Great win today obviously but was a lot closer than it needed to be. Stringer needs to get to the bottom of this issue though. It happens way too often that when Rutgers builds a double digit lead in the 2nd half, teams cut it to one possession. I generally would give credit to the other team, but this happens far too often for it to be simply the other team plays better for a stretch. It seems to be lack of focus and hustle because it is second chance points or as in the case today, one player getting hot with our defense never seeming to notice.
inability to put teams away
- Thread starter RUCONN
- Start date
I'm kinda with Redshoes here. My only thought on the second-half letdown is that I'd like to have such a lead that we see our future stars play more, which they would given a 20-point lead.
But with that 1,2,3,4,44 lineup, we're a pretty deadly team. Pretty deadly may be poor grammar but that's what we are, especially with sixth "man" 15. And 20 and 43 and ....
I'd like to see more 10 and 13. Yes, I hope we don't have to play the first round in the B1G Tournament but I'd love to see us against some of the teams far down the priority list so our not-yet-stars get to shine.
But with that 1,2,3,4,44 lineup, we're a pretty deadly team. Pretty deadly may be poor grammar but that's what we are, especially with sixth "man" 15. And 20 and 43 and ....
I'd like to see more 10 and 13. Yes, I hope we don't have to play the first round in the B1G Tournament but I'd love to see us against some of the teams far down the priority list so our not-yet-stars get to shine.
We did win, but one of these days we will miss a foul shot, surrender a three and wind up losing to a team we should have easily beaten.
It also doesn't give the bench players a chance for some floor time.
Worse of all, it is painful viewing for most fans!!
Id ordinarily be on his side too but this has been a consistent issue, not just today's game. It was the first Michigan game, Penn state last week (which I dismissed because it was super bowl sunday), Nebraska last week. Minnesota, iona. and those are the ones off the top of myhead. We are superior to those teams I mentioned. If Maryland was down 15 against us and made a run fine, but these are teams we are flat out better than and the way they "come back" is the same, It's not boxing out and giving up second chance points. allowing oen player open shot after open shot (like today)
It is absolutely an issue that needs to be addressed, because one of these games it's going to come back and haunt the team. A road win against a top 40 RPI team is good, but this team's goals are bigger than good. The talent is there to be a Sweet 16 team but they need more focus and consistency to get there.
Very good point. Yes, today's win was a very solid win on the road, but too often we get a big lead and don't sustain it because of what you stated and this game became waaaaaaaaaaay to close at the end and didn't need to be. The same thing occurred at home against Penn State.
The issue isn't whether or not we're a good team, because in my view, we have the potential to be a great team. The issue is when we are playing well, we need to keep the pedal to the metal and put teams away. It doesn't mean that every game is not going to have its runs and ebbs and flows and lack of focus. But I sure would like to see a 12-14 point lead turn into 15-20 and not turn into a 4-7 point victory.
In 23 games we have yet to lose a game to an inferior team. No WTF losses all year! Pretty damn good if you ask me.
Or to put it another way, 18 times out of 23 we have demonstrated the ability to put teams away when it mattered - when the clock showed triple zeroes.
Or to put it another way, 18 times out of 23 we have demonstrated the ability to put teams away when it mattered - when the clock showed triple zeroes.
Again. For the umpteenth time, it's a WONDERFUL win. In conference, on the road, name brand school, gets us to 9 wins, helps cement us in 3d in the conference. All EXCELLENT stuff. No WTF losses, also great. We haven't been upset, that's GREAT too. We just need to put teams away. You keep going this way, you will eventually lose, and in March, you cant afford to lose. also, people complain about lack of depth, lack of minutes for certain players, they cant play if we constantly have 12 point leads whittled to 2 in 2 minutes flat. It's not a complaint, it's a GREAT problem to have. We should be smoking teams though, like UConn does, like Tennessee does. No, we aren't top 5 level, but we should be CRUSHING teams like Mich especially when we get up 12
I think you are selling teams like Michigan, Nebraska, and Minnesota way too short. BTW, not that RPI is the be all and end all, but all three have better RPIs than RU.
I have been all over this team for a while for blowing double digit leads way too easy and making these games much harder than they need to be
Tonight all I wanted was a win, I was scared of this game because of the coach and the timing of the game before Maryland. The game went much as I thought but I was less concerned about blowing the lead than against Minnesota and Nebraska which were home games and no excuse for blowing those big leads
as others have said having these games close means not a lot of time to develop the bench or work on plays for the post. Those are two issues that will dog this team come NCAA tourney time. You cant just relay on Scaife, Copper and Laney to do all the scoring.
