Guards Win NCAA Titles!!! R-E-L-A-X

TheWyldKat_rivals45219

All-American
Mar 13, 2016
5,831
5,373
61
The fact that Coach Cal is still trying to get a re-class of a big guy makes me believe that’s what we need in order to take us to the next level and win a natty. Hopefully Dante decides to re-class and join this group. If not I’m crossing my fingers that Ej or Nick has a breakout year and can contribute in the paint.

It’s crazy how many bigs Cal has missed out on this year. I can’t understand it.
 
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LineSkiCat14

Heisman
Aug 5, 2015
38,899
60,994
113
Guards win titles when they have serviceable bigs. I hope I’m wrong but I saw nothing of the sort out either last yr. I’m praying for a reclass

See I think EJ and Richards showed that they can at least be serviceable next year, along with Sestina. That should be enough while still having Whitney and Brooks.. 6'7 6'8 guys.

Honestly, only a handful of teams could even expose our frontcourt and get the win. At the moment, that would be Kansas and.. maybe Duke. Aside from 2-3 other surprise frontcourts, there isn't another group of big-bodies that would dominate our guys to the point that we lose. Could Wiseman and DJ prove better? Sure, but that doesn't mean they are so much better that they surpass our guard play.
 

Mike-D

Heisman
Jul 14, 2001
50,071
74,328
113
Of the last six champions, I'd say, trying to be objective, Kentucky's front court next year is better, or at least as good as, four of them: 2019, 2018, 2016, 2014. And the overall level of competition is definitely lower than 2015, and probably lower than 2017.


Our front is not as good or better than:

2013-14
2018-19

Really not close either.
 
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Xception

Heisman
Apr 17, 2007
26,407
22,344
0
Most of those guards listed could shoot and carry a team, not talking about spot up shooters either as they could get their own shot. To use that as example means we would need the same type of guards. How many of our guards can create their own? Just having guards who can hit an open shot isn’t the same thing, we’ve had good shooters who can’t get their shot off.
 

Mike-D

Heisman
Jul 14, 2001
50,071
74,328
113
So, Kentucky's front court won't be even close to as good as Connecticut's front court of Philip Nolan and Amida Brimrah who scored a combined zero points in the championship game? If you throw in 6'8" small forward (as he was listed) DeAndre Daniels, the front court scored eight points.

I think junior Nick Richards, sophomore EJ Montgomery, senior Nate Sestina and, since we are counting SFs who can play some 4, freshman Keion Brooks will be at least close to that good.

I don't have time to analyze Virginia's front court, but at a glance the only player who got serious minutes who was listed over 6'7" was 6'9" Diakite. He's a decent player but to say a front court with one contributor 6'9" or taller is clearly superior to what Kentucky will put on the floor strikes me as unlikely. That was a team totally built around its guards.

I read your original post wrong. I thought you were comparing to past UK teams.
 

Burly

All-American
Sep 3, 2002
17,130
8,634
113
Its all about the guards and wings
Hagans simply isn't good enough
He's a football player playing hoops
The other guys are athletic who look great in pick up basketball but are to young
No final four with this group
 

UKrazycat2_rivals

All-American
Apr 13, 2009
7,550
9,127
0
Its all about the guards and wings
Hagans simply isn't good enough
He's a football player playing hoops
The other guys are athletic who look great in pick up basketball but are to young
No final four with this group


 
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RobJones1978

All-Conference
Sep 1, 2018
814
1,105
0
I hope I’m wrong but I just see this team as being similar to 2 years ago. A good team with obvious deficiencies. I’d guess around 8-9 losses and a sweet 16 exit.
 

tmuck

All-Conference
Oct 2, 2009
10,982
3,849
0
I hope I’m wrong but I just see this team as being similar to 2 years ago. A good team with obvious deficiencies. I’d guess around 8-9 losses and a sweet 16 exit.
And I see your team (UL) being a lot like last year. Double digit losses, and (If you're not banned from the tourney). Getting bounced in the 1st or 2nd round. There's not a more overrated roster in college basketball than your squad. You'll find out soon enough.
 
