If we had Cliff...

anon1753890747

All-Conference
Sep 29, 2006
3,891
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As I said last year, and we are beginning to see We have a fab 3, Lathan needs to play, he has the most talent we have had at the 5 since
Jamin James!
We are seeing high IQ beautiful basketball at the 5!
Focus on the incredible team we have and how lucky we are to have the minutes at the 5 to watch this kid.
As I also said bringing in 3 starting freshman on a team at once can sometimes create locker room disharmony. We don’t have to worry about that with the current teams make up.
If we can keep everyone healthy it’s going to awesome to watch!
 

richthedentist

All-American
Aug 2, 2001
11,007
8,558
113
As I said last year, and we are beginning to see We have a fab 3, Lathan needs to play, he has the most talent we have had at the 5 since
Jamin James!
We are seeing high IQ beautiful basketball at the 5!
Focus on the incredible team we have and how lucky we are to have the minutes at the 5 to watch this kid.
As I also said bringing in 3 starting freshman on a team at once can sometimes create locker room disharmony. We don’t have to worry about that with the current teams make up.
If we can keep everyone healthy it’s going to awesome to watch!
You can't even compare the offensive game between Cliff and Lathan; Lathan is so much better on the offensive end not even a comparison
Do we miss Cliff on the defensive end yeah but give Lathan a chance just the difference how he played yesterday vs. the St. Johns game on defense was night and day, now of course Wagner didn't have the bigs that St. Johns did still no comparison
 

JerseyNoles

All-Conference
Jul 28, 2021
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We needed to step up and pay him. We didn’t
My understanding is it wasn't completely about the money
E.g. he wanted to move on

Now, if Bama gave him 1 mil and we offered 3, then obviously, he would have stayed
But my impression is he wanted a fresh start
 
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anon1753890747

All-Conference
Sep 29, 2006
3,891
3,679
72
You can't even compare the offensive game between Cliff and Lathan; Lathan is so much better on the offensive end not even a comparison
Do we miss Cliff on the defensive end yeah but give Lathan a chance just the difference how he played yesterday vs. the St. Johns game on defense was night and day, now of course Wagner didn't have the bigs that St. Johns did still no comparison
All we will miss from Cliff is blocked shots into the stands.
Everything else from lathan is a net positive, his, Bball IQ, and his basketball athleticism will allow for him to improve defensively, especially with the coaching he is now getting.
I would rather be in the situation we are in today at the 5 than we were last year.
Especially how we are trying to play with Ace and Harper.
 

RedTeamUpstream94

All-American
Jan 15, 2021
3,378
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I think most would agree that Cliff would have been a great fit for this team (particularly if used the way that it seems that Alabama will use him) but he’s not here for a combination of: (1) ru not having the $ and/or (2) he wanted to move on.

So let’s move on
 

NewJerseyHawk

Heisman
Jan 11, 2007
24,398
38,659
113
Wrong wrong wrong.. ..

The price was too expensive and he does not fit the style of play for this roster.

I will ask fans to learn the game and ask yourself....

How did Dylan Harper, Jeremiah Williams score yesterday.....by getting out in transition and driving into the paint, by beating their defender.....

If Cliff is on the court, where is he likely to be standing on offense.....

A) 25 feet from the basket ready to shoot 3s, set screens and roll to the basket to shoot 10 footers....??

B) 5 feet from the basket on either block, looking for a pass to try and score??

If the answer is either A OR B, both are negatives for the entire roster or other 4 players....

If it's A, the defender guarding Cliff, if he is 25 feet from the basket, setting a screen to help the guard, the defensive player guarding Cliff, does NOT have to leave the paint. ....because even if Dylan or JWill get past the defender that Cliff sets the pick for, Dylan has to then shoot quickly a 3 OR drive into the paint where the player guarding Cliff is waiting for him.

if its B and if Dylan Harper beats his defender, can he score at the rim, when Cliffs defender just leaves Cliff and tries to block his shot or alter it?? It makes it significantly tougher to have Dylan score, JWill score off the dribble, if they have to drive into the paint and beat their defender AND score over a 6'9 to 6'11 defender.

You also are asking the guard to drive into traffic and score OR make a crisp pass to Cliff to catch and score....Cliff can catch lobs and dunks, but does not have crisp hands where he's fluid around the basket to score.....if he did, he would already be in the NBA.

I don't know how many times it has been explained, this is a new or more updated/modern way of basketball called "5-Out" and Lathan Sommerville is the preferred style of B1G, to play a 5-Out offense. He is simply a better offensive player as a freshman, than Cliff as a 4th or 5th year senior.