Tonight all I wanted was a win, I was scared of this game because of the coach and the timing of the game before Maryland. The game went much as I thought but I was less concerned about blowing the lead than against Minnesota and Nebraska which were home games and no excuse for blowing those big leads
as others have said having these games close means not a lot of time to develop the bench or work on plays for the post. Those are two issues that will dog this team come NCAA tourney time. You cant just relay on Scaife, Copper and Laney to do all the scoring.
Just one question - what are we doing or not doing that is causing this (in your opinion)? I don't see many games since we moved, but in the past there were seasons where we would play "not to lose", become very conservative, etc. when we had the lead late. BUT what little I have seen that doesn't seem to be the case this year nor does it seem to be what folks are griping about specifically.
I'm just pleased that we are as successful as we are. The three early losses in the B1G scared me, even though I believe Iowa and Maryland are (with RU) the cream of the B1G crop and I think Ohio State is a real comer.
Posted by Doug
Good question.
Without going back to review stats (play-by-play) but not missing a single conference game, I notice that at inside the ten minute mark of the half, sometimes the last two minutes of the half, we allow teams to get back into the game. Mind you, I am just speaking in generalities. Same thing second half. Sometimes we surrender a big lead with about ten to go in the game, keep in to within one or two possessions for several minutes, then push it up to a more palatable lead closing things out.
I think one reason could be that the opponent changes their defense and we take time to adjust....it seems that offensive confusion leads to turnovers and missed shots....even our transition shots and layups are missed. It can go on for several minutes. Eventually the opponent hits a couple of threes: a nine point lead can become three, witness yesterday when they hit a three followed by an "and one." Also, our live ball turnovers and missed shots result in breakaway opportunities for opponents; in this case the saying is reversed: bad offense leads to bad defense.
Our defense has been very good (won't use any superlatives yet because we keep improving) but they can only hold down the fort for so long.
When sensing or experiencing a scoring slump, we need a strategy, a go-to player, even a sub like Cynthia or Shrita to shake things up. I don't care if we have a double digit lead and we trade baskets for awhile, all it takes is a couple of long or lucky threes and we (any team, for that matter) can find themselves in trouble with the clock ticking down.
I am sure that the coaches, or very likely Betnijah, are analyzing this trend and will try to develop answers.
Yes, a win is a win, especially on the road against a tough opponent, but home games like Penn State concern me, only because we are playing with fire.
Lastly, I know I mentioned this in another thread, but the silver lining is that our defense has been superb over the last few minutes when we are holding a lead by a thread. I have seen teams so anxious and nervous that they miss easy bunnies underneath. Rutgers style defense. Now, make those one and one opportunities!!!!
MC1974 I think you are on to something with the changing defenses. obviously, for a team to go on a run, it needs a lack of scoring from one team. we provide that more than occasionally. A lot of it has to do with the larger issues that we have discussed ad-nauseum. No ability to hit 3s, and no Hollivay as our only inside scoring presence and the fact that as much as we all like her, she is inconsistent in terms of scoring. I.e. if we kept scoring at a decent clip, I don't mean every single possession, but I mean not going 4 minutes without a basket, we wouldn't allow 10-0, 12-0 type runs to mediocre teams. Top teams like UConn, Tennessee et al, when the other team is making a run, get the ball to their star and she gets a foul called or makes a basket...I was hoping Copper or Scaife would become that, but it just hasn't happened yet,
the other piece of it is on defense and that is the other part is our defense and hustle. we seem to give up a lot of loose balls and second chance points when teams make their runs and stringer doesn't adjust her defense when an opposing player gets hot. Ive noticed on these "comebacks" the formula generally is . we have a drought, they get a second chance basket then someone gets 3 or 4 open looks from 3 and makes them. and there's your 11-0 run
the other piece of it is on defense and that is the other part is our defense and hustle. we seem to give up a lot of loose balls and second chance points when teams make their runs and stringer doesn't adjust her defense when an opposing player gets hot. Ive noticed on these "comebacks" the formula generally is . we have a drought, they get a second chance basket then someone gets 3 or 4 open looks from 3 and makes them. and there's your 11-0 run
Thank you rudad02.
RUCONN made a point about looking towards a top scorer of ours to make a basket or pick up a foul.
I think Copper and sometimes Laney try to take charge here but either an off-balance shot or miracle highlight film play is attempted; in other words we make terrible shot choices (in those situations where adequate time remains on the clock.) Also, we try too hard to feed the post when this is not a strong part of our offense and turnovers easily result. Think of our turnover to basket and assist ratio in the paint when the ball is forced inside. Rachel makes some nice buckets, Ariel and Christa are simply not scorers, but Laney and Copper are talented in their paint efforts.
