvest in the warehouse and distribution system, which is why it is both undersized and inefficient now. I don't doubt that's true to an extent, but to the extent the state makes any money off of it, it's pretty minor.

If we do away with the state warehouse and that tax, then prices to the liquor store will rise somewhat as they have to pay somebody to act as wholesaler. Very likely will end up with wholesalers charging less than that because of competition.
 

GloryDawg

Heisman
Mar 3, 2005
20,659
19,414
113
Mississippi needs to be more like Louisiana on some things and the distribution of Alcohol is one of them. We have some really dumb rules. I don't partake in alcohol in any form. No skin off my back one way or another. Just saying. However I am ready for them to get rid of the State income tax.
 

AROB44

Junior
Mar 20, 2008
1,427
264
83
Mississippi needs to be more like Louisiana on some things and the distribution of Alcohol is one of them. We have some really dumb rules. I don't partake in alcohol in any form. No skin off my back one way or another. Just saying. However I am ready for them to get rid of the State income tax.

Do you also want to get rid of all the services that the state provides? Or maybe you don't believe the state provides any services.
 

NWADawg

Senior
May 4, 2016
1,231
732
113
Sounds like getting rid of the ABC but not sure what its being replaced with.

I guess with private wholesalers?

Sounds to me like ABC would still be responsible for permits / licenses and enforcement but removed from distribution and the business side. This doesn't really impact me but I am almost always for smaller govt.
 

johnson86-1

All-American
Aug 22, 2012
15,178
5,721
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Do you also want to get rid of all the services that the state provides? Or maybe you don't believe the state provides any services.

I would be willing to pay more in sales and property tax and car tags to get rid of the state income tax. People don't realize it, but we have a pretty high tax burden. We don't raise a lot of taxes because we're a relatively poor state, but a 5% income tax that kicks in pretty low and a 7% sales tax is a pretty stiff burden. We also spend more than average per person. A lot of that is federally funded and it somewhat makes sense that a poor and unhealthy population would result in a state government that spends more per person, but we probably should be working to get that lower.

So yes, we probably need to trim some stuff. We probably need to shift more taxes to consumption than earning. And we need to bite the bullet and do something to spread the pain of PERS. Everyday we go by without recognizing that benefits are going to be cut is a day that makes the final pain both worse and more inequitably shared. Probably should start by enacting a special income tax on PERS benefits based on how much more a person is taking out than was put in on their behalf.
 

TrueMaroonGrind

All-Conference
Jan 6, 2017
4,129
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I would assume dissolving the ABC’s warehousing & distribution divisions would save the state money.

Unless they’re the only efficiently run government entities in the history of Mississippi government. **

This begs the question, why in the heck is our state government in the liquor wholesale business? Maybe it was a post prohibition thing, but this just seems a waste of resources, focus and time for all involved. Are we the only state who has this enacted?
 

GloryDawg

Heisman
Mar 3, 2005
20,659
19,414
113
Do you also want to get rid of all the services that the state provides? Or maybe you don't believe the state provides any services.

We have the Lotto, Casinos, sales tax, tobacco tax, gas tax, income tax and property tax. Mississippi has every tax know to man.*** Taking the state income tax away would put more money in our pockets to buy stuff generating all the other tax revenue. The Governor has already said they are going to start the process of phasing out the state income tax over the next ten years.
 

mstateglfr

All-American
Feb 24, 2008
16,886
6,695
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We have the Lotto, Casinos, sales tax, tobacco tax, gas tax, income tax and property tax. Mississippi has every tax know to man.*** Taking the state income tax away would put more money in our pockets to buy stuff generating all the other tax revenue. The Governor has already said they are going to start the process of phasing out the state income tax over the next ten years.

Taxes have to come from somewhere. If the state needs $500mm in taxes then it needs $500mm in taxes, regardless of where that comes from. If one avenue is dropped, then another needs to open or the other existing avenues need to be increased. So its basically a wash.
At an individual level, what is kept and what is dropped will have different effects on various socioeconomic groups. Some will benefit and some will suffer.

All this should be known already, its not exactly groundbreaking. Point is though- the overall amount still needs to be collected. When proposals for changing the collection system are suggested, I always wonder what about the new system would benefit the group supporting it. People rarely support tax systems that will hurt them. So who is the increased burden being pushed to?
 

FISHDAWG

Redshirt
Dec 27, 2009
2,077
0
36
Mississippi needs to be more like Louisiana on some things and the distribution of Alcohol is one of them. We have some really dumb rules. I don't partake in alcohol in any form. No skin off my back one way or another. Just saying. However I am ready for them to get rid of the State income tax.