Is Cliff a better rebounder and shot blocker than Lathan Sommerville?? Yes, but with every possession on offense with Ogbole, who is a worse version of Cliff when he was a freshman, none of our guards can drive and score or drive and kick, with a traditional center in the paint clogging driving lanes.....there is no drive and kick for a 3 pointer, unless the driver can actually drive and score.....and you cannot drive and score if Cliff is on the court, with his defender in the paint.....so the players guarding the shooters, don't have to worry about the driver actually scoring.

We are trained to complain about things, but they have to make sense.....Cliff with this roster does not help others on offense, become better offensive players.
 

Greene Rice FIG

Heisman
Dec 30, 2005
40,437
23,613
0
All we will miss from Cliff is blocked shots into the stands.
Everything else from lathan is a net positive, his, Bball IQ, and his basketball athleticism will allow for him to improve defensively, especially with the coaching he is now getting.
I would rather be in the situation we are in today at the 5 than we were last year.
Especially how we are trying to play with Ace and Harper.
this is absolute crazy talk. He will be fine against teams like this that don't have a center. On both ends of the court his size will be big issues against most "real" games.

The only negative I took from last night's game was our 5 play on defense.
 

Greene Rice FIG

Heisman
Dec 30, 2005
40,437
23,613
0
Cliff with this roster does not help others on offense, become better offensive players.
I think you forget he led the nation in dunks one year and we have a few players that can actually get in to the paint.

Forgetting offense...he is the missing key on defense.

Sommerville reminds me a lot of Zed Key from OSU. Talented on offense and has all the moves, but the size is going to be an issue. Especially trying to play as a freshman in B1G
 

JerseyNoles

All-Conference
Jul 28, 2021
2,841
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Wrong wrong wrong.. ..

The price was too expensive and he does not fit the style of play for this roster.

I will ask fans to learn the game and ask yourself....

How did Dylan Harper, Jeremiah Williams score yesterday.....by getting out in transition and driving into the paint, by beating their defender.....

If Cliff is on the court, where is he likely to be standing on offense.....

A) 25 feet from the basket ready to shoot 3s, set screens and roll to the basket to shoot 10 footers....??

B) 5 feet from the basket on either block, looking for a pass to try and score??

If the answer is either A OR B, both are negatives for the entire roster or other 4 players....

If it's A, the defender guarding Cliff, if he is 25 feet from the basket, setting a screen to help the guard, the defensive player guarding Cliff, does NOT have to leave the paint. ....because even if Dylan or JWill get past the defender that Cliff sets the pick for, Dylan has to then shoot quickly a 3 OR drive into the paint where the player guarding Cliff is waiting for him.

if its B and if Dylan Harper beats his defender, can he score at the rim, when Cliffs defender just leaves Cliff and tries to block his shot or alter it?? It makes it significantly tougher to have Dylan score, JWill score off the dribble, if they have to drive into the paint and beat their defender AND score over a 6'9 to 6'11 defender.

You also are asking the guard to drive into traffic and score OR make a crisp pass to Cliff to catch and score....Cliff can catch lobs and dunks, but does not have crisp hands where he's fluid around the basket to score.....if he did, he would already be in the NBA.

I don't know how many times it has been explained, this is a new or more updated/modern way of basketball called "5-Out" and Lathan Sommerville is the preferred style of B1G, to play a 5-Out offense. He is simply a better offensive player as a freshman, than Cliff as a 4th or 5th year senior.

Is Cliff a better rebounder and shot blocker than Lathan Sommerville?? Yes, but with every possession on offense with Ogbole, who is a worse version of Cliff when he was a freshman, none of our guards can drive and score or drive and kick, with a traditional center in the paint clogging driving lanes.....there is no drive and kick for a 3 pointer, unless the driver can actually drive and score.....and you cannot drive and score if Cliff is on the court, with his defender in the paint.....so the players guarding the shooters, don't have to worry about the driver actually scoring.

We are trained to complain about things, but they have to make sense.....Cliff with this roster does not help others on offense, become better offensive players.
Long winded as usual
Would Cliff be a massive upgrade over Big O ?
Yes - end of story
 
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RedTeamUpstream94

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Jan 15, 2021
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Long winded as usual
Would Cliff be a massive upgrade over Big O ?
Yes - end of story

Not end of story when you take it to the length that you did …. Final 4 team with Cliff lol

Yes Cliff (if used like bama will) would have been better than O … so much so that it would make RU a final 4 team? Um….no.

But he wasn’t coming back. And if he did would he have accepted (and effectively carried out) a VERY different role at RU?

With this team the ball should never go through Cliff ( it should be all dunks and putbacks)… not a single play to feed him to make his non-existent post moves (like years past). Not one.