I was hoping to see Tyler and Briyona to attempt more drives towards the basket...both are quick, handle the ball, can make layups, and have nice pull-up lane jumpers or floaters. I do realize this is more difficult than it looks when the defense is packed in. (maybe this will lessen the times Tyler feels she has to make that extra pass.)
Also, I notice with almost every team we play, a strategy for their guards to dribble laterally and attempt to turn the corner towards the basket (usually from 15-20 feet) and if nothing is there, hand off to the crossing guard who will try the same thing, over and over in a possession, until we get called for a reach-in or blocking foul. With ball the good handlers that we have, why don't we use this tactic to either create separation or defensive shifts, but mostly to pick up those touch fouls that seem to add to the total and get us into a bonus earlier, not to mention put some opposing players in foul trouble.
This is all fun to view strategy and performance from a fan's point of view, but I am sure that the coaches and players spend waaaaay more time reviewing film, practicing situations, etc. Things that WE think should be attempted may have consequences (like inserting Cynthia for a lengthy time but sacrificing defense, flow, etc.) And I think they may have just a bit more knowledge about the game than we do. Wink face.
RUCONN made a point about looking towards a top scorer of ours to make a basket or pick up a foul.
I think Copper and sometimes Laney try to take charge here but either an off-balance shot or miracle highlight film play is attempted; in other words we make terrible shot choices (in those situations where adequate time remains on the clock.) Also, we try too hard to feed the post when this is not a strong part of our offense and turnovers easily result. Think of our turnover to basket and assist ratio in the paint when the ball is forced inside. Rachel makes some nice buckets, Ariel and Christa are simply not scorers, but Laney and Copper are talented in their paint efforts.
I was hoping to see Tyler and Briyona to attempt more drives towards the basket...both are quick, handle the ball, can make layups, and have nice pull-up lane jumpers or floaters. I do realize this is more difficult than it looks when the defense is packed in. (maybe this will lessen the times Tyler feels she has to make that extra pass.)
Also, I notice with almost every team we play, a strategy for their guards to dribble laterally and attempt to turn the corner towards the basket (usually from 15-20 feet) and if nothing is there, hand off to the crossing guard who will try the same thing, over and over in a possession, until we get called for a reach-in or blocking foul. With ball the good handlers that we have, why don't we use this tactic to either create separation or defensive shifts, but mostly to pick up those touch fouls that seem to add to the total and get us into a bonus earlier, not to mention put some opposing players in foul trouble.
This is all fun to view strategy and performance from a fan's point of view, but I am sure that the coaches and players spend waaaaay more time reviewing film, practicing situations, etc. Things that WE think should be attempted may have consequences (like inserting Cynthia for a lengthy time but sacrificing defense, flow, etc.) And I think they may have just a bit more knowledge about the game than we do. Wink face.
It seems that when games get intense we pull away, this usually happens with about 10 minutes to go. What I see is then around 5 minutes every game, after we have opened what looks like a comfortable lead (lets say 10 pts or so), we let the other team run. The other team doesn't let up, because they are even more desperate, but we do. The game closes back to 2-4 pts with 3 minutes to go, and then we bear down, hit some free throws and win.
Why, IMO it is lack of execution/concentraion offensively. At this point we slow the game down offensively to start to kill the clock and it seems to take us out of our rythym.. Our slow offense has gotten much, much better, and this is the absolute correct thing to do, but I still think we lack a little confidence. On numerous trips we come down, use the clock (correctly), and then turn it over. This also happens at the same time the opponent is becoming desperate and being very aggressive. We don't seem to have figured out the half-court offense with still an attacking attitude yet. I don't think our defense changes much. I said this in a post after the wins at Ark and others early on, we kind of "wait out the game". If you watch closely, we pull away when the games get intense and more up tempo.
Having said all this, we are much, much better now than before. Our half court offense is much more productive, we are working harder at it, and seem to have more confidence. Plus winning these close games against top competition will just add to the confidence. We are definitely improving and trending up.
Why, IMO it is lack of execution/concentraion offensively. At this point we slow the game down offensively to start to kill the clock and it seems to take us out of our rythym.. Our slow offense has gotten much, much better, and this is the absolute correct thing to do, but I still think we lack a little confidence. On numerous trips we come down, use the clock (correctly), and then turn it over. This also happens at the same time the opponent is becoming desperate and being very aggressive. We don't seem to have figured out the half-court offense with still an attacking attitude yet. I don't think our defense changes much. I said this in a post after the wins at Ark and others early on, we kind of "wait out the game". If you watch closely, we pull away when the games get intense and more up tempo.