It really doesn't make sense that if you want a bottle of Liquor and a sixpack of beer or cigarettes then you have to go to two different businesses. Cigarettes and beer can't be sold in a liquor store which makes no sense.
 

GloryDawg

Heisman
Mar 3, 2005
20,659
19,414
113
Taxes have to come from somewhere. If the state needs $500mm in taxes then it needs $500mm in taxes, regardless of where that comes from. If one avenue is dropped, then another needs to open or the other existing avenues need to be increased. So its basically a wash.
At an individual level, what is kept and what is dropped will have different effects on various socioeconomic groups. Some will benefit and some will suffer.

All this should be known already, its not exactly groundbreaking. Point is though- the overall amount still needs to be collected. When proposals for changing the collection system are suggested, I always wonder what about the new system would benefit the group supporting it. People rarely support tax systems that will hurt them. So who is the increased burden being pushed to?

Historically tax cuts has generated more revenue for goverment. Put more money in my pocket I will spend it. They will make up the difference in sales tax. I could live with sales tax increase. I can chose to spend or not. Just my opinion. The Governor did say they are going to phase out the state income tax. I guess the Lotto is generating good bit of money allowing them to do it.
 

patdog

Heisman
May 28, 2007
60,511
31,742
113
We already have the 7th highest sales tax burden in the country and you want to raise a regressive tax on the poorest state in the country. Unbelievable.
 

AROB44

Junior
Mar 20, 2008
1,427
264
83
We already have the 7th highest sales tax burden in the country and you want to raise a regressive tax on the poorest state in the country. Unbelievable.

Don't know about Mississippi, but here in Alabama items purchased with EBT (food stamps) have no sales tax added to them.
 

xxxWalkTheDawg

Redshirt
Oct 21, 2005
4,262
0
25
Do you also want to get rid of all the services that the state provides? Or maybe you don't believe the state provides any services.

You do know there are other states with no state income tax that manage to continue to provide services don’t you? One of them is to our immediate north.
 

mstateglfr

All-American
Feb 24, 2008
16,886
6,695
113
Historically tax cuts has generated more revenue for goverment. Put more money in my pocket I will spend it. They will make up the difference in sales tax. I could live with sales tax increase. I can chose to spend or not. Just my opinion. The Governor did say they are going to phase out the state income tax. I guess the Lotto is generating good bit of money allowing them to do it.

Right, so this would push the burden off onto others who often dont have as much overall income and therefore they have less spending power. Im not saying your view is wrong, I am simply saying you should recognize and acknowledge that your decision would benefit you and financially hurt others.

There is a minimum amount that all households must spend to realistically exist. Basically, add up basic housing, transportation, food, clothing, healthcare, and communication. Lets say this total is $8000 per year. You want to increase the tax burden on that $8000 that all households spend. This, as a percent of household income, disproportionally affect lower income households.

Again, Im not saying your view is wrong. I am pointing this because it seems some in life dont recognize taxes that help them will hurt others. I think it is important to understand that when I benefit with taxes, it is often because others are hurt.
 

patdog

Heisman
May 28, 2007
60,511
31,742
113
Pretty sure that's Federal law. MS and AL are 2 of the few states that charge the full sales tax on groceries though, and MS has the highest grocery sales tax rate in the nation.
 

GloryDawg

Heisman
Mar 3, 2005
20,659
19,414
113
Right, so this would push the burden off onto others who often dont have as much overall income and therefore they have less spending power. Im not saying your view is wrong, I am simply saying you should recognize and acknowledge that your decision would benefit you and financially hurt others.

There is a minimum amount that all households must spend to realistically exist. Basically, add up basic housing, transportation, food, clothing, healthcare, and communication. Lets say this total is $8000 per year. You want to increase the tax burden on that $8000 that all households spend. This, as a percent of household income, disproportionally affect lower income households.

Again, Im not saying your view is wrong. I am pointing this because it seems some in life dont recognize taxes that help them will hurt others. I think it is important to understand that when I benefit with taxes, it is often because others are hurt.

The already selects the tax on different things. Restaurant tax is 9%. Car sales tax is 3 to 5%. Sales tax on groceries is 3%. If you use snap there is no sales tax on groceries. There is no tax on medical. They have tax free days on clothes. They can customize the sales tax to help lower income people. If you can afford a 200.00 pair of running shoes than you should be able to afford a higher sales tax. If you buy a 40.00 pair of shoes maybe pay no sales tax. I can assure you if they got rid of the state income tax that would put a lot of money in people's pockets to spend, spending generates revenue for the goverment and creates jobs.
 
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johnson86-1

All-American
Aug 22, 2012
15,178
5,721
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We already have the 7th highest sales tax burden in the country and you want to raise a regressive tax on the poorest state in the country. Unbelievable.

