MBB History Question

Section114

Junior
Jan 13, 2012
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What were the circumstances around Tom Young leaving? I was young and the best recollection I have is he left on his own to go Old Dominion. This seemed odd since I always viewed RU as the better program. Was he pushed out? Was it over money?

Really interested in hearing other fans memory of this.
 

hinson32

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Jul 29, 2005
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My opinion only is that Tom was kind of ready for semi "retirement" and he saw A10-Big East situation killing his recruiting. He was furious with us turning down the BE twice. Don't forget he did not leave us with a roster full of talent.
 

wheezer

Heisman
Jun 3, 2001
169,833
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remember this was pre-internet....his leaving shocked most of the fans, no inkling of it happening.

my best guess is that he saw the writing on the wall....we could no longer recruit against big east teams coming into NJ......seton hall was getting more and more of the first team all staters, when previously RU would get a decent share

aside from that, we were also slipping down in the Atlantic 8 or10, whatever...and the league was taking more and more of a back seat to the emerging big east

had we jumped to the big east at the first or second invite, I am fairly certain he would have stayed on.....the New York market area loved St Johns, and of course Syracuse was always a very good
northeastern team.......

we really should have gone with them.....
This post was edited on 3/1 9:06 AM by wheezer
 

Sideline20

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Jul 27, 2001
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Exactly what wheezer said. The part that really hurt was Young left in August of 1985. The ODU coach resigned in July and the search took a month and a half. Tom was frustrated that Fred had turned down the Big East twice and recruiting really fell off after that. After TY left Fred had to find a coach as the first semester was starting and in came Craig Littlepage.
 

Section114

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I appreciate the insight. Really crazy to think where we might be had Fred said yes to the BE the first or second time.

Can we go back that far to blame him for where we are today?
 

RUMike410

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Apr 21, 2013
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What was FG's logic for turning down the BE? Was it different for the first and second rejection?
 

RC85

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Section114 posted on 3/1/2015...


I appreciate the insight. Really crazy to think where we might be had Fred said yes to the BE the first or second time.
Can we go back that far to blame him for where we are today?
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Yes we can blame Gruninger, Pres Bloustein and the rest of BOG for declining the Big East invitation. Adding salt to the wound is that SHU took our place. Blame for the RU MBB program starvation goes all-around after that from New Brunswick to Trenton with the harsh state funding cutbacks that were borne by RU major sports initially, and then unfortunately MBB alone when it was do-or-die for football to either stay Div 1 level or return to the Lehigh-Bucknell-Holy Cross leagues.

Plenty of rumors indicated that RU got itself caught-up in the Penn St-Syracuse-Pitt football power feuds at the time and was convinced by Paterno & Co. to stand as an independent with PSU unless PSU was invited into the same conference. Supposedly PSU would bring RU with it into the Big10 if an all-sports Eastern Conference league didn't work out. Lots of intra-fighting between the 3 eastern football powers at the time (PSU/Pitt/'Cuse) and RU got left out in the cold of course by PSU when it went to the Big10 in '90 after PSU was not invited into the Big East to join Pitt, Syracuse, BC, etc. Other rumors had the NYC(SJU)-Philly(Villanova)-Washington DC (G'town) contingent blocking PSU fearing the growing power of football in the BE w/Penn St aboard.

MBB at RU has yet to recover and that's beyond frustrating given we are located in such fertile H.S. basketball recruiting territory in front of the media capital of the world.
 

wheezer

Heisman
Jun 3, 2001
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Fred G was instrumental in forming the atlantic eight.....I think he was too prideful and had too much emotionally invested in the A 8 to accept such a quick invite to the newly formed big east.....

me, as a fan, was upset that a few years after the big east was formed, several big east coaches stated openly they would welcome Rutgers, but still fred remained loyal to the A8....he just could not do it

truth is, fred had the vision, he had it right, but could not get the two most important eastern teams ......

if he had enticed st johns and/or Syracuse to the atlantic eight, it would have been the premier eastern league.....the future big east teams saw the early success of the atlantic eight and knew that it was a good formula for success

edit:...and as mentioned by another above, the thought of an all sport conference was kept alive with Penn state being aboard early on.....
This post was edited on 3/1 4:02 PM by wheezer
 

jellyman_rivals307848

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Originally posted by RUMike410:
What was FG's logic for turning down the BE? Was it different for the first and second rejection?
I do not recall turning down the Big East twice.