Alley-oops, dunks and put backs. That’s it. He seems to have accepted that with his new team… would have accepted that change if he had stayed at RU? I question that.
 
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JerseyNoles

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Jul 28, 2021
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Not end of story when you take it to the length that you did …. Final 4 team with Cliff lol

Yes Cliff (if used like bama will) would have been better than O … so much so that it would make RU a final 4 team? Um….no.
Cliff's O would not be needed on this squad, like it was last year
His D alone (short blocking and rebounding specifically) would be invalueable
 

Greene Rice FIG

Heisman
Dec 30, 2005
40,437
23,613
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Can we replace calling a team as a Final 4 or Sweet 16 team by just saying a team that can end up with a 1 or 2 seed OR 3.4 or 5 seed.

NCAAs are 1 and done tournament and best teams don't always win.

Just getting to the dance can make us a Final 4 team if we go one a 4 (or 5) game winning streak.
 

RUPete

Heisman
Feb 5, 2003
26,841
16,113
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Legit think we would be a Final 4 team with a chance to win it all
Still think we can, and will, go far in the tourney
But with Cliff back, the possibilities would be endless
Jay you're a great poster and fan, but we have to stop this with Cliff. The ship sailed long ago and apparently we didn't have the funds or allocated them elsewhere. We should enjoy what we have now and not lament what could've been.
 
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DC8690

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Feb 8, 2017
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this is absolute crazy talk. He will be fine against teams like this that don't have a center. On both ends of the court his size will be big issues against most "real" games.

The only negative I took from last night's game was our 5 play on defense.
How did Cliff do against Krikke, Ware,Reese, Crowl and of course Edey last year? In the 8 games v Iowa, Indiana Purdue, MD and WI games last year he was outscored by 101 and out rebounded by 33.
 

RuSnp

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Jan 14, 2004
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Can we replace calling a team as a Final 4 or Sweet 16 team by just saying a team that can end up with a 1 or 2 seed OR 3.4 or 5 seed.

NCAAs are 1 and done tournament and best teams don't always win.

Just getting to the dance can make us a Final 4 team if we go one a 4 (or 5) game winning streak.
Well said.
 

JerseyNoles

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Jay you're a great poster and fan, but we have to stop this with Cliff. The ship sailed long ago and apparently we didn't have the funds or allocated them elsewhere. We should enjoy what we have now and not lament what could've been.
You're right - the ship has sailed
I just always think of what could have been, instead of enjoying what we currently have
Point taken
 

RUBlackout

All-American
Mar 11, 2008
10,866
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After watching last nights game I have to say I am glad we turned the page and giving Lathan the ability to make his mark.

I have not seen someone with his size have such great footwork and presence in the lower block on offense AND he has an outside shot on Rutgers teams in recent memory. This will pay dividends for us all season as he gets more experience.

Defensive prowess is definitely lacking but can be taught. I actually saw more boxing out last night than I have all of last season so that is a good sign. I am hopeful here.

Don't get me wrong--Cliff would have been a great asset to this team in transition and for alley oops but as much as we give him praise for defense it was mainly around shot blocking and presence rather than rebounding
 
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JerseyNoles

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Your understanding is about a million dollars off.
Reading tealeaves = his preference was to go elsewhere
Now, we show him big $$ (borderline overpay), we keep him

I'm not the one writing checks
Also, as I'm famous for saying, flags fly forever

But if we sign him, maybe we don't get Dylan or Ace
Not privy to that level

Just wish he was here, but like Pete said, i'll enjoy the ride regardelss
 

365Poster24Seven

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Oct 13, 2022
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Reading tealeaves = his preference was to go elsewhere
Now, we show him big $$ (borderline overpay), we keep him

I'm not the one writing checks
Also, as I'm famous for saying, flags fly forever

But if we sign him, maybe we don't get Dylan or Ace
Not privy to that level

Just wish he was here, but like Pete said, i'll enjoy the ride regardelss
I saw him cry like a baby on senior day. This is all about OUR lack of NIL from this fanbase. Alabama fans like to do more than just talk about it. They contribute mightily and this fanbase slams NIL every chance it gets. He loves Rutgers but a million dollars is a no brainer. Dillan and Ace have nothing to do with this fanbase NIL. If it was up to us and paying them they both would be somewhere else.
 

Scarlet Blind_rivals

All-Conference
Aug 5, 2001
4,602
4,663
62
Wrong wrong wrong.. ..

The price was too expensive and he does not fit the style of play for this roster.

I will ask fans to learn the game and ask yourself....

How did Dylan Harper, Jeremiah Williams score yesterday.....by getting out in transition and driving into the paint, by beating their defender.....