In the poorest state in the nation, the poor are going to be taxed. There are relative strengths and weaknesses to income taxes versus sales/use taxes and to having one or the other versus both. But this is just a ridiculous response. It's not unbelievable that people would recognize the strengths of a sales tax regime versus having a sales and income tax.

There is pretty good evidence that states that rely on sales and use taxes and property taxes to the exclusion of income taxes do relatively well compared to states reliant on income taxes. It's good for the poor of a state when there are more jobs available, there is more population growth, and the state is just generally more prosperous. It's really more important to the poor than to the people that are already doing well. People could just as easily say it's unbelievable that you'd want the poorest state in the nation to keep a system that would result in more people being poor over time.
 

8dog

All-American
Feb 23, 2008
15,095
7,322
113
How does TN do it? Are they making it up
thru their business excise tax? Like someone said, you get the money from somewhere
 

johnson86-1

All-American
Aug 22, 2012
15,178
5,721
113
Right, so this would push the burden off onto others who often dont have as much overall income and therefore they have less spending power. Im not saying your view is wrong, I am simply saying you should recognize and acknowledge that your decision would benefit you and financially hurt others.

There is a minimum amount that all households must spend to realistically exist. Basically, add up basic housing, transportation, food, clothing, healthcare, and communication. Lets say this total is $8000 per year. You want to increase the tax burden on that $8000 that all households spend. This, as a percent of household income, disproportionally affect lower income households.

Again, Im not saying your view is wrong. I am pointing this because it seems some in life dont recognize taxes that help them will hurt others. I think it is important to understand that when I benefit with taxes, it is often because others are hurt.

That is a fair and very reasonable post. But I think the other thing to recognize is that we spend a lot of time pretending that we can dictate tax burden while ignoring the inefficiencies we create. Moving tax revenues from Sales tax to income tax doesn't necessarily move the burden from poor to rich. Nor does moving from income tax to sales tax mean you are raising the burden to the poor. It's going to be very product/service specific, but in general a good chunk of the burden is probably going to be born by the poor regardless. Since a sales/use tax is so much more efficient, it's worth really considering whether it increases the tax burden on the poor that much.

Someone with a high income presumably has that high income because they have market power. If you tell them you are going to raise the cost of them making income, they can presumably use the same market power that allows them to get a high income to also pass on a good chunk of those costs to others. So you might have the choice of collecting taxes from, say, medical services by levying a special sales tax on the service charge, or you might be able to levy a special income tax on the provider. Even though the sales tax looks to be born 100% by the customer and the income tax looks to be born 100% by the provider, the market dynamics are going to have a lot to say about who ultimately pays that tax.

A similar thing happens with ad valorem taxes on rentals. If the housing market is generally in balance for a community, we can raise property taxes and that tax is physically paid by the landlord, not his tenants. That's what most communities do. They don't charge a sales tax on rent; they charge an ad valorem tax against the owner (generally b/c it's easy to collect) and often they charge a higher ad valorem rate for landlords (either b/c the people in favor of it understand the economics and want to tax renters, who are more likely to be poorer, or because they don't understand the economics and think they are sticking it to the rich landlords). In reality, in a relatively short period of time, the landlords are going to pass that tax on to their tenants. Mostly, tenants are going to bear the entire burden of it because people will cut back on other things. To the extent they can't, rents will come down some for lower end units, and that will presumably slightly impact the number of rentals that come on the market in the future. (Or maybe as an alternative they will cut consumption by putting more residents in a given unit, in which their quality of life will come down and landlords will get less money.)

It's really hard to figure out who is ultimately going to bear the burden of that tax, but unless you are looking at a shrinking community, housing can't be provided for less than it costs over the long term, so assuming alternative investments keep roughly the same returns, it seems likely that the costs are going to be paid by tenants and not come out of the returns of landlords. Of course there are lot of frictions, distortions, imperfections and irrationalities in the market, so that may or may not be exactly true, but it's roughly what you'd expect.
 
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Russ Wheeler

Redshirt
Aug 3, 2020
2,430
0
0
Check the property tax in Tn, Texas and Fla.....
BOOM. While the state tax is what shows on the surface, the overall tax and COL burden will be higher in those state, vs. MS and AL. This is something is often overlooked by the shallow thinkers.

I have lived in all those states you mention sans Texas. The cheapest to most expensive states to live are in this order: MS-AL-TN-FL. There's not really a debate.
 

SheltonChoked

Redshirt
Feb 27, 2008
1,786
0
0
Anyone that wants a better wine, liquor, and beer selection in Mississippi should be for this.