RU did turn down the Big East initially, true enough - and at the time it made a lot of sense, though in retrospect it turned out badly.

RU had split from the ECAC in 1977 or 1978, along with 7 other teams to form the Eastern Eight (though it may have been called the Eastern Athletic Conference initially). The VISION was that the ECAC was too fragmented (true), and that a more coherent group would be able to garner more TV (also true). But the CORE vision was that the Eastern Eight would be the beginning of an Eastern ALL SPORTS conference, wit Pitt and Penn State anchoring the football - joined by RU, WVU, Temple, and if Penn State and Pitt were in, then Syracuse and BC would HAVE to also join, just because of football. The basketball would be anchored by RU (the most consistent and best NY Metropolitan basketball team, rivalled only by St. Johns at that time), plus WVU, Syracuse, Villanova (charter member of the Eastern Eight) and Temple.

But though Penn State joined the Eastern Eight, led by Paterno, Penn State delayed and initially rejected joining an Eastern football conference ... at that time Pitt had actually AGREED to join an Eastern football conference. But you could not have an Eastern football conference without BOTH Pitt and Penn State.

So when the Big East was put together, RU was invited as the NJ school to partner with St. Johns as the NY school (RU's big basketball rival - as RU was St. John's biggest rival at that time) and Villanova as the Philly school. Villanova bolted the Eastern Eight, which led to the Eastern 8 inviting 3 teams (though maybe 4, as Penn State may have left to go independent), becoming the Atlantic 10.

A few years later - in the early 1980's, after Penn State failed to gain any traction as an independent on all non-football sports, Penn State came back into the Atlantic 10 fold, and there was again momentum for an Eastern all sports conference, including football ... and Penn State was finally accepting if this. But the Big East was really gaining momentum, and in a brilliant move destroyed the Eastern football conference ... the Big East knew if Pitt and Penn State were both agreeing to an Eastern football conference, the Big East would lose Syracuse and BC - and they could not afford to do so, especially they could not afford to lose Syracuse. So they invited Pitt into the Big East - remember Pitt's basketball program was AWFUL at that time ... and I mean truly awful ... and Pitt was the 9th team to be in the Big East (9 teams never made any sense).

So that scotched the Eastern All Sports conference including football, for a long time, until they cobbled together Miami and V. Tech into the Big East for all sports, and added RU, Temple, WVU just for football. That move was precipitated by Penn State being invited into the Big Ten, and Penn State making one last effort to be part of an Eastern All Sports (including football) conference. The Big East instea dof inviting Penn State, RU, WVU into the Big East and forming a n Eastern football league as part of this, instead invited Miami and Virginia Tech into the Big East for all sports, and invited RU, WVU and Temple to be football only members ... cutting out Penn State.
 

RC85

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SHU fought tooth-and-nail to block RU MBB into the Big East when UoM joined for all-sports and RU, WVU, Va Tech and Temple for football-only in' 91. 'Nova blocked Temple joining for hoops then too.
 

wheezer

Heisman
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RU never had a formal second invitation as far as we know, but there was a period of time when the big east coaches publically said they would welcome RU....this wound up in the newspapers.....

Since there was a lot of movements with teams between leagues it was generally understood RU would be accepted in the big east

This post was edited on 3/1 4:46 PM by wheezer
 

RC85

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wheezer posted on 3/1/2015...

RU never had a formal second invitation as
far as we know, but there was a period of time when the big east coaches
publically said they would welcome RU....this wound up in the
newspapers.....
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Not a SHU coach
 

wheezer

Heisman
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Originally posted by RC85:
wheezer posted on 3/1/2015...

