How I'm Judging Pikiell Going Forward

[Rutgers Rah]

Let me just start by saying this is by no means a post for me to yell at others for not thinking like me. Really want to start a discussion here on the team.

Alright so the first three Big Ten games didn't exactly go well. No denying that. We played what seem to be three pretty good Big Ten teams and 2 were on the road which certainly doesn't help. It's obvious this year that we lack in shooting all around and it's translating to foul line futility, which is really going to hurt us on our quest for some Big Ten wins. But for the rest of the season I am judging our head coach in one way. Am I seeing tangible evidence of improvement in this team from the first conference game to the last?

It seems like the last couple of years when the losing started it got worse and worse and worse until the team was barely watchable with 3-5 games left in the conference schedule. Look I don't except us to magically become better at shooting the three or to be completely fluid in our new offensive system, but seeing scoring go up a bit overall and some more foul shots to fall would definitely be nice. And a couple of wins here or there would really be great as well.

Also personally I refuse to compare this team to last year's 7 scholarship, poorly coached, and completely different team. That's just a personal thing. I don't mind when people make those comparisons, I just see too many differences in players, coaching, and style to make a team comparison. Obviously comparing results against common opponents is a totally fair argument point, but I'm trying to have my eyes set on the future.

Sorry for the long winded nature of this post, not really my thing but as you can tell from the time of this I can't sleep at all. So that brings me to the discussion I hoped to start. How are you judging our head coach? Are you looking in the future and using multiple years before you judge at all? Going game by game? Just really interested to get a flavor of the board. Nice to have a lot of threads going on our Bball team again.

 

[BillyC80]

Usually you can see during games what coaches emphasize in practice. In Pike's case you can clearly see an emphasis on defense and rebounding, but 3-pt shooting, foul shots and taking care of the basketball not so much. So for me, if we improve in all three of those areas going forward, we will undoubtedly win some conference games and that's ultimately how coach should be judged.

 

[TDIrish27]

I'll evaluate him by looking where the team is at after 3 seasons.

 

[read option]

You have to take the B1G slate into consideration about not only Pike but the team as well. If we end up something like 2-16 in the B1G then that means at least two things. 1) Our OOC schedule was just that bad and our record was a product of that. 2) We did not get better over the course of the season.

 

[RUJMM78]

I will judge him like every head coach should be ,namely won/loss record against league competition.Perception and recruiting matters and they are impacted for good or bad based on the won/loss record.Everything else mentioned is just kicking the can down the road and starting the same conversation a year later .Such a approach hasn't worked at Rutgers for decades.

 

[knight82]

I will judge him like every head coach should be ,namely won/loss record against league competition.Perception and recruiting matters and they are impacted for good or bad based on the won/loss record.Everything else mentioned is just kicking the can down the road and starting the same conversation a year later .Such a approach hasn't worked at Rutgers for decades.

So you're expecting Pikiell to have a winning Big Ten record with this group of players. Good luck with that. John Wooden wouldn't have a winning Big Ten record with this group.

 

[djrc89]

It would be great to steal some wins and have some solid losses with a frenzied defense at the end of the season. However it must be difficult to play with that kind of intensity night in and night out when the expectation is a 20 point loss. Hard to make any kind of judgement. He needs to recruit difference makers.

 

[DocRU]

Won loss record not until Year 3. Recruiting every year.
Eyeball test so far says that Pikiell's a real college coach. Similar to Tom Young and Gary Waters. Unlike the others.
A guy like Pikiell and his staff, with new facilities on the way has a chance.
But please win a conference game this year!

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

I think (or know) that the programs that we are being evaluated against are ALL recruiting at a level that is far beyond what RU has typically recruited at. That means that there has to be 3 consecutive classes recruited (2017, 2018 and 2019, that is in place) before you can really confirm what may be in place.

I don't know how good Pat Chambers is as a coach at Penn State, but to be fair this is his 2nd or 3rd class with starter caliber players that he can point to.

2011–12 Penn State 12–20 4–14 T–11th
2012–13 Penn State 10–21 2–16 12th
2013–14 Penn State 16–18 6–12 T–10th CBI Quarterfinal
2014–15 Penn State 18–16 4–14 13th
2015–16 Penn State 16–16 7–11 10th
2016–17 Penn State 10–7 2–2
Penn State: 82–96 (.461) 25–69 (.266)

This is his resume after 2 years at Boston University at PSU.....I think it's relevant because it's a similar program without a basketball history of winning and if we are looking at it fairly, I don't see any NCAA births, any NIT births and his ceiling in 4 B1G seasons before Year 5 was 6-12....