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RobJones1978

All-Conference
Sep 1, 2018
814
1,105
0
And I see your team (UL) being a lot like last year. Double digit loses, and (If you're not banned from the tourney). Getting bounced in the 1st or 2nd round. There's not a more overrated roster in college basketball than your squad. You'll find out soon enough.

You small minded people are so predictable.
 

caneintally

Heisman
Oct 1, 2002
27,455
17,056
0
Whats so funny about this thread is UK has the best front court in the SEC . No one has 4 players as good as Nick , EJ , Brooks or especially Sestina . UF has the best starters at the 4 and 5 but UK has a better group. Any top 25 team would kill for EJ or Nick. I do think we add Dante but that is for depth and to let Brooks play the 3 which he wants to play more .
 
Jul 26, 2003
21,180
11,162
0
Maxey already showing leadership skills, big time for a freshman. Our guards and wings should be OK. Mostly concerned about scoring from the bigs because that could kill us.
 

Poetax

Heisman
Apr 4, 2002
29,410
20,887
0
Its all about the guards and wings
Hagans simply isn't good enough
He's a football player playing hoops
The other guys are athletic who look great in pick up basketball but are to young
No final four with this group




I thought only Willie played football. :)
 

bucsrule8872

Heisman
May 30, 2005
24,397
29,352
0
Our guards/wings will be fine.

It all hinges on Montgomery, IMHO.

We need him to become a consistent scorer to complement those guys.
 

ManitouDan_anon

Heisman
Dec 7, 2006
20,073
32,433
0
It’s getting old that people are expecting EJ , Nick and Sestina to be the second coming of Bird , Mchale and Parish . You guys are setting your self for disappointment . They may not hurt us but to expect things from them that are not reasonable is just going to leave you pissed off at them . And I don’t want that . Blackshear averaged more than nick and EJ Combined . But we are now the best in the conference . Damn homers , be reasonable
 
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kyjeff1

Heisman
Sep 8, 2012
50,642
70,951
113
You can't just single out teams and say "it's a guards game, we will be fine". It doesn't work that way.

Now, if we have a guard that goes off like Dante (Nova 2018), UConn 2011 (Shabazz) and UConn 2014 (Napier), that's different.

But it comes down to matchups.

Look what happened to our 2016 team. We had great guards. Ulis and Murray could carve you up, but instead of hitting another gear, they were neutralized, because IU didn't have to worry about our frontcourt. We were a 1 dimensional team and were an easy out.

We need everyone to row the boat equally. I think EJ will turn the corner, he just needed more playing time, but the question is, will he be great at scoring, defending AND rebounding? 2 out of 3 ain't bad (credit to Meatloaf), but in this case, he needs to do all 3 proficiently or there will be teams that will expose that weakness.

I really think he's the key, he's the guy that needs to draw attention away from our guards, so they can create.

This is a sweet 16 team if EJ duds or if Cal doesn’t land another stud 4 or 5.

Missing on Blackshear hurt. IMO, Cal needed to find a way to get that guy, the other options for us are kind of meh.
 

Cats192

Heisman
Apr 22, 2011
14,889
17,788
93
The problem is--if you have the best guards but can't guard opposing bigs--you'll lose along the way.
 

Cats192

Heisman
Apr 22, 2011
14,889
17,788
93
Taking it further:

We had the best back court in the country in Ulis and Murray. We lost because we couldn't guard IU's bigs.

Bigs matter.
 

JayCatz44

Heisman
May 14, 2003
20,375
15,314
113
It's been proven over and over that you don't need great big men to win titles. It can be done without them.

UK's weakest frontcourt team since Cal has been here was the 2016 Skal team. Outside of the 2012 team, that 2016 team had the best offensive efficiency despite a weak frontcourt. They just sucked defensively.
 

CatsPaws270

Heisman
Dec 7, 2015
24,553
64,180
113
You can't just single out teams and say "it's a guards game, we will be fine". It doesn't work that way.

Now, if we have a guard that goes off like Dante (Nova 2018), UConn 2011 (Shabazz) and UConn 2014 (Napier), that's different.

But it comes down to matchups.

Look what happened to our 2016 team. We had great guards. Ulis and Murray could carve you up, but instead of hitting another gear, they were neutralized, because IU didn't have to worry about our frontcourt. We were a 1 dimensional team and were an easy out.