If Cliff is on the court, where is he likely to be standing on offense.....

A) 25 feet from the basket ready to shoot 3s, set screens and roll to the basket to shoot 10 footers....??

B) 5 feet from the basket on either block, looking for a pass to try and score??

If the answer is either A OR B, both are negatives for the entire roster or other 4 players....

If it's A, the defender guarding Cliff, if he is 25 feet from the basket, setting a screen to help the guard, the defensive player guarding Cliff, does NOT have to leave the paint. ....because even if Dylan or JWill get past the defender that Cliff sets the pick for, Dylan has to then shoot quickly a 3 OR drive into the paint where the player guarding Cliff is waiting for him.

if its B and if Dylan Harper beats his defender, can he score at the rim, when Cliffs defender just leaves Cliff and tries to block his shot or alter it?? It makes it significantly tougher to have Dylan score, JWill score off the dribble, if they have to drive into the paint and beat their defender AND score over a 6'9 to 6'11 defender. Hi

You also are asking the guard to drive into traffic and score OR make a crisp pass to Cliff to catch and score....Cliff can catch lobs and dunks, but does not have crisp hands where he's fluid around the basket to score.....if he did, he would already be in the NBA.

I don't know how many times it has been explained, this is a new or more updated/modern way of basketball called "5-Out" and Lathan Sommerville is the preferred style of B1G, to play a 5-Out offense. He is simply a better offensive player as a freshman, than Cliff as a 4th or 5th year senior.

Is Cliff a better rebounder and shot blocker than Lathan Sommerville?? Yes, but with every possession on offense with Ogbole, who is a worse version of Cliff when he was a freshman, none of our guards can drive and score or drive and kick, with a traditional center in the paint clogging driving lanes.....there is no drive and kick for a 3 pointer, unless the driver can actually drive and score.....and you cannot drive and score if Cliff is on the court, with his defender in the paint.....so the players guarding the shooters, don't have to worry about the driver actually scoring.

We are trained to complain about things, but they have to make sense.....Cliff with this roster does not help others on offense, become better offensive players.
To expound on this from last nite, Guards/Wings were 16-19 84.2% at the rim, Dylan 7-8, PJ 2-2, JWill 4-4, Derkack 3-4, Acuff 0-1. Bigs 2-3 66.7%, ZBo 1-1, Latham 1-1, Ogbole 0-1.
18-22 81.8% at the rim

The St John's game was tougher because Ogbole played 21 minutes, mostly in the lane

Alabama w/Cliff(1st game), 24-32 75% at the rim.
Bigs 9-9, G/W 15-23 65.2%

How many threads have been started the last 2-3 years because players aren't hitting their layups or bunnies? All good teams hit over 70% around the rim, 81.8% game 1. It's amazing how easy layups become when there isn't that extra defender in the lane defended a one dimensional big.
 

DC8690

All-Conference
Feb 8, 2017
966
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This ^^^^

Rebounding is a major concern right now.
Please go look at last years stats..... we were out rebounded by Princton (4) Georgetown (11) and St Peters (13) and we only had 2 more rebounds than Howard.
 

Arizona Knight

All-American
Jun 25, 2001
16,675
9,931
56
He does
He's been great so far

But there's a reason he's coming off the bench
And I'd rather have Cliff set the tone rather than Big O

I think the days of him coming off the bench are numbered. He will be starting sooner than any of us imagined.
 

S_Janowski

Heisman
May 24, 2009
13,906
26,499
113
We would be a better team with Cliff and our ceiling would be higher, no doubt.

With that said, if Cliff was here Lathan wouldn’t get the opportunity and minutes that he will be getting.

I expect a lot of growing pains with Lathan and am a bit worried about getting dominated on the glass and defending the pain against bigger teams. But I love what I saw out of Lathan last night.

If we are able to keep him then the minutes and opportunity he’s getting will do wonders for next season.
 

Nycrusupporter

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Jun 8, 2021
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My understanding is it wasn't completely about the money
E.g. he wanted to move on

Now, if Bama gave him 1 mil and we offered 3, then obviously, he would have stayed
But my impression is he wanted a fresh start
I suspect it was much easier for him to accept a secondary role on an experienced veteran team coming off a Final Four appearance, especially given the money on offer, than to do it for two five star freshman. All of these guys have egos.
 
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GoodOl'Rutgers

Heisman
Sep 11, 2006
123,974
19,586
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I think we are getting a taste of what the blue blood programs have had. That is, these guys going with and against each other is going to make them all better. Even when we lose the two one-and-dones, their time here should have a lasting positive effect on those that remain. Then we shall have to see what happens when NIL-deal shopping whispers try to seduce them.