This is the path we are on and before anyone starts with the "basketball is easier than football nonsense", the only way PSU is going to escape the 5 to 7 win B1G category, is with another recruiting class after these last 2 classes to supplement their last banner class.

I am not at all saying Pikiell should have to wait until Year 5 to land a class at the caliber of Tony Carr, Stevens, Bostick and Hampton....(Hampton was a Tope 150 kid that left earlier this year as a Class of 2016 recruit and went JUCO). But to jump start things, it will be a minor miracle but we are asking for RU to land a class at this caliber of player would be some of the names we are hearing about for the 2018 and 2019 class in and around the region and New England.

If that recruiting haul of a 4* in Reid or other names like Jalen Carey, Muhammad and countless other big names go elsewhere, it will be up to Pikiell to land a similar crop of players that may not be at this local level, but I would hope that Geo Baker and Doucoure are two of those building blocks that are sophomores or juniors, once the calvary arrives to supplement them as the 2018-2019 recruits.....those 2018 or 2019 recruits that will have a facility built, have seen 2-3 years of Pikiell's efforts and have something to compare it to.

The true difference maker to me is the RAC and the practice facility.....those are fan based and future based items.....game days or nights need to be loud and that gives the recruits juice to know they are difference makers when they arrive.....what made the differences in the Schiano years in football were "event" type of home wins.....or event types of games, even when RU didn't win....a full house sells recruits, and creates buzz.....and the RAC, even as it may appear from the outside, still has the energy in the bones, to create havoc for opponents......just need the fans, students to fill it and I think that's the quickest way to sell recruiting.....

 

[Rutgers Rah]

You have to take the B1G slate into consideration about not only Pike but the team as well. If we end up something like 2-16 in the B1G then that means at least two things. 1) Our OOC schedule was just that bad and our record was a product of that. 2) We did not get better over the course of the season.

I would think it means #1. We played just an awful OOC.

 

[Rutgers Rah]

Won loss record not until Year 3. Recruiting every year.
Eyeball test so far says that Pikiell's a real college coach. Similar to Tom Young and Gary Waters. Unlike the others.
A guy like Pikiell and his staff, with new facilities on the way has a chance.
But please win a conference game this year!

I agree that he cannot go winless this year if anything just for perception sake it would be really bad for the program.

 

[NBKnight]

You have to take the B1G slate into consideration about not only Pike but the team as well. If we end up something like 2-16 in the B1G then that means at least two things. 1) Our OOC schedule was just that bad and our record was a product of that. 2) We did not get better over the course of the season.

1 was a given and disagree with 2.

 

[RUinFla]

Our players are not up to the level of other B1G teams. Other teams are faster, more athletic, have better shooters. When you have lesser talent, you start with defense and effort. It will take time. Did you think 4-stars would be flocking to RU, given our history the last decade? Good players want to go to a prestige program where they will play with other good players, get good buzz and make the NCAA's. Why should they come to RU just yet? And why should a kid that plays basketball at a New Jersey school consider us ahead of UNC or Michigan?
All our players have flaws. They can only improve so much. They are going to miss shots, look clumsy at times, and make mistakes. Live with it. They play hard and deserve our support. Geez, the bandwagon is looking less full these days as the sunshine soldiers drop off.
TL

 

[RUJMM78]

So you're expecting Pikiell to have a winning Big Ten record with this group of players. Good luck with that. John Wooden wouldn't have a winning Big Ten record with this group.

I didn't say having a winning B1G record but in my preseason prediction of 4 league wins would be a sign of progress.

 

[higgins3]

I plan on letting Pikiell do his job, which he has shown to be successful at.

As long as its competitive. I am sure there will be improvement year to year.

 

[mikefla]

I wont judge coach P until year 3 either.

The Iowa game was winnable. We played better as a team for most of the game but THEIR stars stepped it up when the game wound down. Jok is the #1 scorer in the B10

I lost count how many times gettys threw the ball away or fumbled a REB(he was 1-6 shooting),,,,
even sanders lost the ball several times come crunch time...his drives were just terrible

Big time players see a chance to win & they UP their game
our guys work well most game but just hold on for dear life come crunch time in B10 games

I look forward to see who coach P brings in the next 2 years

 

[bac2therac]

I think (or know) that the programs that we are being evaluated against are ALL recruiting at a level that is far beyond what RU has typically recruited at. That means that there has to be 3 consecutive classes recruited (2017, 2018 and 2019, that is in place) before you can really confirm what may be in place.