RU never had a formal second invitation as
far as we know, but there was a period of time when the big east coaches
publically said they would welcome RU....this wound up in the
newspapers.....
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Not a SHU coach
Of course not, but most believe we would have had enough support
 

Racpack

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Jan 21, 2012
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The person most responsible for the state of athletics at Rutgers is Fred Grunninger.

This post was edited on 3/1 10:30 PM by Racpack
 

wheezer

Heisman
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Originally posted by Racpack:
The person most responsible for the state of athletics at Rutgers is Fred Grunninger.

This post was edited on 3/1 10:30 PM by Racpack
Anybody who goes back that far as a fan would have to agree.....I have often thought that if RU had accepted the offer when the big east was formed, we would have been a national power at times, with a chance at winning it all.....not too far fetched since the Hall had their day
 

ecojew

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"Fred G was instrumental in forming the atlantic
eight.....I think he was too prideful and had too much emotionally
invested in the A 8 to accept such a quick invite to the newly formed
big east....."

This is true but the initial mistake he made was to push through the formation of the Eastern 8 (later to become the A10) without the right teams in it! When St. John's and SU - RU's two biggest rivals at the time - declined to join Gruninger's conference, then it would have been smarter to stay an independent. That would have left us available when the BE was formed a few years later. But to involve RU in 1976-77 with Duquesne, GW, and UMass (along with Pitt, WVU, PSU, and Villanova) really didn't make much sense. Pitt and Villanova had the good sense to withdraw to join the BE, and PSU went back to being independent for a few years, but RU and WVU were stuck.

In 1981, Pitt's football team was #1 or #2 for much of the season. PSU was trying to get them to join an all-sports conference. But during that season, Pitt played at BC, at RU (at Giant's Stadium), and at Temple. The Pitt AD afterward stated that he saw nothing in visiting those 3 schools that made him want to join with them in an all-sports conference so Pitt remained an independent (as did everyone else by default) and joined the BE for basketball. I think it was that same year that the BE voted against admitting PSU. Had that vote gone differently, a BE football conference might have been started at some point in the 80s, once football revenue clearly began to outstrip basketball revenues, which would have forced schools like Pitt, SU, and BC to join a football conference as they eventually did in 1991.

The sad result of all this is that Fred Gruninger was the best thing that ever happened to SHU basketball while presiding over the decline of RU men's hoops.
 

bac2therac

Hall of Famer
Jul 30, 2001
247,223
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Originally posted by wheezer:


Originally posted by Racpack:
The person most responsible for the state of athletics at Rutgers is Fred Grunninger.


This post was edited on 3/1 10:30 PM by Racpack
Anybody who goes back that far as a fan would have to agree.....I have often thought that if RU had accepted the offer when the big east was formed, we would have been a national power at times, with a chance at winning it all.....not too far fetched since the Hall had their day
without question RU would have been a national power at some point, how long and how strong the program would be is up for debate but EVERY single school in the BE rose to national prominence. RU very well could have reached UConn levels. and yes most of our troubles can be traced back to Fred Grunninger...a horrific AD
 

GoodOl'Rutgers

Heisman
Sep 11, 2006
123,974
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While it killed us... ultimately Fred G. was correct.. the Big East did not work for a large state school that was interested in football. Forget about Rutgers.. the Big East hamstrung Syracuse, Pitt and BC football.

Its a damn shame that JoePA/PSU and Pitt/Cuse set up a situation where a true eastern all-sports conference could not be formed. Rutgers basketball was destroyed in that fight.. and Fred G was largely responsible for that for not joining the Big East.. but he was not responsible for the situation that lead to having to make that decision.
 

wheezer

Heisman
Jun 3, 2001
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Originally posted by ecojew:
"Fred G was instrumental in forming the atlantic
eight.....I think he was too prideful and had too much emotionally
invested in the A 8 to accept such a quick invite to the newly formed
big east....."