Having said all this, we are much, much better now than before. Our half court offense is much more productive, we are working harder at it, and seem to have more confidence. Plus winning these close games against top competition will just add to the confidence. We are definitely improving and trending up.
Its difficult to put teams away without bench scoring ,Everybody knows that Rutgers depend on Scaife,Laney and Copper to generate most of the offense.With opponents playing zone scoring is occurring mostly from 10-15 ' jump shots.The Rutgers top scorers are streaky which means there could be scoring lulls which seems to happen in most games.The fact there is very little scoring coming from the point guard and center positions compounds the problem.The positive is that Rutgers is finding ways to pull out these close games especially on the road.The negative is that the national rankings aren't that impressed based on Rutgers hanging around the 18-22 range.
has CVS talked in her interviews about Canty....she just is not bringing the same offense and speed she had before her injury
Against the zone we are relying on 10-15' jump shots, which tend to be streaky, plus the center and point guard positions are lacking on scoring production, per RU-JMM78. makes sense to me.
I don't think I agree your point about the ranking, as is seems the way to move up is to beat teams ranked higher...and opportunities are limited. A win is a win and a loss is a loss.
I don't think I agree your point about the ranking, as is seems the way to move up is to beat teams ranked higher...and opportunities are limited. A win is a win and a loss is a loss.
RU Grad: yes, I think we lose our assertiveness in the half court offense when we have a big lead, and play tentatively and milk the clock. We pass up open shots and are left to settle as the clock wears down. this tentative play can result in turnovers, as we are out of rhythm and make stupid passes.
I think there is a similar approach in football: don't pass the ball because they could intercept it...run out the clock. result? A three and out, the opponent pushes the ball downfield with smart passes and sideline patterns, while the defense of the team that's up sits back to avoid the home run pass. It can backfire real fast.
I think there is a similar approach in football: don't pass the ball because they could intercept it...run out the clock. result? A three and out, the opponent pushes the ball downfield with smart passes and sideline patterns, while the defense of the team that's up sits back to avoid the home run pass. It can backfire real fast.
Agreed. I have made this point before re: slowing our game down in the half-court offense & it costing us. We are very, very tough to handle when we push the pace. Believe we have to continue to play our game, & to play it smartly.
This post was edited on 2/9 10:16 AM by rudad02
See, this is exactly why I don't credit the opposition and consider this an issue because of the way we almost always respond when the lead is cut to 2 or 3. we generally go up 5 then around 7 or 8 with under a minute to go. It feels like we lack focus once we get it to 10. I know when I coach bball, and I know CVS has forgotten more bball than I know, but I always get at the kids to play like it's even and when its 5 get it to 10 when it's 10 push it to 15 and 15 get it to 20. It feels like a flip of a switch and the intensity comes back on defense and we never let the game be tied against teams we are better than.
The answer is to keep improving the half court offense, not to keep running and gunning. At 5 minutes and less, a good team like use should be able to use the clock, keep the lead, and make it very hard for the opposition to catch us. As i said, I think we are getting much better at this (hence the wins against top 25 competition). We are getting better every week.
I do think they're getting better at this. I also think that, much though I like this team, people are assuming that getting a 10-point lead somewhere in a game means that a team is much better than the opposition when that's often not the case. The reality check on this team is that so far it hasn't beaten a top 15 team despite 4 opportunities. It's leaps and bounds better than the team two years ago or even last year, but they're not in the elite yet. (I'm hoping for tomorrow night, of course.)
Also, one thing I've learned from doing the games of interest and looking for things to say in the comments I make is how much ebb and flow there is in most games. There are more examples than you'd think of teams getting 10, 15, even 20 point leads and having to squeeze out a victory at the end or - particularly if the lead is 10-12 points - losing the game entirely. Heck, every week I see at least one game in which team leads by 10 or more at some point and loses by 10 or more.
I have also seen many big leads cut down to nothing, and sometimes the comeback team wins.
We should try to milk the clock in the half court but have some pre-determined plays to put into motion once the clock winds down. I like to think of a screen being set for Tyler at around fifteen feet so she can create a shot, either a pull-up or even a floater. I would avoid a long three because the rebound can kick out and create an easy transition for the defense.
We should try to milk the clock in the half court but have some pre-determined plays to put into motion once the clock winds down. I like to think of a screen being set for Tyler at around fifteen feet so she can create a shot, either a pull-up or even a floater. I would avoid a long three because the rebound can kick out and create an easy transition for the defense.