I don't know how good Pat Chambers is as a coach at Penn State, but to be fair this is his 2nd or 3rd class with starter caliber players that he can point to.

2011–12 Penn State 12–20 4–14 T–11th
2012–13 Penn State 10–21 2–16 12th
2013–14 Penn State 16–18 6–12 T–10th CBI Quarterfinal
2014–15 Penn State 18–16 4–14 13th
2015–16 Penn State 16–16 7–11 10th
2016–17 Penn State 10–7 2–2
Penn State: 82–96 (.461) 25–69 (.266)

This is his resume after 2 years at Boston University at PSU.....I think it's relevant because it's a similar program without a basketball history of winning and if we are looking at it fairly, I don't see any NCAA births, any NIT births and his ceiling in 4 B1G seasons before Year 5 was 6-12....

This is the path we are on and before anyone starts with the "basketball is easier than football nonsense", the only way PSU is going to escape the 5 to 7 win B1G category, is with another recruiting class after these last 2 classes to supplement their last banner class.

I am not at all saying Pikiell should have to wait until Year 5 to land a class at the caliber of Tony Carr, Stevens, Bostick and Hampton....(Hampton was a Tope 150 kid that left earlier this year as a Class of 2016 recruit and went JUCO). But to jump start things, it will be a minor miracle but we are asking for RU to land a class at this caliber of player would be some of the names we are hearing about for the 2018 and 2019 class in and around the region and New England.

If that recruiting haul of a 4* in Reid or other names like Jalen Carey, Muhammad and countless other big names go elsewhere, it will be up to Pikiell to land a similar crop of players that may not be at this local level, but I would hope that Geo Baker and Doucoure are two of those building blocks that are sophomores or juniors, once the calvary arrives to supplement them as the 2018-2019 recruits.....those 2018 or 2019 recruits that will have a facility built, have seen 2-3 years of Pikiell's efforts and have something to compare it to.

The true difference maker to me is the RAC and the practice facility.....those are fan based and future based items.....game days or nights need to be loud and that gives the recruits juice to know they are difference makers when they arrive.....what made the differences in the Schiano years in football were "event" type of home wins.....or event types of games, even when RU didn't win....a full house sells recruits, and creates buzz.....and the RAC, even as it may appear from the outside, still has the energy in the bones, to create havoc for opponents......just need the fans, students to fill it and I think that's the quickest way to sell recruiting.....

hits the nail on the end. The Chambers progression is basically what we are probably looking at here. Its going to take more than 5 years. Basketball is just as tough as football to rebuild if not tougher given our perception. I totally agree that it takes 3 straight classes and one of those classes in his 4th year has to be sprinkled in with top 100 players. I hope that year 6 Pike is able to get us into the tournament. People laughed when Waters and Hurley said it took 7 years, and when I said that Jordan would need 7 years. Yes for a program this bad with poor perception among recruits thats how long it takes, You see RU is improved this year but thats still not going to be good enough to give them more than 3 league wins. Progress will be slow, these players we have now will already graduate by the time RU goes to the NCAA but this is the foundation and bridge being built for those future players

 

[RUJMM78]

I understand the mantra that patience is required but in a power conference time is of the essence .Rutgers must regain relevance as a athletic department especially with football and mens basketball which are the primary revenue generators.Perception matters in sports and more importantly winning against league competition. Hobbs understands the situation and hopefully will exert pressure on meeting time frames for construction of the practice facility and other projects planned to upgrade facilities.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I

hits the nail on the end. The Chambers progression is basically what we are probably looking at here. Its going to take more than 5 years. Basketball is just as tough as football to rebuild if not tougher given our perception. I totally agree that it takes 3 straight classes and one of those classes in his 4th year has to be sprinkled in with top 100 players. I hope that year 6 Pike is able to get us into the tournament. People laughed when Waters and Hurley said it took 7 years, and when I said that Jordan would need 7 years. Yes for a program this bad with poor perception among recruits thats how long it takes, You see RU is improved this year but thats still not going to be good enough to give them more than 3 league wins. Progress will be slow, these players we have now will already graduate by the time RU goes to the NCAA but this is the foundation and bridge being built for those future players

and success is not linear. 2 steps forward, 1 back, 1 forward, 2 sideways, 1 forward..............