I'm not sure what the downside is.
 

SheltonChoked

Redshirt
Feb 27, 2008
1,786
0
0
I would be willing to pay more in sales and property tax and car tags to get rid of the state income tax. People don't realize it, but we have a pretty high tax burden. We don't raise a lot of taxes because we're a relatively poor state, but a 5% income tax that kicks in pretty low and a 7% sales tax is a pretty stiff burden. We also spend more than average per person. A lot of that is federally funded and it somewhat makes sense that a poor and unhealthy population would result in a state government that spends more per person, but we probably should be working to get that lower.

So yes, we probably need to trim some stuff. We probably need to shift more taxes to consumption than earning. And we need to bite the bullet and do something to spread the pain of PERS. Everyday we go by without recognizing that benefits are going to be cut is a day that makes the final pain both worse and more inequitably shared. Probably should start by enacting a special income tax on PERS benefits based on how much more a person is taking out than was put in on their behalf.

LOL. What is the property tax rate there? Government Fees? How much of the state income is from the Feds?

You should try living in another state if you think MS is a high tax burden state....
 

WilCoDawg

All-Conference
Sep 6, 2012
5,264
3,654
113
Sales tax is 9.75%. Then there’s the gas tax which is astronomical. But our car tags aren’t outrageous like Mississippi’s.
 

Duke Humphrey

All-Conference
Oct 3, 2013
2,771
1,931
113
That’s not necessarily true. When you just look at state portion, yes, but when you combine the local sales tax, Mississippi is right in middle of the pack when it comes to total sales tax burden. The only local sales taxes collected in MS are limited to prepared food and beverage and hotels.

Our total sales tax burden is much less when compared to our neighboring states

https://taxfoundation.org/2020-sales-taxes/
 

8dog

All-American
Feb 23, 2008
15,095
7,322
113
From what I can tell Tn state portion of sales tax is 7% just like MS. I dont think property taxes come close to accounting for the state income tax difference. And dont property taxes go to the county anyway? I really dont know and am asking
 

Russ Wheeler

Redshirt
Aug 3, 2020
2,430
0
0
I have heard that TN was friendlier to white collar businesses (maybe just due to income tax i.e. attracting workers, but could be some other business tax too), while MS was better for warehousing, which was why all those warehouses are moving to Olive Branch. I do not know the difference in the taxes which would create that situation, though.

I don't think anyone would argue that TN's tax system is likely better, but it's still cheaper to live in MS. But that comes with living in a nicer area, which TN is, at present.
 

WilCoDawg

All-Conference
Sep 6, 2012
5,264
3,654
113
True, but 9.75% is pretty much what everyone around the state pays in state and local sales tax. Then there’s the usual extra taxes one may pay at restaurants for liquor and any other tax they can hide from you until the bill comes. This pays off for TN in that tourists pay so much when they drive here and when they stay here. The tourist industry just isn’t as strong in Mississippi obviously and the state doesn’t profit from it like Tennessee does.
 

Cooterpoot

Redshirt
Aug 29, 2012
4,239
2
0
Eliminate ABC as the controller and distributor. Then, Eliminate dry county laws. Allow each municipality, regardless of size, to vote on it. Then open up internet purchases like most states allow. Sell certain products in the grocery stores. This **** isn't hard you bunch of backwards assed Mississippians!
 

mount lefroy

Redshirt
Feb 10, 2013
2,501
0
36
Do you also want to get rid of all the services that the state provides? Or maybe you don't believe the state provides any services.

Reason isn't going to work. Besides, paying taxes at a cash register just feels better even if people wind up paying more.
 

Go Budaw

Redshirt
Aug 22, 2012
7,321
0
36
I would be willing to pay more in sales and property tax and car tags to get rid of the state income tax. People don't realize it, but we have a pretty high tax burden. We don't raise a lot of taxes because we're a relatively poor state, but a 5% income tax that kicks in pretty low and a 7% sales tax is a pretty stiff burden. We also spend more than average per person. A lot of that is federally funded and it somewhat makes sense that a poor and unhealthy population would result in a state government that spends more per person, but we probably should be working to get that lower.

So yes, we probably need to trim some stuff. We probably need to shift more taxes to consumption than earning. And we need to bite the bullet and do something to spread the pain of PERS. Everyday we go by without recognizing that benefits are going to be cut is a day that makes the final pain both worse and more inequitably shared. Probably should start by enacting a special income tax on PERS benefits based on how much more a person is taking out than was put in on their behalf.

17th highest overall tax burden in the country. That’s what happens when you have the highest percentage of people who pay no income tax or property tax....the folks in the normal tax brackets have to cover the difference.
 
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