This is true but the initial mistake he made was to push through the formation of the Eastern 8 (later to become the A10) without the right teams in it! When St. John's and SU - RU's two biggest rivals at the time - declined to join Gruninger's conference, then it would have been smarter to stay an independent. That would have left us available when the BE was formed a few years later. But to involve RU in 1976-77 with Duquesne, GW, and UMass (along with Pitt, WVU, PSU, and Villanova) really didn't make much sense. Pitt and Villanova had the good sense to withdraw to join the BE, and PSU went back to being independent for a few years, but RU and WVU were stuck.

In 1981, Pitt's football team was #1 or #2 for much of the season. PSU was trying to get them to join an all-sports conference. But during that season, Pitt played at BC, at RU (at Giant's Stadium), and at Temple. The Pitt AD afterward stated that he saw nothing in visiting those 3 schools that made him want to join with them in an all-sports conference so Pitt remained an independent (as did everyone else by default) and joined the BE for basketball. I think it was that same year that the BE voted against admitting PSU. Had that vote gone differently, a BE football conference might have been started at some point in the 80s, once football revenue clearly began to outstrip basketball revenues, which would have forced schools like Pitt, SU, and BC to join a football conference as they eventually did in 1991.

The sad result of all this is that Fred Gruninger was the best thing that ever happened to SHU basketball while presiding over the decline of RU men's hoops.





the big east formed because those teams saw the early success of the eastern eight (atlantic 10).....you could bet your bottom dollar that st johns and Syracuse were invited
to join the eastern eight, but were not ready to do it.

if it were not for the eastern eight, the big east might not have happened for years and years......

give Fred credit for one thing, and one thing only....he knew the northeast needed a conference....he went out and with a few others, made it happen...

unfortunately he could not get the other two major players to sign up.....he should have kept working on adding them instead of adding other northeast teams that had little value.

he also knew it needed an all sports conference.....eventually both things did happen....he had the vision of a basketball conference, then an all sports conference.....but made
bad decisions in trying to get RU in the best place possible.
This post was edited on 3/2 10:32 AM by wheezer
 
Jan 12, 2015
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Gruninger was a complete fool for holding RU out of the Big East because of JoPA's phony promises of RU football hitching some conference ride with PSU football. RU was playing an Ivy league schedule then-hardly anything the Big 10 would want. Gruninger was duped. Pitt and 'Nova got out of the A-8/10 in time to elevate their MBB programs, how Gruninger screwed that up has to be one of the (probably THE) all-time college A.D. blunders.
 

ecojew

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"the big east formed because those teams saw the early success of the eastern eight (atlantic 10)"

I disagree with this statement for two major reasons:

1. the EAA was not a success - that's why two of its four best programs were so quick to leave it. It lacked real rivalries aside from Pitt-WVU, though RU-Nova could have developed into one. It's initial tournament at the Philadelphia Spectrum failed to draw more than 5000 fans, even with Villanova and RU there.

2. the real motivation for the creation of the BE and why SU and St. John's to join it was an NCAA ruling that teams in "conferences" that had NCAA auto-bids actually had to play one another during the regular season. That meant that St. John's would end up having lots of games against its ECAC Metro mates like LIU, St. Francis of Brooklyn and of PA, Wagner, St. Peter's, etc. while SU would end up playing several smaller programs in its ECAC upstate and DC/MD area, like a Loyola, American and others. The thought of having home and homes with programs like that drove several schools together to put together a conference that would have better rivalries.

#2 coincided with Dave Gavitt's vision of a new conference whose members would bring in all of the major eastern TV markets. PC already had the Providence CC, with 12,000 seats to fill and it wasn't gonna fill 'em for games against ECAC New England mates Maine, UNH, UVM, Northeastern, BU, etc.

So Gavitt made his move and the rest, as they say, is history. And as most of us here know very well, PC people have no real interest in football, so he was sure to include a preemptive move that might have taken BC and SU out of the BE, by inviting Pitt into it. And it was quite possibly he that engineered the vote to keep PSU out of it.