We need everyone to row the boat equally. I think EJ will turn the corner, he just needed more playing time, but the question is, will he be great at scoring, defending AND rebounding? 2 out of 3 ain't bad (credit to Meatloaf), but in this case, he needs to do all 3 proficiently or there will be teams that will expose that weakness.

I really think he's the key, he's the guy that needs to draw attention away from our guards, so they can create.

This is a sweet 16 team if EJ duds or if Cal doesn’t land another stud 4 or 5.

Missing on Blackshear hurt. IMO, Cal needed to find a way to get that guy, the other options for us are kind of meh.
2016 only had guards and no scoring outside of those 2. The lack of another scoring threat doomed us more than lack of post play.

Ulis and Murray...paired with Zay BRICKscoe, Charles Matthews, Dom Hawkins, Marcus Lee, Humphries, SkaLOL, Mulder, and post ACL Poythress.Derek Willis finally came on strong late to provide an outside threat, but then his injury really left us without any other shooting.

They had 3 30%+ 3-point shooters and Poythress was just around 30%.
 
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zannmann

Heisman
Feb 17, 2006
23,191
14,786
0
Ulis and Murray second round exit say hello. It takes an entire team and we are weak in the post.
 
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kyjeff1

Heisman
Sep 8, 2012
50,642
70,951
113
2016 only had guards and no scoring outside of those 2. The lack of another scoring threat doomed us more than lack of post play.

Ulis and Murray...paired with Zay BRICKscoe, Charles Matthews, Dom Hawkins, Marcus Lee, Humphries, SkaLOL, Mulder, and post ACL Poythress.Derek Willis finally came on strong late to provide an outside threat, but then his injury really left us without any other shooting.

They had 3 30%+ 3-point shooters and Poythress was just around 30%.
Exactly, but anyone that thinks we can win anything of note with just great guard play, hasn't been paying attention.

If EJ, NR and Sestina are the same players tgey were last season, we won't be that much different than 2016.

I get it, EJ and NR will certainly improve, but the amount of improvement that they will need in order for our front court to be good enough to get to a final four, is more than what you typically see at tge college level.

PJ's improvement from his freshman to sophomore year was incredible, he totally changed his body. But he had post moves his freshman year that EJ never showed. EJ has a long way to go to get to the level PJ played at last year and NR… .yeah, I don't think he'll ever get to PJ's level.

I just think our frontcourt guys have too far to go to do what is needed to take UK to the FF. It's harder than most think.

Problem is, those guys will show NBA scouts enough to jump to the NBA. We won't see a junior EJ or a senior NR unfortunately.
 

bucsrule8872

Heisman
May 30, 2005
24,397
29,352
0
Ulis and Murray second round exit say hello. It takes an entire team and we are weak in the post.

True.

It was in the post on the DEFENSIVE end where we lost that game. We had no one to even slow down Bryant.

I would think Richards, Montgomery, and Sestina would at least make a guy like Bryant break a sweat.
 

bucsrule8872

Heisman
May 30, 2005
24,397
29,352
0
It's been proven over and over that you don't need great big men to win titles. It can be done without them.

UK's weakest frontcourt team since Cal has been here was the 2016 Skal team. Outside of the 2012 team, that 2016 team had the best offensive efficiency despite a weak frontcourt. They just sucked defensively.

Exactly.

The problem was DEFENDING the post, not scoring in the post.

Bryant killed us inside in that loss.
 
Jun 22, 2019
434
917
93
Exactly, but anyone that thinks we can win anything of note with just great guard play, hasn't been paying attention.

If EJ, NR and Sestina are the same players tgey were last season, we won't be that much different than 2016.

I get it, EJ and NR will certainly improve, but the amount of improvement that they will need in order for our front court to be good enough to get to a final four, is more than what you typically see at tge college level.

PJ's improvement from his freshman to sophomore year was incredible, he totally changed his body. But he had post moves his freshman year that EJ never showed. EJ has a long way to go to get to the level PJ played at last year and NR… .yeah, I don't think he'll ever get to PJ's level.

I just think our frontcourt guys have too far to go to do what is needed to take UK to the FF. It's harder than most think.

Problem is, those guys will show NBA scouts enough to jump to the NBA. We won't see a junior EJ or a senior NR unfortunately.

