Interesting data from a German antibody test study

codeDawg

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Nov 13, 2007
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https://www.technologyreview.com/20...ow-immune-to-covid-19-in-one-town-in-germany/

**This study is in German, so I only read the summary. It's also not likely to have been peer reviewed yet, so grains of salt with everything below.

Gangelt, a small town in Germany was hit hard with the virus after a Feb carnival celebration. The population is small, under 12K people, but they did an antibody test and found that 14% of the population currently either actively had the virus (>2%) or currently had antibodies. They also determined the estimated death rate to be .37%.

Now, what are some of the inferences from this?
  • A 14% infection rate after a widespread breakout is not encouraging if you are waiting for a 40-60% herd immunity rate to open things back up. That rate still means a full flare up would still be possible, though some the most vulnerable (pre-existing conditions) and susceptible (first responders and public workers) have already contracted it. Any tick up in immunity as a population will slow the rate at which it can spread. We just don't have data on how this works yet.
  • The estimated death rate can't be directly compared to the death rate for flu because it includes non-symptomatic people. That same rate for flu is estimated somewhere between .3-6%, but there haven't been any real studies on that and this is only one sample from one location. Still, it's encouraging.

The scary part about this virus isn't how deadly it is, but how quickly and easily it spreads. I'm worried about my 92 y/o grandfather. The flu would probably kill him, but he can take a vaccine and the transmissibility of the flu because many people have taken a vaccine and the shorter duration of contagiousness make it much less concerning.

The US should be doing much more of this testing. I've been hesitant about the implications of this data, but without studies like this you can't measure what's really going on in the world, and more importantly you can't inform models that give us a true picture of what's going on.

Unfortunately immunity is the only way out of this. That's either herd immunity or vaccine. A vaccine is 8+ months away, IF the current prospects work. If not, it could be longer. That means we're going to have to open up less dense areas of the country with restrictions in place. We've been able to avoid NYC scenarios in most of the country, though we still have a few more weeks until peak.

What does open up look like? It's hard to say. Vulnerable people clearly don't need to be going to restaurants. Grandma has no business going to church for a while, even if the doors are open, but areas with low transmission rates either by density or by herd immunity (requires testing!) should be able to open offices and some other less essential businesses.

I think we're a ways off from being able to make intelligent decisions, but collecting data like this helps the smart guys get there.
 

engie

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May 29, 2011
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Antibodies testing will be available any day now here to the general public for a minimal fee. With my job coming back online(refocus on military and outdoor covid sites rather than athletics) and the amount of travel generally involved, I’m hoping I get the Antibodies test soon, and it’s positive, so I can go back to work without constantly having to walk on eggshells. I’d say there’s a 20ish% chance of this.
 

DeltaChicagoDog

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Sep 30, 2018
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Thanks for sharing the results of this study. It's tricky trying to get a handle on finding actual empirical data that isn't a rehash or hasn't been filtered through one media outlet or another.
 

Trojanbulldog19

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Aug 25, 2014
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watched a think earlier today about Korea keeping on top of their spread by being ready after the MERS outbreak they had in 2015. They had thousands of tests ready to go out of the gate and then did geospatial contact tracking to basically track the spread from the get go to limit the amount of spreading by tracking early contacts.

Now that we are testing more and more that will be better, but we were behind on having the test ready. We should have had that ready to go in early January to be ready.

Everyone needs to get tested on a regular basis and get antibodies test. If you get antibodies test positive then no more testing needs to be done. That's the only way to get things back to normal as possible. Mass testing, tracking, and coordination of separation between healthy, sick, sick but recovered, and never sick but with antibodies. only way to do that is mass testing. i think most all clinics have test, but need to get these tests to every home.
 

Trojanbulldog19

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the former CDC directors was a little worried that people were counting too much on much on this being around and more people having antibodies that probably there actually was. He was thinking more a long the lines with this German study that there probably wasn't as many people as you think that have the antibodies. He was thinking it would be a small percentage. But then again, you never know until you start the tests.
 

codeDawg

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Nov 13, 2007
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the former CDC directors was a little worried that people were counting too much on much on this being around and more people having antibodies that probably there actually was. He was thinking more a long the lines with this German study that there probably wasn't as many people as you think that have the antibodies. He was thinking it would be a small percentage. But then again, you never know until you start the tests.

This is really the deal and why getting over your skis on "it's been here longer than you think" is dangerous. It honestly doesn't matter how long its been here. There is no way to really estimate the percentage of the population who have had it with any sort of reliability without testing.

Now, one interesting approach from the article was that if you only test healthcare workers, you can make a pretty safe assumption that your immunity rate isn't higher than the rate of local healthcare workers since they are the most exposed. You can't really say that 50% means the population is 50%, but you can assume that if it's 5 or 10%, you aren't very far into it at all.
 

engie

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May 29, 2011
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If the US is at 14%, which is 1/4 of the way to done with this thing by natural herd immunity, id say that would be very good news. Keep it at current rates without overwhelming healthcare for another month and a half and this thing is essentially over. 14% here would be tremendously good news. My wild *** guess is well below 5%
 
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ckDOG

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Dec 11, 2007
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The 14% is disappointing after a breakout.

Would have hoped if were larger, but also know nothing about this town so who knows?

I'm starting now to worry about our transition back to "normal". The White House is making it very clear they want most of the accountability placed on the states. So where does that put us when we start back?

Some states will have rationalized approaches that lean heavily on on testing and preferring essential and vulnerable people first and so on. Others are going to just let it rip and really increase the chance of new hot spots.

We are clearly doing well in distancing and flattening curves etc. The elephant in the room is that is the easy part that takes little leadership. You tell people to stay home and most of them do. Easy. Now work out the right way to get folks back into public again without wiping out those gains in a week or two. Does anyone have confidence that we are going to do this part correctly? I don't.
 

00Dawg

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Nov 10, 2009
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Some numbers from the Navy have come out.

They've tested all sailors on the Roosevelt, but 1,000 tests are still pending. Out of 3,800 crewmen tested, they have have 229 asymptomatic positives, and 187 positive with symptoms.
Now, a carrier is going to have a healthier and younger population than anywhere short of a college campus, so stats on hospitalizations won't be useful, but as far as symptoms go, this might be as close to a real-world controlled test as you could get.
 

paindonthurt_

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Jun 27, 2009
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So out of 2800 test results 14.8% have it? That seems low to me for a “very infectious” disease. a carrier seems like the idea place to be at 50% plus infected.
 

00Dawg

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10.9%, actually. I didn’t word that well; 3,800 test results have already come back.
 

Jeffreauxdawg

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10.9%, actually. I didn’t word that well; 3,800 test results have already come back.


This is strange. I think there is going to be something they figure out down the road in why only certain people get this and so many are asymptomatic. Some genetic marker.
 

jethreauxdawg

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Dec 20, 2010
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Remember the Diamond Princess cruise ship. 3000 people on board, mostly old, 730ish infections, very limited medical support, 7 deaths. You can’t have a worse environment for this virus. 0.2% death rate.
 
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