Had Gruninger not rushed into forming the EAA, RU, with its newly opened RAC, would have faced the same kind of schedule as St. John's in the ECAC metro, whose championship we actually won the first two times it was played (at MSG). So in 1978 (?), when Gavitt offered an invitation to RU to join the BE, RU would have jumped at the chance. But instead of having home games against SU, St. John's, Villanova, UConn, G-town, and BC each year, RU fans were treated to GW, Duquesne, UMass (who was horrible for years till Calipari came along), and then a bit later, URI, St. Bonaventure, and a not-so bad St. Joe's and quite good Temple. But our opponents lacked the pizzazz of the BE and for the most part, till Chaney elevated Temple to #1 in the nation, A-10 teams were almost NEVER on TV. TV was dominated by BE games and it looked as though the BE would destroy the rest of eastern basketball.

Typing all this has actually saddened me. These are all bad memories for me. RU basketball used to be my passion at a point in time when RU football was just a social event. But nowadays, I barely follow the team. Like many here, I believe that things could have turned out much differently.
 

RC85

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Just curious about how inviting Pitt into BE preemptively kept BC and Syracuse from leaving the conference--BC bolted as soon as the ACC offer came. Also wonder if Penn St, the center of gravity of an eastern football league, was toying with Pitt, Cuse, etc. to jockey for the Big10 invite all along. We know the bball-only schools never wanted Penn St because the football schools would overtake them in a heartbeat. 'Cuse was widely believed to have been the deciding vote against Penn St-although the school has since denied it and they are of course very truthful (
). Very interesting back stories. Gruninger was so far in over his head with the big boys...
This post was edited on 3/2 7:35 PM by RC85
 

wheezer

Heisman
Jun 3, 2001
169,833
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Originally posted by ecojew:
"the big east formed because those teams saw the early success of the eastern eight (atlantic 10)"

I disagree with this statement for two major reasons:

1. the EAA was not a success - that's why two of its four best programs were so quick to leave it. It lacked real rivalries aside from Pitt-WVU, though RU-Nova could have developed into one. It's initial tournament at the Philadelphia Spectrum failed to draw more than 5000 fans, even with Villanova and RU there.

2. the real motivation for the creation of the BE and why SU and St. John's to join it was an NCAA ruling that teams in "conferences" that had NCAA auto-bids actually had to play one another during the regular season. That meant that St. John's would end up having lots of games against its ECAC Metro mates like LIU, St. Francis of Brooklyn and of PA, Wagner, St. Peter's, etc. while SU would end up playing several smaller programs in its ECAC upstate and DC/MD area, like a Loyola, American and others. The thought of having home and homes with programs like that drove several schools together to put together a conference that would have better rivalries.

#2 coincided with Dave Gavitt's vision of a new conference whose members would bring in all of the major eastern TV markets. PC already had the Providence CC, with 12,000 seats to fill and it wasn't gonna fill 'em for games against ECAC New England mates Maine, UNH, UVM, Northeastern, BU, etc.

So Gavitt made his move and the rest, as they say, is history. And as most of us here know very well, PC people have no real interest in football, so he was sure to include a preemptive move that might have taken BC and SU out of the BE, by inviting Pitt into it. And it was quite possibly he that engineered the vote to keep PSU out of it.

---------------------------------------

we will have to disagree then.....the eastern eight had a tv contract that was enough for other eastern teams to notice, something they did not have....it had a moderate following, not a great success, but decent enough

Of course teams like Nova jumped to the big east as soon as they were offered....a blind man could see that the combination of teams in the big east would far surpass what the
eastern eight could ever do....

from the moment I heard about the big east I wanted RU to jump...everybody but Fred did

gavitt did make some very good early moves.....

but remember, before this, all eastern teams did absolutely nothing for decades......then the eastern eight came along and presto, several
years later the big east is formed

it was no coincidence, and I still credit the eastern eight for starting the idea of the big east.....the eastern eight showed that northeastern basketball needed leagues, and the
leagues would work and make money for those teams included

I am in no way suggesting the eastern eight was near the level of the big east

This post was edited on 3/2 9:06 PM by wheezer