Think you're forgetting that 2016 team was a possession away from beating Kansas in Phog and that Kansas ended up being a possession away from beating the eventual national champs Villanova. It's all about matchups and that team was just not capable of hanging with anybody who had a serviceable big man. That 2016 team certainly had the capability of making a final four it was just dependent on getting the right matchups and Murray/Ulis getting hot.

I see no similarities between 2016 and 2019 just because of depth and experience. Maxey will be on Knight/Murray's level and Hagans will take that sophomore step. Quickley will be much improved, Juzang will have enormous upside, and not sure if Allen will play but he could provide shooting off bench. Whitney has a lot of potential and so does Brooks. EJ showed flashes and I agree he will need to develop some type of go to move down low to be productive but I believe he will. NR can provide rebounding and shot-blocking and Sestina will add experience and shooting. Think some people forget he averaged 16 and 9 last year and was right behind Blackshear as number #2 grad transfer.

I also think if Cal was not satisfied with his bigs he would have gotten Blackshear. The comment he made where he said "if we add someone great if we don't then we're fine" is pretty telling to me that he's fine with where we are at.

By the way, the front courts of Texas Tech and Virginia combined for a whopping 17 points in the title game and the other two teams who made the final four had the best PG (Mich St) and the best set of guards (Auburn). The teams who win in March have great guards that can take over games late and the big men serve more as role players which is what I think NR, EJ, and Sestina will provide.
 

kyjeff1

Heisman
Sep 8, 2012
50,642
70,951
113
Think you're forgetting that 2016 team was a possession away from beating Kansas in Phog and that Kansas ended up being a possession away from beating the eventual national champs Villanova. It's all about matchups and that team was just not capable of hanging with anybody who had a serviceable big man. That 2016 team certainly had the capability of making a final four it was just dependent on getting the right matchups and Murray/Ulis getting hot.

I see no similarities between 2016 and 2019 just because of depth and experience. Maxey will be on Knight/Murray's level and Hagans will take that sophomore step. Quickley will be much improved, Juzang will have enormous upside, and not sure if Allen will play but he could provide shooting off bench. Whitney has a lot of potential and so does Brooks. EJ showed flashes and I agree he will need to develop some type of go to move down low to be productive but I believe he will. NR can provide rebounding and shot-blocking and Sestina will add experience and shooting. Think some people forget he averaged 16 and 9 last year and was right behind Blackshear as number #2 grad transfer.

I also think if Cal was not satisfied with his bigs he would have gotten Blackshear. The comment he made where he said "if we add someone great if we don't then we're fine" is pretty telling to me that he's fine with where we are at.

By the way, the front courts of Texas Tech and Virginia combined for a whopping 17 points in the title game and the other two teams who made the final four had the best PG (Mich St) and the best set of guards (Auburn). The teams who win in March have great guards that can take over games late and the big men serve more as role players which is what I think NR, EJ, and Sestina will provide.
The difference is the NCAAT is a different animal. The pressure is higher and it's a completely different stage.

That 2016 KU team, on paper, was miles better than Indiana, but IU beat us easily in the tournament even though we had KU on the ropes in Allen Fieldhouse.

Bryant pounded us on the glass and there was nothing we could do about it. Plus, our all star guards kind of fizzled out in the IU game.

You have a lot of things in your post that you're thinking are definites.

-Juzang will have enormous upside… I'm not sure what that upside is, do you? Everyone thinks he's the next SGA or Herro. There's certainly no guarantee there.

-Maxey is going to be like Knight and/or Murray. Yeah, well, he's supposed to be very good, but you're putting him up there with some top notch shooters. This is probably your prediction with the most realistic possibility of happening. Murray was a guy that played with grown men before he came to UK, Maxey is good, but Murray just signed a max deal for a reason. Are you taking Maxey over Murray? You can't, because you don't know.

-EJ showed flashes… flashes of what? He's talented, but what are you eluding to here? Is he going to be better than a senior Poythress? We don't know. I hope so, but you can't say he will be.

-Hagans is going to take that Sophomore step. Does this mean he's going to be a great shooter.or something? Hopefully he won't turn the ball over like he did in 19, but he's no Tyler Ulis.

-Quickly will be much improved… we said the same thing about Charles Matthews and Mychal Mulder?

-Nate Sestina will add experience and shooting… well, he played at Bucknell. Yeah, he's been in college, but he hasn't had to play legit power 5 competition night in and night out like he's about to. He's certainly going to be more mature and should definitely add some stability, but he's going to need time to adjust too.

As far as what the UVA and Texas Tech bigs did lasy year, you can't compare UK to UVA, they play a stifling pack-line defense, they had stud guards that hit open threes and they were a veteran team.

Texas Tech had a senior Tariq Owens that exploded in the tournament. maybe EJ can do the same, I'm not sure. They also had senior pg Matt Mooney. Now, if Hagans performs like Mooney did in the tournament, we may not need much more than a few bench players to help him out. Mooney lit it up in the tournament. Then there was Jared Culver. Kid was a stud, was held in check for large stretches, but hit shots when he needed to.

UK could certainly follow the path set by Texas Tech, but runs like that don't happen all that often. UK did that in the 2014 tournament. It was magical, but rare.

Look, there's no doubt that UK will be talented, but we see this every year. We're still very young and I still think we are missing 3 very key things: a stud big, outside shooting and senior leadership.
 
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JayCatz44

Heisman
May 14, 2003
20,375
15,314
113
The difference is the NCAAT is a different animal. The pressure is higher and it's a completely different stage.

That 2016 KU team, on paper, was miles better than Indiana, but IU beat us easily in the tournament even though we had KU on the ropes in Allen Fieldhouse.

Bryant pounded us on the glass and there was nothing we could do about it. Plus, our all star guards kind of fizzled out in the IU game.

You have a lot of things in your post that you're thinking are definites.

-Juzang will have enormous upside… I'm not sure what that upside is, do you? Everyone thinks he's the next SGA or Herro. There's certainly no guarantee there.

-Maxey is going to be like Knight and/or Murray. Yeah, well, he's supposed to be very good, but you're putting him up there with some top notch shooters. This is probably your prediction with the most realistic possibility of happening. Murray was a guy that played with grown men before he came to UK, Maxey is good, but Murray just signed a max deal for a reason. Are you taking Maxey over Murray? You can't, because you don't know.

-EJ showed flashes… flashes of what? He's talented, but what are you eluding to here? Is he going to be better than a senior Poythress? We don't know. I hope so, but you can't say he will be.

-Hagans is going to take that Sophomore step. Does this mean he's going to be a great shooter.or something? Hopefully he won't turn the ball over like he did in 19, but he's no Tyler Ulis.

-Quickly will be much improved… we said the same thing about Charles Matthews and Mychal Mulder?

-Nate Sestina will add experience and shooting… well, he played at Bucknell. Yeah, he's been in college, but he hasn't had to play legit power 5 competition night in and night out like he's about to. He's certainly going to be more mature and should definitely add some stability, but he's going to need time to adjust too.

As far as what the UVA and Texas Tech bigs did lasy year, you can't compare UK to UVA, they play a stifling pack-line defense, they had stud guards that hit open threes and they were a veteran team.

Texas Tech had a senior Tariq Owens that exploded in the tournament. maybe EJ can do the same, I'm not sure. They also had senior pg Matt Mooney. Now, if Hagans performs like Mooney did in the tournament, we may not need much more than a few bench players to help him out. Mooney lit it up in the tournament. Then there was Jared Culver. Kid was a stud, was held in check for large stretches, but hit shots when he needed to.

UK could certainly follow the path set by Texas Tech, but runs like that don't happen all that often. UK did that in the 2014 tournament. It was magical, but rare.

Look, there's no doubt that UK will be talented, but we see this every year. We're still very young and I still think we are missing 3 very key things: a stud big, outside shooting and senior leadership.
No offense, but what you just said could apply for every team in the top 25. However, you're being pessimistic just to be pessimistic. At least your comments read that way.
 

Hoskins91_rivals

All-Conference
Jun 12, 2011
6,750
1,619
50
I think the people who are expecting our front court to be great are being unrealistic, but we don’t need them to be great. Rebound decently and be solid on defense. All our talent, especially offensively, is clearly on the perimeter.
 
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